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 Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pastor |
Memory03 |
in most of our established churches today?
You know what I mean, the clothesline style of preaching. The "Holiness or Hell" style of preaching. Could this be why some men/women are not fitting in in today's church?
Is that type of preaching more important than an "Assimilation" style of preaching?
Do we want to go back to the days when we were more of an exclusive than an inclusive church?
What say You?
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Memory03
8233 post at the original Acts Board...
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5/1/06 9:01 am
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| Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas |
TheoloJohn |
This is an area in which I find myself kind of in the middle. I definitely believe and teach/preach that without holiness no man shall see God, but I have no use for "clothesline" preaching whatsoever. I find the most that can be said is that the New Testament standard is modesty and moderation. But I definitely do preach "holiness or hell," because that's precisely what the Bible teaches.
If it "hurts" me or not is not for me to worry about. I seek GOD's approval on my ministry, not man's.
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5/1/06 9:17 am
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| Not Exclusive but certainly not Diluted |
Toshiba Kawasaki |
The need of the hour is not for a particular preaching style or posture that is 'either/or' but for a consistent and balanced presentation that calls all to Repentance and Righteousness validated by holiness in living.
Much could be said about many of today's 'ways', but suffice it to say that a "new Way" is not needed, but rather a return to the age old, unchanging path of the narrow way with a singular focus.
It is possible to be Word-centered (w/no silly sidetracks) and not be exclusive or compromisingly inclusive...and yet be culturally relative (buzz word alert) |
Friendly Face
Posts: 168
5/1/06 9:22 am
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| Just my way of thinking... |
cdhenderson |
It depends on the delivery. Jesus was a contemporary and made great use of his "God talents". I am a personal fan of the concept that Raymond Culpepper preached on years and years ago... "love, acceptance and forgiveness". It is also the theme of Trinity chapel COG in North Georgia. It also depends on ones definition of "holiness". I think there is a right way and a not so right way. People have changed... society has changed. I think Jesus would change to fit the occasion.
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5/1/06 9:55 am
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| Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas |
DHDRabbi |
| My church would go from 14,000 to 0 |
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5/1/06 10:00 am
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| Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas |
Memory03 |
| DHDRabbi wrote: | | My church would go from 14,000 to 0 |
that's what I'm getting at Rab. How big do you think Joel Osteen's Congregation would be if he didn't make certain compromises that make folks feel at ease in church?
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Memory03
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5/1/06 10:20 am
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| Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas |
TheoloJohn |
I think that by far the most important question is, "Will heaven receive all those who today cry, 'Lord, lord'?"
When all is said and done, what will any church have to show for their labor, if they fail to preach and teach the biblical truth that without holiness no one shall see God?
Jesus said in Matt. 7:21-23 that there would indeed be many who would be quite disappointed on Judgment Day.
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
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5/1/06 10:28 am
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| old time |
youthjo |
You know there are somethings i agree with in the old time way and then again i would be one that would be kicked out for wearing pants and makeup .. But to stand back and look and hear about the services that use to be . They paid a price and God honored them , they took stand and sin was sin . How i long to see the Holy Ghost move in our church .
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5/1/06 10:48 am
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| Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas |
NPS39 |
| Memory03 wrote: | | DHDRabbi wrote: | | My church would go from 14,000 to 0 |
that's what I'm getting at Rab. How big do you think Joel Osteen's Congregation would be if he didn't make certain compromises that make folks feel at ease in church? |
I don't know if it's as much a compromise as much as emphasis, what are we aiming at? It is possible to live a holy life, but if being holy is relegated totally to clothing, social events, and hair, there was no need for the blood and the cross...Jesus simply needed to change His clothes and get a haircut. People still need to be reminded that the Christ life requires a seeking of what is right according to the Lord...not according to denominational rules or religious tradition.
I was raised in the Church of God in a northern area, more liberal than most southern Bible belt churches of that time...yet, we still knew more about what we couldn't do than what we could, we just weren't quite sure why!
I want to be relevant, but who and what I am relevant to is the issue at hand!
neilshead.blogspot.com |
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5/1/06 10:54 am
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| Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas |
Travis Johnson |
| When I hear "Old Time Holiness," I think man made laws and regulations. If I started preaching that in my church, I only pray that my people would find someplace to go that honored the Scriptures better than that. |
Acts-dicted
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5/1/06 11:01 am
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| Amen, Pastor Travis, Amen! |
Phil Hoover |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | When I hear "Old Time Holiness," I think man made laws and regulations. If I started preaching that in my church, I only pray that my people would find someplace to go that honored the Scriptures better than that. |
When someone talks about "Old Time Holiness", I remember the very Wednesday Night when the local Church of God Pastor told his precious wife (who is now in heaven) to take this little "orphan boy" whose hair was below his ears (I was only 12 years old at the time) "to the nursery and give him a haircut, because I don't want a hippy in my church."
And he was serious!
We were so poor that we couldn't afford to have my hair cut all the time, and I certainly didn't have all the "right clothes" to wear either.
But I loved the local Church of God where I was a member, and that pastor's remark didn't bother me then.
However, more than 30 years later, I start to wince when I think about it.
A Sidenote:
I saw several families from who were part of this same local congregation back then, during my recent visit to Alabama. One of the wonderful ladies remembered the incident, and we all had a good laugh.
She also told one of her daughters that she remembered how "poor Phillip's family was", and how that she prayed regularly for God to profoundly touch my life, and to show me His love.
Thanks Sister Faye for your love and your prayers.
Phil Hoover
Chicago
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5/1/06 11:16 am
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| Langauge of Love is Old Time Holiness |
Gradofcogts |
Holiness in my opinion has never hurt me in any church I have been privileged to pastor. In most instances people don't discern how holy you are by any externals but how much you love. People will be converted by servant pastors and not slave drivers.
