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 Put the matter to rest |
Pastors Friend |
An exhumation and an autopsy would put this to rest. If he were my relative, I would want to have this done so the rumors could be silenced.
Pastors Friend
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Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1345
11/11/15 11:35 am
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| Re: Put the matter to rest |
Link |
| Pastors Friend wrote: | An exhumation and an autopsy would put this to rest. If he were my relative, I would want to have this done so the rumors could be silenced.
Pastors Friend |
Wouldn't a liver in a dead body be worthless to a medical examiner after a relatively short period of time? They can examine bones.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
11/11/15 2:26 pm
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Link |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | JLarry wrote: | | As a boy T. L. Lowery prayed for me and my eyes that had been crossed since birth was instantly straightened. When I came back to God at 19, I went to a service where Bro. Lowery was preaching. I needed a healing and thought for sure if he prayed for me I would be healed. I was so let down when it did not happen. I was really expecting to get my miracle. |
The woffie would say "you didn't have enough faith."
Dake would say it is your right as a believer to walk in health. You're not exercising your right.
The hyper-Calvinist would say, "Miracles aint for today."
Kenny/Gloria would say, "treat your symptom as sin and resist/rebuke it, don't accept it.
The Bible says God is sovereign and operates according to his will. An ifn ya didn't git ya miracle, just like Paul didn't git release from the thorn in his flesh, God gave ya grace, Larry, to press on. |
That last one is what a Baptist might say. Most of the healing passage in the New Testament refer to people getting healed. Most of us haven't had the great revelations Paul had to need to be humble about.
I read a post online where a man was upset about people telling this grandma with arthritis to believe God for healing. He thought God gave her that so she could learn to trust God more or something like that. I told him if he believed that way he could tell her not to take any pain medicine if she believed that way and tell her to dip her hands in ice water so she could hurt more and get more out of it spiritually.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
11/11/15 2:27 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Link wrote: | | Most of us haven't had the great revelations Paul had to need to be humble about. |
In at case, then, most a our thorns aint as big as Pauls thorn. But at don't mean we aint got a thorn. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
11/11/15 2:37 pm
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| God's Generals by Roberts Liardon |
caveator |
Roberts Liardon wrote a series of books called, "God's Generals." If you have not read these books, or seen the corresponding video series, you need to get them. Church history is intriguing to me. Liardon gives a fair and investigative description of most of the well known ministries of the Healing Revival Movement.
In his writings about the death of Allen, he shares the results of his investigation and lays out an interesting scenario. The minister who reported the DUI in Knoxville, TN was J. Bazel Mull. Those who grew up in the south will remember Mull as the host of the "Mull's Singing Convention" television program. He was also one of the biggest promoters of southern gospel concerts for many decades. He later purchased a network television station in Knoxville, along with several radio stations. Many witnesses have stated that Allen was set up for that DUI, and that Mull was involved in that set up.
Liardon makes the statement that A.A. Allen had a chronic back condition that he kept secret. Very few of his closest associates were aware that he lived in constant pain. Obviously, this ailment was a major issue for the most well known healing evangelist of the time. He was embarrassed by his own affliction. Liardon concludes through his investigation, that Allen had been prescribed pain medication by a doctor. However, in a twisted irony, he felt that it would be an unpardonable sin for him to rely on the pain meds, so he medicated himself in another method that he seemed to justify. One of his closest associates stated that on the night of his death that Allen had unbearable back pain. When they found him dead in his room, they found a bottle of prescription pain meds that had not been taken, and bottles of liquor. According to Liardon, Allen did not die of liver failure from cirrhosis. Rather, he died from chronic liver failure. This indicated that his liver was not affected from extended alcoholism. Rather, it was the result of what we would call binge drinking. He drank a lot of alcohol in a short period of time. This is what Liardon concludes that Allen was trying to self medicate his chronic pain with the alcohol.
