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Is leadership always to blame? |
Quiet Wyatt |
I have been in the ministry almost all my life, as a PK and, after a few years of running from the call in my early 20s, I have now been in vocational ministry myself for over 30 years. I have sat under several different pastors while serving on staff and under several state overseers as a lead pastor. I have been blessed to serve on the state youth board as well as the state council. I have always been keenly aware of the topic of church growth, discipleship, etc.
One thing I have noted is, some churches will not grow no matter who the pastor is, and some states will not grow in church members no matter who the state overseer is.
I have seen many churches down through the years that have had various different pastors in succession who maybe saw a small uptick in attendance but it eventually went back to what it was before (or worse). I have seen states where dynamic, ‘cutting edge’ bishops came in and tried to implement strategies for growth, but almost never have I seen *lasting*, long-term results from any of these latest and greatest church growth programs. I have nothing but the utmost respect for these leaders, and don’t blame them at all for the lack of growth under their ministries, but experience proves the point I’m trying to make here.
And yet, to hear church growth experts and even to hear some pastors and ABs (especially those who have had above-average success in numbers when they were pastoring) “everything stands or falls on leadership.”
In other words, the small-church pastor is primarily to blame for his church’s lack of growth. If he just did the right church growth things, just prayed enough, just knocked on enough doors, just did enough fun activities to interest people in attending, etc., etc., growth would absolutely come. At least that’s the impression one gets when listening to some who like to pontificate on this issue. By the same logic, if a pastor experiences great growth in his congregation, he has to have been doing everything right, and he personally deserves all or most of the credit, or so it seems.
I freely admit I am no church growth expert (chuckle), but I also think hardly anybody really knows what they’re talking about when it comes to the subject. I have known GREAT pastors who never pastored more than a few dozen out in the country. I have unfortunately also known total charlatans who pastored mega churches.
As for me, as long as I hear Him say, “Well done, good and faithful servant” on that day, that will be all that really matters. Sure, I’d LOVE to see more people saved and my church grow, but there seems to be no absolute rhyme or reason as to why one pastor sees growth and another doesn’t. When 5 or 10 different pastors lead a congregation in succession over 10 or 20 years and at the end of that time, the congregation is the same size or smaller, it seems to me there’s more too it than to just say it’s the pastor’s fault.
Likewise, when new overseers come in every two to four years to a missions state that has never had significant growth, where all the pastors are bivocational by necessity, and every one of these overseers were successful pastors before being sent out as overseers, but overall the churches still don’t grow under the succession of new overseers, it simply CAN’T be all due to poor leadership skills on the part of the bishop or pastor.
I have also seen, and perhaps you have as well, pastors who struggled with less than 50 at one place and then a few years later in a different city see much more growth (even in one case the guy became a pastor of thousands in weekly attendance, while the church of 50 the same brother used to pastor is still running 50 after a succession of different pastors.
Okay rant over. I will just say that blaming pastors 100% for their church’s lack of growth in numbers is really not helpful. Pastors already blame themselves for virtually everything that doesn’t go right. All you do is make them feel even more useless and worthless than they did before when you state or imply that it’s all or mainly their fault their church is not growing. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 11/12/22 12:36 am
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Re: Is leadership always to blame? |
Isa 58:12 |
Quiet Wyatt wrote: | I have been in the ministry almost all my life, as a PK and, after a few years of running from the call in my early 20s, I have now been in vocational ministry myself for over 30 years. I have sat under several different pastors while serving on staff and under several state overseers as a lead pastor. I have been blessed to serve on the state youth board as well as the state council. I have always been keenly aware of the topic of church growth, discipleship, etc.
One thing I have noted is, some churches will not grow no matter who the pastor is, and some states will not grow in church members no matter who the state overseer is.
I have seen many churches down through the years that have had various different pastors in succession who maybe saw a small uptick in attendance but it eventually went back to what it was before (or worse). I have seen states where dynamic, ‘cutting edge’ bishops came in and tried to implement strategies for growth, but almost never have I seen *lasting*, long-term results from any of these latest and greatest church growth programs. I have nothing but the utmost respect for these leaders, and don’t blame them at all for the lack of growth under their ministries, but experience proves the point I’m trying to make here.
And yet, to hear church growth experts and even to hear some pastors and ABs (especially those who have had above-average success in numbers when they were pastoring) “everything stands or falls on leadership.”
