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 So, the blessings from tithing have been cancelled? |
doyle |
For about 5,000 years, God's people have been tithing and as a result, over the many centuries the work of God progressed and the Gospel has been brought forward to our day. Just in our own denomination, many thousands of our members and ministers have tithed. Even during the Great Depression, World War II, Korean War and Vietnam, our members and ministers tithed.
In times of plenty and when the economy was on the bottom, our people tithed. Almost every church in our organization was built and paid for by tithers. Those tithes provided nearly all of us in ministry, a place to preach and in thousands of cases, helped support ministry families.
In fact, had it not been for tithers, many of us would not have heard the Gospel and would be on our way to Hell instead of headed for Heaven; lost to eternity with Christ.
Now, we learn from some of our posters that those poor tithing saps were duped all along. Though what they tithed and gave in offerings has been used to build churches, send missionaries, support ministers and their family and most of all, help win souls to Christ, they were and are ALL MISTAKEN.
Others sacrificed to bring the Gospel forward to us but at this juncture in time there is a massive effort to show how wise we are now and how foolish, Oh, how foolish, all those tithers have been and especially since New Testament days when Jesus told people in Matthew 23:232 that they "ought" to tithe.
Of course, the words of Jesus have been taken to task too for our wise posters share that what Jesus said before the Crucifixion was under the Law and therefore is not binding. That knocks out most of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John so with them neutralized and the Old Testament cancelled out too, about all that's left are the many letters of Apostle Paul.
Of course, since he wrote to churches back then, our name is not on the list so nothing he said was talking to us now. So, what Jesus said to people back then is of non-effect and what Paul said applies only to them, nearly the entire Bible is classified as null and void for us now.
Tithing began in the Book of Genesis and was still in strong evidence in the last book of the Old Testament, Malachi. In Malachi, the Prophet cried out against those who were robbing God but at the same time, pronounced amazing blessings on those who were faithful in tithing.
Since all of us who tithe are such saps for not grasping that God has completely changed His mind about tithing, does that mean all those wonderful "Prove me now saith God" blessings promised to those who tithe, are cancelled?
Does it mean that instead of God opening the windows of Heaven to pour us out blessings, that the windows are now closed?
I suppose the Lord's promise to return, often referred to as the Second Coming, won't happen for us either. The promise was made to others when we were not present.
One of the promises to tithers was that God would keep the "Devourer" away. Is that promise now cancelled too? I mean, if tithing is only for uninformed dummies as some incredibly wise posters claim, then how can people who are duped and are dummies, receive blessings which were promised in the Old Testament?
Should we apologize that we've been blessed for years from being a faithful tither. I sure didn't mean to be receiving blessings I wasn't supposed to.
Not to worry, those who don't believe tithing is for today, still receive tithes from the faithful. They have a different plan which encourages people to give a portion of their income without feeling bound by tradition. Of course, they want people to give at least 10 percent of their income which amazingly, sounds a lot like tithing.
Love ya guys.
Doyle
_________________
The largest room in the world is the room for improvement.
Last edited by doyle on 5/29/14 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-celerate Owner
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5/28/14 5:49 am
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| Sowing and reaping, giving and receiving[Long] |
Randy Johnson |
Doyle,
Open your mind and think, my friend, don't just react to challenges because they go against the tradition you've been taught all your life. <the previous sentence was not meant in any way, shape or form as an insult or put-down to Doyle, it is more of a plea>
First of all, you seem to be assuming that because we are saying that believers are not obligated to tithe, that what we are really saying is that believers are not to give.
This is not what we're saying. Almost everyone who has posted on this side of the subject has reiterated that believers are to give, and to give generously, and to give cheerfully, sometimes even sacrificially.
However, we are not obligated to give a certain percentage, as a law, that makes us acceptable to God if we do give, and under a curse by God if we don't.
As believers we are free to give 10%, 15%, 20%, 50% or even 100%. We are free in Christ to do so but under no obligation to do so. The kingdom of Jesus is not dependent on Mammon (money). [Some of our pet projects are - but Jesus' kingdom is not]
If we were perfectly honest, we would admit that the real reason we teach tithing as an obligation is out of fear, fear that if we don't obligate our congregation to giving a set amount they won't give very much at all.
