Actscelerate.com

TheoloJohn

Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2160 **5/1/06 1:44 pm**

Phil Hoover

Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15382 **5/1/06 1:50 pm**

[quote="DHDRabbi"]

fixn2bl8

Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas

Friendly Face Posts: 147 **5/1/06 2:06 pm**

So, what is this all about? Is the numbers of people or the number of souls?

I don't think my great grandparents were in vain by letting people throw tomatoes at them for preaching old time holiness. I agree, they were a little over zealous about some things, but they would put everyone on this board to shame by their fasting and praying. Now, what's wrong with that?
_________________
Let go and let God.

stp89

What I find interesting

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1248 **5/1/06 2:15 pm**

Is how the word "holiness" has such a polarizing effect on the church world.

We immediately retreat to our corners of the room for the discussion.

DHDRabbi

Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13680 **5/1/06 2:16 pm**

fixn2bl8

Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas

Friendly Face Posts: 147 **5/1/06 2:22 pm**

Rabbi, you didn't answer my question:
What's more important............the number of people coming to your church, or the number of people being saved?

I'm not totally disagreeing with you here. I believe I said that my grandparents were over zealous in some areas. BUT, it may surprise you to know that they didn't advocate the "bun." Sure, they wore their hair like that back then. So did everybody else. But, when I look back, the way you looked, was NOT pushed onto me or my generation.

The word holiness can be detrimental if used incorrectly, but I think we've gotten to the point of being ashamed for people to know that we're associated with the movement.

Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack this thread.
_________________
Let go and let God.

Partagez1

Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas

Member Posts: 25 **5/1/06 2:43 pm**

I agree fixin. If you take a step back and examine the thread, it looks like some of you are ashamed of where you came from. Would it hurt a preacher to preach that pants and make-up will send you to hell? Yes, because it's not the truth. But that wasn't all there was to that movement. There was so much more, or else there wouldn't be a church of God.

DHDRabbi

Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13680 **5/1/06 3:10 pm**

cdhenderson

Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **5/1/06 3:11 pm**

I was raised old time Church of God. I wouldn't take nothing for it. I was the old time gospel preacher, direct and hard. Thank God, HE changed my attitude a couple of years ago when I began to pray to become more like Jesus in my ministry. What worked then, worked out fairly well. I do agree with Rab... we did run alot of people off because we preached and it was almost without love, more out of duty. I don't care how good of a preacher you are. You CANNOT make people live right. You can have volumes of rules and regulations and people will die and go to hell trying to live up to those rules because they give up. I know of Rabbi's church. My church is fashioned after his and we are running near 2000. We don't have the big list of rules. But our pastors preach salvation and the need for God in our lives and to evangelize the world. Not everybody that attends walks the walk. But there are several hundred people that are attending that otherwise would be sitting at home or on the lake somewhere. Read Seven Practices of Effective Ministry by Andy Stanley of NorthPoint Ministries. A well-rounded Gospel really works!!!
_________________
Dale Henderson
First Responder and Community Chaplain
www.centurionsfaith.org

fixn2bl8

Sorry DHDR

Friendly Face Posts: 147 **5/1/06 4:25 pm**

I'm sorry for offending you. That was not my purpose. I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I guess I took it too far. It just sort of touched a nerve when people refer to my grandparents at being less than the honorable people they were.

Yes, old time holiness preaching would run a lot of people off. A lot of people couldn't and wouldn't stand it.

I was looking for the handshake icon to offer to you, Rabbi, but I couldn't find it.
_________________
Let go and let God.

DHDRabbi

Re: Sorry DHDR

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13680 **5/1/06 5:28 pm**

Gradofcogts

Old Time or New Time Holiness has rules

Friendly Face Posts: 123 **5/1/06 7:10 pm**

I am amazed at this board and the people who say they are COG but put down our heritage. Until the late 70's that was the COG and I wonder what kind of price we have paid for the "liberation" from old time holiness.

I am not ashamed of rules, regulations, and the law. As a matter of fact you can't be saved without them. The law is a school master bringing us to Christ and all who refuse will die and be judged by the law, rules, and regulations.

It is not the law that makes man sin and it is not the law that we are delivered from, (it is sin). Those who die without Christ will be judged by the "law."

What kind of comment is it to say come to our church there are no rules everybody just sits under their own fig tree and interprets the Bible the way they please. "Every" church has rules and many big churches have very strict rules and they have to, to operate.