This scenario does not make the big picture any better. It just gives an explanation that makes a lot of sense. I am explaining the story to the best of my memory. For anyone that is interested in the details, I would reccomend finding the book, "God's Generals." |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 586
11/11/15 10:27 pm
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| Re: God's Generals by Roberts Liardon |
diakoneo |
| caveator wrote: | Roberts Liardon wrote a series of books called, "God's Generals." If you have not read these books, or seen the corresponding video series, you need to get them. Church history is intriguing to me. Liardon gives a fair and investigative description of most of the well known ministries of the Healing Revival Movement.
In his writings about the death of Allen, he shares the results of his investigation and lays out an interesting scenario. The minister who reported the DUI in Knoxville, TN was J. Bazel Mull. Those who grew up in the south will remember Mull as the host of the "Mull's Singing Convention" television program. He was also one of the biggest promoters of southern gospel concerts for many decades. He later purchased a network television station in Knoxville, along with several radio stations. Many witnesses have stated that Allen was set up for that DUI, and that Mull was involved in that set up.
Liardon makes the statement that A.A. Allen had a chronic back condition that he kept secret. Very few of his closest associates were aware that he lived in constant pain. Obviously, this ailment was a major issue for the most well known healing evangelist of the time. He was embarrassed by his own affliction. Liardon concludes through his investigation, that Allen had been prescribed pain medication by a doctor. However, in a twisted irony, he felt that it would be an unpardonable sin for him to rely on the pain meds, so he medicated himself in another method that he seemed to justify. One of his closest associates stated that on the night of his death that Allen had unbearable back pain. When they found him dead in his room, they found a bottle of prescription pain meds that had not been taken, and bottles of liquor. According to Liardon, Allen did not die of liver failure from cirrhosis. Rather, he died from chronic liver failure. This indicated that his liver was not affected from extended alcoholism. Rather, it was the result of what we would call binge drinking. He drank a lot of alcohol in a short period of time. This is what Liardon concludes that Allen was trying to self medicate his chronic pain with the alcohol.
This scenario does not make the big picture any better. It just gives an explanation that makes a lot of sense. I am explaining the story to the best of my memory. For anyone that is interested in the details, I would reccomend finding the book, "God's Generals." |
If Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for the stomach's sake, Allen probably thought it was OK for him to drink some alcohol for his ailing back. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
11/12/15 4:08 pm
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JLarry |
It was not my intention to turn this thread into A.A. Allan's drinking or lack thereof.
I wanted to talk about healing. I want to see miracles like those men saw. I have seen some in my ministry but nothing to the magnitude they saw.
My late brother was paralyzed. I have never seen a paralyzed person healed. I long to see that happen.
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Acts Mod
Posts: 3346
11/12/15 6:32 pm
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| JL, it seems that sort of thing happens quite frequently |
caseyleejones |
overseas. Our family is hooked up with some pastors from India. One pastor who oversees over a hundred churches told me personally that at least 75% of the thousands in the churches under him came because of a healing.
Just look at this board. You have posters that spend their time disproving healing in the bible. Maybe that is an indicator as to why the American church heavily medicated. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11798
11/14/15 1:37 pm
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| Re: JL, it seems that sort of thing happens quite frequently |
Carolyn Smith |
| caseyleejones wrote: | overseas. Our family is hooked up with some pastors from India. One pastor who oversees over a hundred churches told me personally that at least 75% of the thousands in the churches under him came because of a healing.
Just look at this board. You have posters that spend their time disproving healing in the bible. Maybe that is an indicator as to why the American church heavily medicated. |
I mentioned this in SS lately. Miracles happen when they are truly needed and when there is faith. We have become so accustomed to going to the doctor for our physical ailments, we don't usually truly seek the Lord for a miracle.