For some people that fear is well-founded. Pastors know their people (or at least they should). They can calculate the average income of their congregation if they know their professions and did some research on average salaries for those jobs.
But once again, Jesus' kingdom is not dependent on money. What we are building or attempting to build in the name of Jesus' kingdom may heavily depend on money, but if it does, then we need to be honest and ask the question, "What are we really building?" and "Who are we really building it for?" And if after prayer and consideration we come to an agreement (as a congregation) that we really do "need" this thing to minister more effectively, then by all means build it. But - don't use pseudo-spiritual langauge to manipulate people out of their money.
What about people who consistently give nothing or very little? The Scriptures address that in the teachings of Jesus about sowing and reaping, and the teachings of the Apostles about giving and receiving.
The "blessings of tithing" that you refer to in Scripture were given to a specific group of people (Israel), under a specific covenant (Moses), for a specific period of time (until Jesus cut the new covenant on Calvary).
Since that time the "law" of tithing has been surpassed by the "law that gives liberty"; and the "blessings of tithing" have been surpassed by the blessings of sowing and reaping, and the blessings of giving and receiving.
The bottom line is: God still blesses those who give.
However, God does not command us - the new creation in Christ Jesus - to give in the same manner that He commanded Israel under Moses.
The motivation for giving today is not obedience to the law. The motivation for giving today is love, agape love. I'm not talking here about a warm, fuzzy feeling of sentimentality towards God or another person. I'm talking here about a disposition and attitude that desires to see needs met, and does not merely love in words or tongue, but in actions and in truth.
A true believer in Jesus as the Christ recognizes that everything they own and everything they possess belongs to the King (Christ). A true believer who is born of God loves the children of God, and out of that love they give of the resources Christ has entrusted to them, in order to meet the needs of their brothers and sisters.
A true believer understands the principles of sowing and reaping, giving and receiving. They do not give as a debt they owe; they give as a seed they sow, and they look to God (who is the Owner of everything they "have") as their Source and the Provider of everything they need.
A true believer recognizes that "they own nothing" but are only stewards of what God places in their hands. As a result, their "lifestyle" and expenditures are informed by the Holy Spirit who leads them, and governed by Christ instead of their own flesh.
What about all those preachers and people who tithed in the past? They were blessed, not because they tithed, but because they gave: generously, cheerfully, and oftentimes sacrificially. The principles of sowing and reaping, giving and receiving, operated in their lives, even though they called it by another name (God is faithful)
So why not just keep on calling it tithing, especially since people are giving and getting blessed anyway? Because teaching tithing as a law enables unscrupulous wolves in shepherds' clothing to continue to fleece the flock by using manipulative langauge to compel people to give out of fear instead of faith and love.
The principles of sowing and reaping, giving and receiving, require the individual believer to train themselves to listen to the Spirit's voice and to be led by the Spirit rather than by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
The reason we feel compelled to keep putting people under a law of tithing may be because of inadequate discipleship concerning our identity in Christ and how to recognize, hear, and be led by the Spirit. After all, if we are led by the Spirit we are not under law; however, if we don't know how to hear the Spirit for ourselves, then it is no surprise that we place ourselves back under the law as a form of protection.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
5/28/14 8:45 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Good post, Randy. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
5/28/14 9:22 am
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| great post |
wayne |
I choose to be classified with all those dummies.
Pastor Dummy |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
5/28/14 10:11 am
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| I do not teach tithing |
MS7777 |
out of fear my people won't give if I don't I teach it because I believe Abraham tithed BEFORE the Law was given and I believe the principle is honored by God. I got tired of my Deacons who take the offering for us getting tongue tied and prattling on and on so I wrote this many years ago. Now my Deacons and my church have seen its results and I NEVER even mention tithing - they do and they live it and have reaped its benefits so much they won't shut up. Now they take longer taking the offering than they did before - but it's because they have seen that giving to God is rewarded (no, not always financially). He blesses obedience and sacrifice. You don't have to do it nor do you have to believe it. I choose to and I model it and teach it. And I am blessed. I know OTCP and others will have some problems with it but that's the way it is.