In other words, the small-church pastor is primarily to blame for his church’s lack of growth. If he just did the right church growth things, just prayed enough, just knocked on enough doors, just did enough fun activities to interest people in attending, etc., etc., growth would absolutely come. At least that’s the impression one gets when listening to some who like to pontificate on this issue. By the same logic, if a pastor experiences great growth in his congregation, he has to have been doing everything right, and he personally deserves all or most of the credit, or so it seems.
I freely admit I am no church growth expert (chuckle), but I also think hardly anybody really knows what they’re talking about when it comes to the subject. I have known GREAT pastors who never pastored more than a few dozen out in the country. I have unfortunately also known total charlatans who pastored mega churches.
As for me, as long as I hear Him say, “Well done, good and faithful servant” on that day, that will be all that really matters. Sure, I’d LOVE to see more people saved and my church grow, but there seems to be no absolute rhyme or reason as to why one pastor sees growth and another doesn’t. When 5 or 10 different pastors lead a congregation in succession over 10 or 20 years and at the end of that time, the congregation is the same size or smaller, it seems to me there’s more too it than to just say it’s the pastor’s fault.
Likewise, when new overseers come in every two to four years to a missions state that has never had significant growth, where all the pastors are bivocational by necessity, and every one of these overseers were successful pastors before being sent out as overseers, but overall the churches still don’t grow under the succession of new overseers, it simply CAN’T be all due to poor leadership skills on the part of the bishop or pastor.
I have also seen, and perhaps you have as well, pastors who struggled with less than 50 at one place and then a few years later in a different city see much more growth (even in one case the guy became a pastor of thousands in weekly attendance, while the church of 50 the same brother used to pastor is still running 50 after a succession of different pastors.
Okay rant over. I will just say that blaming pastors 100% for their church’s lack of growth in numbers is really not helpful. Pastors already blame themselves for virtually everything that doesn’t go right. All you do is make them feel even more useless and worthless than they did before when you state or imply that it’s all or mainly their fault their church is not growing. |
????. Maybe it’s the message, maybe unknowingly you’re building a kingdom Opposite from His, because the messages off. I saw nowhere in your talking about G-d and His message ???????. The book of Acts 2:47 Says it’s God who adds to the church daily, as should be saved. And the message spoken there is vs 38 “repent” and be baptized everyone of you and the name of Y’shua HaMashiach for the “remission of sins”……. That’s the exact same message of John the Baptist, of repentance, and Y’shua had the same message Matt 4:17. & Messages still the same today, repent, stop breaking my Commandments, my Torah, my Covenant , and keep it ????
Remember G-d fills the seats, according to the message ???? _________________ Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Posts: 2547 11/12/22 6:23 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
All the “?‘s” are from my emoji‘s from my phone _________________ Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Posts: 2547 11/12/22 6:25 pm
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Amen! |
Cojak |
QW said:
One thing I have noted is, some churches will not grow no matter who the pastor is, and some states will not grow in church members no matter who the state overseer is.
Amen!
_________________ Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 11/12/22 7:22 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Is 58:12, Please do not reply to my posts again. Save us both some trouble and kindly don’t reply to me again. Thanks. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 11/13/22 12:41 am
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Preacher777 |
Quiet Wyatt makes some great points. So many things come into play concerning church growth (which is usually measured by Sunday morning attendance). Often fine pastors and their families make great sacrifices to minister in hard areas with little personal or church resources. Whether it is people in the local area or message board posters we should be sensitive to be sure we are encouraging and building each other up.
God is the one who judges the hearts, motives and success of our Christian walk and leadership. The local pastor is just one person in local area of the body of Christ. I encourage myself by knowing that I am told to preach a convicting Word that challenges people to grow spiritually. Scriptures instruct us leaders to love and give to those in our local church and community and spend hours in prayer for them. I encourage myself by dwelling on the fact that the results, judging and evaluating of my efforts, motives and performance are in God's hands. |
Friendly Face Posts: 434 11/14/22 6:55 am
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Some thoughts.... |
Aaron Scott |
I dare say that if the Church of God cleaned up our membership records, EVERY STATE would see a dramatic fall in membership. As it stands, there are people that have been on church rolls YEARS after those members left.
About 2 or 3 years ago, I reduced our roll to ONLY those who attended church. Thankfully, leadership didn't have anything to say about it.