How you frame a message to a drunk will determine whether he thinks he can get help?
options:
1 - All you who spent Saturday night in the hell holes better turn or burn.
2 - You come in here on Sunday but spend 6 days a week living for the devil and his crowd.
3 - No drunkard will have a place in heaven and the beer commercials never tell you that.
The first three are just preaching to the choir to get a response from the crowd. The next three are preaching to the sinner to get a response for God.
4 - anyone here today struggling with alcohol will find both love and help by coming to Jesus who died for you to be forgiven and set free.
5 - The problem with drinking is that it destroys homes, families, and lives. Jesus came without condemnation to forgive you and help restore your family, your home, and your life.
6 - If you are drinking alcohol no one has to tell you that is wrong and killing you. You wake up every time saying you will never do it again but you can't. I have good news for your today with Jesus you can!
My point is why not just live old time holiness and let it preach for itself? In my opinion the main ingredient of old time holiness is "love." Measure your holiness by your love for others and how you help them get free from sin. If you can't get true love for other then no matter what you wear or speak you will just be talking about what you wish you could live. |
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5/1/06 11:58 am
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| It Should Hurt Becuase it is not Biblical |
MI6 |
The true meaning of holiness means spiritual purity as in the innocent nature of a child - to not know sin, forgiving and totally dependent on the parent (the Heavenly Father) for all things that pertain to the spirit, soul and body.
Yes, It should hurt, because the junk that the COG and the Holiness movement preached for so long was WRONG - and not Biblical. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 140
5/1/06 12:02 pm
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| Gone the other extreme |
nugeme |
| Everyone is so afraid to mention anything about dress now that churches have gone extreme the other way. Members are wearing revealing clothing and shorts and showing cleavage, etc.... this is not pleasing to God. Presbyterians ( like Elisabeth Elliot) are preaching more holiness than the Pentecostals. I do thank God I heard Loran Livingston speak out on the issue some time ago at his church - he got tired of the freak show ( members) parading around the church. |
Acts-celerater
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5/1/06 12:04 pm
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| Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas |
TheoloJohn |
Where we went wrong in the past was in thinking of holiness in terms of "dos and don'ts," especially in terms of a dress-code. This is what causes such knee-jerk reactions to the perfectly biblical command, "be holy." In the minds of some, whenever they hear the concept of holy living mentioned, they instantly assume "clothesline" legalism. Biblical holiness (of heart and life) has absolutely nothing to do with trying to follow any man-made religious rules and regulations. Holiness is simply to be led by the Spirit, to walk in the Spirit, thereby not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh (Rom. 8, Gal. 5).
It is simply not the case that without holiness anyone will ever see God, not then or now. I sincerely hope and pray that the CoG never revises its Declaration of Faith, especially concerning the fact that holiness is God's standard of living for His people.
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006
Last edited by TheoloJohn on 5/1/06 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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5/1/06 12:38 pm
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| Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas |
TheoloJohn |
I recently felt led of the Holy Spirit to preach a message based on the following scriptures:
Rev 16:15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one watching and keeping his garments, that he does not walk naked, and they may see his shame.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die. For I have not found your works being fulfilled before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember then how you have received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
Rev 3:4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments. And they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 The one who overcomes, this one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Rev 3:6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
The response was good. The time at the altar was good, with many praying and seeking God for holiness of heart and life.
When the bridegroom cometh, will your robes be white?
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"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
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Posts: 2160
5/1/06 12:42 pm
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| Ultimately |
cdhenderson |
I think it's a personal choice. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. If God does not force himself on anyone, why should we try to force Him... we can't. I use to look at "non-pentecostal" churches and ask myself how could they do some of the things they were doing and get by with it. Now that I am a part of a Baptist-sponsored church (non-denom), I look back at the Pentecostal churches and say to myself "gee they kept that hid pretty good!!!" i.e. Pastors embezzling money, homosexuality, drinking, etc. I have to agree with Travis. I think alot of other people think of holiness as "laws and regulations". True holiness is the state of the heart and one's own personal desire to be closer to our Father.
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5/1/06 1:02 pm
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| Offensive |
fixn2bl8 |
I did find it offensive for M16 to refer to holiness preaching as "junk." My family goes way back in the church and my grandparents didn't preach "junk." If it had been junk, why were so many people brought to the Lord through their ministry? 
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Posts: 147
5/1/06 1:18 pm
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| Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas |
DHDRabbi |
| Memory03 wrote: | | DHDRabbi wrote: | | My church would go from 14,000 to 0 |
that's what I'm getting at Rab. How big do you think Joel Osteen's Congregation would be if he didn't make certain compromises that make folks feel at ease in church? |
I don't answer for Joel Osteen, I am talking about my church. Also, I am sure that 99% of the COGs out there would go to zero also. You did say "old time holiness" didn't you? The kind that preaches against women wearing pants, women wearing makeup, anyone wearing jewelry, no movies, no ballgames, no shorts, no swimming, etc. That is old Time holiness to me and most folk aren't going to go to a church like that. |
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5/1/06 1:23 pm
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| Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas |
Partagez1 |
I agree w/ Peter. Holiness is not "the ole time way." But it's certainly not "junk" either. I think finxin has a good point as well. So many people came to the Lord during that time. They must have been doing something right. Maybe the regulations for dress were going too far. But I know one thing they did do. They prayed. A lot more than we do. And they sacrificed. A lot more than we do.
The Bible is very plain. Without holiness, we WILL NOT see God. |
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5/1/06 1:31 pm
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