TITHE & OFFERING BLESSING
for
(fill in the blank church)
I prophesy and declare financial blessing upon you and your house today. I call forth blessings to rain down upon you as you faithfully observe God’s command to tithe and give offerings to His House. Has the Lord not said He would open the very windows of heaven and pour forth the resources of all heaven upon His people as they obey His Word? I declare there will always be plenty and no lack in the Lords’ people’s finances and in His House. I declare jobs and raises for those who need them and for those who own their own companies I declare the favor of the Lord upon them as you get the resources and jobs you need to become successful. I proclaim financial freedom to those who are in debt as the Lord provides miraculously to overcome that debt and the stress of that debt. Because you are obedient and are faithful in this act of giving to Him, settlements and investments and those things that have been held up in the courts that are rightfully yours will be released into your hand. Restrictions are lifted and God’s favor will flow freely to you as God rebukes the devourer for His Name’s sake. Prosperity and blessing will overtake and overwhelm you. Therefore, I bless you in Jesus’ powerful and mighty Name!
Say this with me, “I expect 100-fold return of all I give and I receive the blessing of the Lord as I give joyfully!”
(you rarely get more than what you expect)
_________________
Acts 1:8 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 725
5/28/14 2:27 pm
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| Before the Law ... |
Mat |
Before the Law, long before the Law, Abraham (Father of the Faithful) gave a tenth of increase to Melchizekek, who then blessed Abraham. The greater blesses the lesser and the lesser, by faith, pays tithes to the greater (Hebrews 7). This principle is embedded in faith, not the Law of Moses, as it both predates and postdates the Law. Even Jesus said don't stop tithing (Luke 11:42), but realize it is not all there is to living by faith.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
5/28/14 5:20 pm
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Randy Johnson |
Ok, if you want to tithe like Abraham tithed, then do it right.
First, get one of your relatives kidnapped by a gang of some sort and their stuff stolen as well.
Second, get your own army together and go fight the gang and get the stuff back.
Third, and this is most important, TITHE ONCE, only of the stuff you got back that belonged to your relative.
Do not tithe any of your personal possessions, because Abraham did not tithe any of his personal possessions, he only tithed on what he won through combat.
Abraham tithed ONCE, and he tithed OTHER PEOPLES' STUFF, not his own stuff.
Finally, there is no place in Scripture where we are instructed to tithe because Abraham tithed. The reference in Hebrews is not a command to tithe, if anything, it was an admonition to the Hebrew believers who were being tempted to go back to Judaism that there was no more need for a tithe, since in reality Abraham already paid it for all of them!
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
5/28/14 6:07 pm
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John Stevenson |
How do you know that this is the only time that Abraham tithed?
_________________
www.bwcuhrichsville.org |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 671
5/28/14 6:37 pm
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Randy Johnson |
| John Stevenson wrote: | | How do you know that this is the only time that Abraham tithed? |
And how do you know it wasn't?
God warns us not to add to His words or take away from them.
Saying that Abraham tithed once is neither adding or taking away.
It is not adding, because Scripture does say that he tithed at least once.
It is not taking away, because Scripture does not say he tithed more than once.
However, it is adding to Scripture to say that we should tithe continuously on the basis of Abraham tithing at least once.
It is also a shell game. We demand a continuous tithe of peoples' own money based on what at best can be described as a single event of Abraham tithing SOMEONE ELSE'S PROPERTY other than his own.
If Abraham had brought along a tithe of his own livestock, in addition to the tithe of the war booty he brought back from battle, then we would have a leg to stand on in claiming that tithing one's personal income or possessions was a standard practice before the Law.
However, Scripture is pretty clear that all Abraham brought with him from home was what was necessary to fight the battle. He traveled light because he was going to war. The only thing he had to tithe on when he met Melchizedek, was the stolen property of Lot and the Sodomites.
So Abraham did not "tithe" in the way that we instruct and expect people to tithe today. Abraham's tithe wasn't from his own flocks or herds or possessions, which would be the equivalent of us tithing our paychecks today.
Abraham's tithe was a tithe of the spoils of war, a tithe on what he owned by right of conquest. That is a totally different thing from him tithing on his own assets.
To use Abraham's tithe as a platform for insisting that people tithe today is a logical, Scriptural, and spiritual fallacy. It is special pleading to maintain tradition rather than reveal truth.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
5/28/14 7:27 pm
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Charles Fultz |
Doyle we are living in a selfish generation. Many are willing to Tip the Lord but Tithe to the Lord, come on....!?!