I found something my grandmother had written, and she wrote that my aunt was healed of pneumonia when she was 5 years old (in the early 1920s) - before penicillin. A lot of people couldn't afford to go to the doctor. You had to believe for miracles.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
11/14/15 4:21 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
| JLarry wrote: | It was not my intention to turn this thread into A.A. Allan's drinking or lack thereof.
I wanted to talk about healing. I want to see miracles like those men saw. I have seen some in my ministry but nothing to the magnitude they saw.
My late brother was paralyzed. I have never seen a paralyzed person healed. I long to see that happen. |
Didn't you post the video of the woman who got out of the wheelchair in the revival in MS or LA last year? That was pretty awesome.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
11/14/15 4:24 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
The ole timer believes in miracles.
The ole timer believes in healing.
The author a both is God. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
11/14/15 7:35 pm
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Cojak |
| JLarry wrote: | ...
I wanted to talk about healing. I want to see miracles like those men saw. I have seen some in my ministry but nothing to the magnitude they saw.
My late brother was paralyzed. I have never seen a paralyzed person healed. I long to see that happen. |
I believe every young pastor fasts, cries and prays for miracles in his church. I know I did in my short ministry. None of any magnitude ever did.
I, too, wanted to see the miraculous of the 40's and 50's. Questions flew through my mind many times, "Was I mistaken?"
I do not think I was alone in that, however I will admit I learned later, to my shame, I was never called into the preaching ministry, although the one church I did organize and build is and has been a soul winning station. So I can believe God can and does use an unfit vessel for good. 
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Posts: 24285
11/14/15 7:44 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
| Cojak wrote: |
I believe every young pastor fasts, cries and prays for miracles in his church. I know I did in my short ministry. None of any magnitude ever did.
I, too, wanted to see the miraculous of the 40's and 50's. Questions flew through my mind many times, "Was I mistaken?"
I do not think I was alone in that, however I will admit I learned later, to my shame, I was never called into the preaching ministry, although the one church I did organize and build is and has been a soul winning station. So I can believe God can and does use an unfit vessel for good. |
Cojak, my friend...we are all unfit vessels. God uses broken people to spread His message of grace & truth. You were doing your best to follow what you believed was God's will for your life, and there's a lot good to be said for that. You should be proud of your time in the ministry, especially if you built a church that is still winning souls!
I've seen a couple of miracles in my life with physical healing and there have been numerous financial miracles.
Perhaps God removed the "healing era" we experienced for a season because of so much unbelief. I don't know...but I long to see and experience that, too.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
11/14/15 7:58 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | | Perhaps God removed the "healing era" we experienced for a season because of so much unbelief. |
Carolyn, could the ole timer offer another possibility?
In the heyday of healing revivals, the discipline of medicine wasn't nearly as advanced as it is today. Did miracles/healings occur? Absolutely! But there was also, just as today, a great number of persons who were merely charlatans--preying on the desire of the masses to be healed. In those days, when a healing was announced, unless it was something visible, and among the few who perhaps knew the person long term, who could verify it? There was no Internet. No way for the average person to validate a purported healing. Because of this, many healings were advertised that were not verifiable, and have not been to this day. I am a firm believer that God continues to heal, perform miracles, etc. in 2015, and will continue to do so until Jesus returns. What I don't believe is that every advertised healing is a legitimate God-wrought healing. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
11/14/15 9:15 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Carolyn Smith wrote: | | Perhaps God removed the "healing era" we experienced for a season because of so much unbelief. |
Carolyn, could the ole timer offer another possibility?