It MAY be that most churches are not growing very much, but when you add two or three here and two or three there, piling on top of invalid membership, it can appear that one is growing, even when the net may actually be well beneath where the church was before.
When a church is vibrant and thriving (and by that I mean well enough to pay a minister, fill up needed positions, etc.), it can attract ministers that may very well be able to keep the church on an upward trajectory. But if a church begins to wither, then often the only ones who will come to that church are those who are perhaps less able pastors.
You know my situation in Jasper. When I first came, I was so happy to be here that I couldn't believe other pastors hadn't swooped in and got it first. But the regional bishop told me that too many pastors want "a package" (i.e., a full-time salary, parsonage, etc.). Since I was on no one's first-round draft pick chart, I would up with the finest little church in Florida. No, I don't draw a salary (and I imagine you know the feeling), but I love the folks, I have a place to live, and there's a good spirit here.
When my dad left his pastorate in Tampa after around 25 years, the next couple of pastors were very solid folks. The first one was a very good man who, alas, died not too long after coming. In the meantime, as with all new pastors, some regulars moved on because it was, well, different from what was there before. So the second pastor inherited a church that was already slipping downward.
Long story short, 10 years later, that church had went through NINE pastors (and this was with the first two pastors staying there around a couple of years apiece), and by that time, pretty much no one would take it on...so less-skilled pastors were given a shot...then left soon thereafter. The last pastor rented the church to a Spanish work, taking that money to launch a new church in better conditions (the neighborhood had deteriorated over the decades), and, frankly, that was probably about the only play left open to him.
With the exception of Dwight Allen, who took Cooper City to the largest church in Florida (at the time), and then, after retirement, was called back to pastor a much more modest church (which he has grown to around 300, I understand), I don't hardly know of anyone for whom lightning strikes twice.
Some people are just gifted to grow churches, but it is VERY RARE. Some of our greatest preachers (Ray H. Hughes, for instance) were not remotely as well known for their pastoring abilities as their preaching abilities.
The thing that helps me sustain in these times (as you know, I pastor a micro-church) is that even this small flock needs a shepherd. They could easily go elsewhere--and easily find better preaching and singing. But for whatever reason, they keep coming here. I know it's not me, of course. I think, though, that they are connected to others here and, at the same time, I am not doing anything to run them off!
This little flock needs to be fed also. And if that's the Lord's assignment to me, then I'll get on that elevator every time.
If you took our most noted pastors...and you placed them at random in smaller churches where no one knew them, and they didn't have any connections that they could use to get this or that done, I doubt they'd wind up running hundreds (or thousands) again.
If Loran Livingston took a church in some small town on the Plains, as incredible of a preacher as he is, we have to keep in mind that his current church has grown over many, many years. And if no one knew him, and if he couldn't call on folks to contribute significant sums to this new church, or to provide music, etc., then we'd have what we already have all around the Church of God: A top-notch preacher pastoring a smaller church. Yes, I would sure want to attend there, but only because I already know of him.
I will leave you with this thought: In time, if you can hang in there long enough, someone will visit and almost certainly like what they find there. I consider you are very good minister; many others would feel the same way. But right now, some of them are going here and there, or are, for the time being, trying to make it work where they currently attend.
Just my thoughts. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 11/14/22 12:40 pm
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sheepdogandy |
If Cleveland were to offer the "School of Christ" as taught by B. H. Clendennen to all of their ministers.
I wonder what the result would be? _________________ Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7307 11/14/22 1:56 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
A few thoughts...
Aaron took Jasper - it is in the middle of nowhere - there just isn't enough traffic to have 2000 members - much less 200 - no matter if Loran and Jentezen tag team minister there.
But, if you are in a metropolis, and a guy a couple miles away from you can run 600 - and you only run 26 - then it's you.
Quit saying woe is me - and do something about it.