I think we are missing the mark by saying we can't live by rules and if you show me a big growing church I will show you a church that has many rules. They may be hid from the seekers in the pew but they are there.

The question is are they logistical rules, liturgical rules, and scriptural.

DHDRabbi

Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13680 **5/1/06 7:30 pm**

You're not ashamed of a rule that had my Mom kicked out of the COG at age 12 for not wearing hose? That's the stuff we're talking about. There is a difference between true Holiness and fanaticism. I have no problem with the part of our heritage that allowed the Holy Spirit to move, but the part where man interjected his rules is not anything I'm proud of.

Gradofcogts

The problem DHDRabbi with that Type of thinking

Friendly Face Posts: 123 **5/2/06 10:33 am**

is that many become bitter at their heritage and have become harmed because of bitterness. It is not rules that harm people but people. It was not the COG that turned out your relative but a person, an individual. What has happened today is rampant worldliness in the church and it is bringing it to it's knees because we are preaching about power that has been lost to worldliness. We are in a powerless time with seeker friendly programs replacing prayer and consecration to God.

Once at a job I worked a lady came in crying about being mistreated at a church she attended. Everyone on the job came running to me the preacher to ask what was wrong with the church. Yes it was over her wearing pants to a service.

I first calmed her down and then asked some questions. Such as, did you know what was expected at this church? She answered yes, but it was wrong for them to expect that from me. I don't believe like that so they should accept me as I am and not force their rules on me. I said would it be to much to ask of you to either abide by their teachings or find another church. Why do you feel you have a right to go to a church and change their entire teaching and government just to satisfy your feeling of what is right and wrong.

That is what has happened in the COG. It has been infiltrated with Baptist doctrine such as a historical Pentecost without tongues, once saved always saved, and congregational doctrine and lifestyles where the congregation judges the preachers sermon by the way they feel about it rather than what God says about it.

If you can find me a gospel without rules then please help me see it. Also many COG children today are on drugs, in prostitution, and in jail, because they have been raised in a congregation without rules and expect the social law to allow them to be an individual and express themselves without regard to others and without answering to the rules.

I am very thankful for the New Testament and that Christ fulfilled the law in every aspect and respect of the law but you will die and be judged by the law unless you accept Christ and abide by his "rules."

throughtheflood

Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas

Acts-celerater Posts: 812 **5/2/06 11:37 am**

I guess "ole time holiness" needs to be defined. Are you talking about the various interpretations man has given to it? Or "holiness as unto the Lord"? IMO holiness is keeping your heart and soul clean before the Lord. This is a constant daily occurrence. A constant searching of your heart and seeking for the Lord. When your primary concern is just pleasing and loving Jesus, then all of the other stuff just falls in place. Trying to remember all the "rules" (Whether God's or Man's) can be difficult to do. But when you are in constant communion with the Writer of the Book, it just takes care of itself. Your concern is no longer how much can I do and still be saved; instead, it's what can I do to serve you Lord? I just want to be close to You. I agree with DH DR that a lot of innocent people have/were wounded by senseless remarks. Like DH DR, I'm 4Th generation COG and I have a lot of wounded relatives in my family tree. Why did we stay with 'holiness"? Because the arrows were inflicted by man, not by God. It's God who will stand in Judgment of us. But I have an excellent Lawyer, Jesus. He has already arbitrated all claims against me. Thank you, Jesus!

fixn2bl8

Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas

Friendly Face Posts: 147 **5/2/06 11:46 am**

Thank you, throughtheflood. Very well put. I had an aunt that was turned out of the COG for not wearing hose. I think that was wrong, and it definitely was man's interpretation. I just don't want our church to totally forget where it came from. How can we deny the awesome power of God that was so real then, and still today?

Back to the original question: Can old time holiness preaching hurt a preacher? Yes, in a lot of ways, it can. But, as long a the preacher is continuously seeking God for "His" will, IMHO everything will be just fine.
_________________
Let go and let God.

Gradofcogts

throughtheflood and fixin2bel8

Friendly Face Posts: 123 **5/2/06 3:44 pm**

I think you both have made valid points and when you say ole time holiness you touch a lot of hot buttons for many people.