In the heyday of healing revivals, the discipline of medicine wasn't nearly as advanced as it is today. Did miracles/healings occur? Absolutely! But there was also, just as today, a great number of persons who were merely charlatans--preying on the desire of the masses to be healed. In those days, when a healing was announced, unless it was something visible, and among the few who perhaps knew the person long term, who could verify it? There was no Internet. No way for the average person to validate a purported healing. Because of this, many healings were advertised that were not verifiable, and have not been to this day. I am a firm believer that God continues to heal, perform miracles, etc. in 2015, and will continue to do so until Jesus returns. What I don't believe is that every advertised healing is a legitimate God-wrought healing. |
I'm sure there were charlatans and many unverified miracles. But there were plenty that were genuine. When people get up out of wheelchairs & throw down their crutches & walk, it's pretty hard to explain away. While I'm sure some miracles were "unverified," I've heard plenty of stories of people who were present in the meetings and received from the Lord. Why dwell on the negative of "unverified" healings? People were healed by the power of God...and many Pentecostal churches are sadly lacking that power today.
What I was referring to was the criticism, disdain, and unbelief that Oral Roberts, Jack Coe, AA Allen and many others received from the Church. Their biggest critics were not from the world, but from the Church.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
11/15/15 11:03 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | When people get up out of wheelchairs & throw down their crutches & walk, it's pretty hard to explain away. While I'm sure some miracles were "unverified," I've heard plenty of stories of people who were present in the meetings and received from the Lord. Why dwell on the negative of "unverified" healings? People were healed by the power of God...and many Pentecostal churches are sadly lacking that power today.
What I was referring to was the criticism, disdain, and unbelief that Oral Roberts, Jack Coe, AA Allen and many others received from the Church. Their biggest critics were not from the world, but from the Church. |
It isn't difficult at all to discount folk gittin outta wheelchairs an throwin away crutches. It could be that they was never paralyzed in the first place. Their called "plants," folk planted to appear to be invalid, after prayer they git up an it looks like they been healed. The audience don't know whether they was healed or not. I aint "dwellin" on the unverified healins, I'm merely offerin a alternative viewpoint.
Regarding Roberts/Coe/Allen/ilk, the church is the first place discernment should occur. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
11/15/15 11:29 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
Tell ya what, OT... you focus on the ones that weren't real, and I'll focus on the ones that were healed. Because there were many, many who were healed.
I just taught yesterday about how the Pharisees were upset that Jesus healed on the Sabbath instead of rejoicing over the paralyzed man who was healed. Never fails to amaze me.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
11/16/15 6:46 am
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JLarry |
Carolyn you have a good memory.
| Quote: | | Didn't you post the video of the woman who got out of the wheelchair in the revival in MS or LA last year? That was pretty awesome. |
Yes I did post the video. I was referring to my being in a meeting and personally seeing a paralyzed person was healed.
Glad to brought this up. I want to see if I can find a recent video of that lady. She received prayer at John Kilpatrick's church. I trust Pastor Kilpatrick, but would love to see a recent video. That would be a great testimony.
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No one who died without Christ is happy about their decision. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3346
11/16/15 9:37 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | Tell ya what, OT... you focus on the ones that weren't real, and I'll focus on the ones that were healed. Because there were many, many who were healed.
I just taught yesterday about how the Pharisees were upset that Jesus healed on the Sabbath instead of rejoicing over the paralyzed man who was healed. Never fails to amaze me. |
Carolyn, I ain't focusin on them what was not healed. I was addressin what some say, that we don't see nairy as many healed today. I agree with ya that many many folk WAS healed, but ever single one of em died of somethin later on--lessen they still livin, an even then they gonna die. The Pharisees were not upset about the healing, they was upset about the Sabbath. To discern, validate, verify IS NOT bein a Pharisee, IT IS doing exactly what John said to do, to discern the spirits to see if they from God. I aint trying to argue with ya bout healing, hey, I know God heals. But I also know that not everybody is healed. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
11/16/15 10:09 am
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| (L)(V) |
Link |
Street healing seems to be in vogue. This is a video of a guy I mentioned earlier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOCE--KFaVw
He doesn't go clean out the hospitals. He seems to see healing as more of a tool for evangelism. When he goes out on the streets, young people will talk to him. Older people are usually busy and uninterested and walk by. So he tends to focus more on younger people.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
11/16/15 2:02 pm
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