Maybe you are lazy, maybe you were called to something else, maybe you are an angry person - i don't know what it is. But if no one comes to church - at some point you can't keep blaming everyone else. look in the mirror and make the necessary change. Piano players, singers, workers, and other core members of your church aren't just going to show up. You got to get them, and build them up. Give them a reason to keep coming back due to you teaching and training them If you got no skills to train them in - you better be working on them yourself. Have something to offer them. Silver and gold - you might not have any - but have something to give them. _________________ Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16646 11/14/22 5:42 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
I am not saying woe is me. I am saying in many, if not most, cases, it cannot be totally the pastor’s fault if the church doesn’t grow. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 11/14/22 10:07 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Also, the please note in my opening post I am making an observation of multiple churches, not just the three I have had the privilege of being lead pastor of for just shy of 20 years now, the 7 my father pastored for a total of 40 years, the two my grandfather pastored for nearly 40 years, etc. I am also observing what I have witnessed on a statewide level as well. While I of course can’t escape my own experience (and am not trying to), it seems to me that church growth over the long haul is a much more complicated equation than simply, “Good and faithful pastors always will have growing congregations.” |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 11/14/22 10:19 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
I could be mistaken, but it seems to have been incorrectly assumed that I am just whining about my own situation. I will just say that I certainly wish our church would grow. We actually were doing fairly well as a congregation of 50 in an isolated tiny town of 2000 prior to COVID. We are slowly getting back some of our regulars who dropped out during the pandemic for various reasons. I work two jobs outside the church in order to support my family and my church, and am very active in my community. I don’t think anyone who knows me would say I’m lazy or that I’m just an angry person. I definitely could improve in many ways, no doubt.
This thread is about my general observation of the issue of church growth. If you can prove my conclusions wrong please by all means do so, and I will have perhaps learned something I did not know. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 11/14/22 10:38 pm
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QW...since you are anonymous... |
Aaron Scott |
Since you are anonymous (to some of the posters), they don't know that, if anything, you pastor in an even more secluded place than Jasper! Truly middle of nowhere, Radiator Springs.
I do think NBF made a good observation: If you are in a thriving area of thousands, yes, you should expect to see reasonable results. But, yes, in small towns--especially those who still have numerous churches, with all but two or three, just scraping along, it seems--you can't have the same expectations, all things being equal.
My folks drive by some very nice churches to come here, so I am humbled (and I know you feel similarly in your situation).
Even First Baptist, which used to be (and maybe still is) one of the larger churches in our county, is WAY DOWN, I understand, due to Covid. It didn't affect our church much because, well, we were already down to the rock-solid faithful.
It also occurred to me, QW, that if consider that many other churches in your area dropped off due to COVID, that means that some of them still are in limbo, not having yet went back to church. I think many folks used that moment to quietly disconnect from their own church and, if they went back at all, started playing the field. So it might be that you will eventually get the benefit of some who stop by to visit.
To be honest, running FIFTY(!) in your small town is, in my opinion, amazing. Seriously. If I ran 50, I would feel like a mega-church! (SMILE). But until all that gets worked out, I know you will give your church the teaching and training they need to be ready for such things.
And I'll tell you this, IF I LIVED WITHIN THREE BLOCKS OF YOUR CHURCH, I'D ATTEND THERE! (SMILE) OK, maybe 3 miles. Or 30.
Last edited by Aaron Scott on 11/19/22 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 11/15/22 4:07 pm
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Aaron said |
Cojak |
The thing that helps me sustain in these times (as you know, I pastor a micro-church) is that even this small flock needs a shepherd. They could easily go elsewhere--and easily find better preaching and singing. But for whatever reason, they keep coming here. I know it's not me, of course. I think, though, that they are connected to others here and, at the same time, I am not doing anything to run them off!
This little flock needs to be fed also. And if that's the Lord's assignment to me, then I'll get on that elevator every time......
Good insight!
We all see churches in those small communities that will or are dying. BUT until the debts/utilities cannot be paid, YES they need the church and a dedicated person to feed and bury them. There are some older folk in these churches who CANNOT attend a church further away.
A church cannot grow if the population itself is dying due to lack of jobs. In Central Florida with orange factories closing, it is tough..
I am smiling thinking of Lake Panasofkee. Bro. Carl Hart took that little church and those few folks are blessed. We love to visit there when we are in the area. My wife tells me Carl has gotten too OLD and has resigned. He is pretty old, maybe as old as I am.... LOL _________________ Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 11/15/22 4:33 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Is 58:12, Please do not reply to my posts again. Save us both some trouble and kindly don’t reply to me again. Thanks. |
I don’t know what you’re afraid of & why u don’t want me 2 say anything. I Didn’t know this is a leftist organization that silences me LOL LOL. Let me ask you a question, did I say anything wrong, i used scripture for everything, wouldn’t you think that would apply to your situation in ur churches? I just used New Testament sheesh _________________ Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Posts: 2547 11/17/22 11:05 pm
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