I am 3rd gen cog and know all about having kin folks turned out for various things and we all know mistakes were made then and now in church. I remember as a young Christian that the first thing that happened to me was old saints started telling me I needed to be Sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost........now that was good but they also started reminding me of all my flaws and faults. I could have accepted that and did for a season but then noticed their faults as well and found some of them were more interested in solving my faults than theirs. That is where we all have been hurt and will continue to be hurt in church not matter what denom or flavor you find yourself aligned with.

Then the mistake was at times being stricter than the Scriptures and now looser than the Scriptures in my opinion.

As to the question at hand of course definition is important. If we are talking about old time scriptural holiness then hurt us or not we better stay with it or get back to it. If we are talking about "strictness" for the same of pleasing man then of course dump it as soon as possible.But let me be quick to add that they were not all that way. We had some very loving and Godly people who came along side me and encouraged me to keep seeking God and that they loved me and were praying for me. Also they kept reminding me of the good things I had found in God and to look to God for everything. Now that is old time holiness at work in the church.

I think in a thread like this we see the hurts of each of us manifesting itself and we try to compensate for that hurt in others as though we can protect them from being hurt. Jesus said we are as lambs among the wolves so hurt will come but the love of Christ is a tandem than brings healing to all hurts and deliverance to all believers.

Ole time holiness is the same as present day holiness it has not changed but people have changed and is it good or bad? That is the journey of faith and it takes a life time to figure all that out.

sheepdogandy

This is my take.......

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7307 **5/2/06 9:17 pm**

The old timers fasted, prayed, studied their Bibles and worshiped in their church services.

I think it's called consecration.

As a result, they became very sensitive to the Holy Spirit.

This spiritual sensitivity, manifested itself through convictions.

Some began to focus on the convictions instead of the spiritual disciplines that brought them about.

If we would only emphasize the disciplines that lead to genuine consecration.

I am convinced it would amaze us what convictions our people would begin to manifest.

It all goes back to the relationship.

I think I'll preach along this line Sun PM.

Just got "that feeling"!!!!!!!
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

www.spwc.church

Bullseye77

Re: Would preaching "Old Time Holiness" hurt a pas

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1441 **5/3/06 10:44 am**

I have read this thread with great interest. I am "ole time holiness". I am Church of God. My roots go back to an old fashioned shouting Methodist grandmother who came into the Church of God because she had an experience that the Methodists did not understand nor allow. After reading some of these posts, it makes me wonder what church some of the posters were raised in. Some have listed incidents where people were hurt by being turned out of the church, and based on that, have slapped the entire denomination and branded them as legalists. Others have demonstrated by their posts that they are completely ignorant of their heritage and have only the soured opinion of others on which to base their opinions. I was raised in the Church of God in a holiness environment. My mother was one of the most dedicated women I have ever known to principles of holiness. She never cut her hair. She never wore makeup. She never wore pants. The only piece of jewelry she wore was a tiny gold ring that represented the fifty-five years she was married to my daddy. But that was not her religion! She had a prayer life that kept her in such contact with God that He would tell her where I was when I was where I shouldn't be. She knew how to pray things through without saying a word to anybody. She was one of the greatest personal evangelists I have ever seen in action. She has fruit, which I am aware of, that remains today, after more than forty years. She never imposed her convictions on anybody. But if they asked, she had the ability to tell them why she believed or practiced a certain thing. I miss her wisdom and sweet gentleness today.
Yes, I am an old time holiness preacher. I have convictions that do not fit in with much of the contemporary Church of God. But my convictions are not my religion. My convictions are not my message. And if I am asked about any of them, I have enough understanding of God's Word, and enough experience to back them up. And as far as preaching do's and don'ts, if I should feel led to preach them, I don't preach them to sinners. I preach them to the church. Telling sinners how to live like Christians is an exercise in futility. Without a born again experience, they can't do it, even if they knew how, which is part of the problem in the church now. We've got a bunch of folks hollering "legalism" and "bondage" because they can't live up to what is expected of a Christian. They've tried in the energy of the flesh to do it and have exhausted themselves in the process, and finally given up. Since they couldn't make it, they decided to change the rules to something they could live by. And that starts a process which is never ending, until it makes it possible for the flesh to live without interference. I will stop now, for I fear I may preach a while
_________________
On Target!!

sheepdogandy

Hey Bullseye!!!!!!!

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7307 **5/3/06 11:24 am**

You can preach for me.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

www.spwc.church