Regards,
Charles Fultz
(It is however a very good post Doyle!)
_________________
www.freechapeloc.org |
Friendly Face
Posts: 185
5/28/14 7:49 pm
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| Re: I do not teach tithing |
Randy Johnson |
| MS7777 wrote: |
I do not teach tithing out of fear my people won't give if I don't. I teach it because I believe Abraham tithed BEFORE the Law was given and I believe the principle is honored by God. |
Abraham tithed ONCE before the law was given, and he did not tithe his own property, it stayed at home with Sarah. Abraham only tithed on what he brought back from defeating the kings who captured Lot and Sodom. It was not a regular practice, it was a one time voluntary offering of thanksgiving for protection and victory in battle. It is disingenuous to distort and twist Scripture until it bleeds simply to get money out of people.
What is honored by God is the principle of giving and receiving, sowing and reaping, not "tithing".
Now, anyone is free to tithe, if that is the percentage God has placed on their heart, and God will bless them for their faithfulness in listening to and obeying Him. Some are obligated to tithe because they have agreed to do so, however, "tithing" is not a magic talisman that forces God's hand.
| MS7777 wrote: |
I got tired of my Deacons who take the offering for us getting tongue tied and prattling on and on so I wrote this many years ago. Now my Deacons and my church have seen its results and I NEVER even mention tithing - they do and they live it and have reaped its benefits so much they won't shut up. Now they take longer taking the offering than they did before - but it's because they have seen that giving to God is rewarded (no, not always financially). He blesses obedience and sacrifice. You don't have to do it nor do you have to believe it. I choose to and I model it and teach it. And I am blessed. I know OTCP and others will have some problems with it but that's the way it is.
TITHE & OFFERING BLESSING
for
(fill in the blank church)
I prophesy and declare financial blessing upon you and your house today. I call forth blessings to rain down upon you as you faithfully observe God’s command to tithe and give offerings to His House. Has the Lord not said He would open the very windows of heaven and pour forth the resources of all heaven upon His people as they obey His Word? I declare there will always be plenty and no lack in the Lords’ people’s finances and in His House. I declare jobs and raises for those who need them and for those who own their own companies I declare the favor of the Lord upon them as you get the resources and jobs you need to become successful. I proclaim financial freedom to those who are in debt as the Lord provides miraculously to overcome that debt and the stress of that debt. Because you are obedient and are faithful in this act of giving to Him, settlements and investments and those things that have been held up in the courts that are rightfully yours will be released into your hand. Restrictions are lifted and God’s favor will flow freely to you as God rebukes the devourer for His Name’s sake. Prosperity and blessing will overtake and overwhelm you. Therefore, I bless you in Jesus’ powerful and mighty Name!
Say this with me, “I expect 100-fold return of all I give and I receive the blessing of the Lord as I give joyfully!”
(you rarely get more than what you expect) |
You got tired? You got tired! So instead of just letting these men speak from their hearts, you muzzle them (to keep decorum and maintain control???) and provide them with an incantation in which YOU prophesy, YOU call forth and YOU declare, and being the pragmatic Americans that we are - as long as the cash flows in, you're satisfied????
I apologize if you feel I'm insulting you or getting too personal, but what you just wrote really rankled me.
Back in his day, the Apostle Paul had to deal with the fallout of those who "put on a mask to cover up greed", and I believe we're still having to do the same thing today. Especially as Amercans, we have to find some way to salve our consciences to justify the disparity between our standard of living and that of most of the rest of the world around us. So we clothe our greed in spiritual words and make "God's blessings" responsible for our failure to give to the poor within our own congregations as well as the communities in which we find our churches. We call on God to work magic for the people we collect money from, while failing to open our own hands and coffers to meet their needs.
"Tithing" is the modern 'Corban' of the American church. What percentage of the monies we receive in tithes goes first to the poor widows and single mothers in our own congregations? I'm not talking about "food banks" and giving to "outreach ministries" that provide food and/or clothing to strangers. I'm talking about cash in the hand that buys food for the families right in our churches, and helps to pay their rent and utility bills. What percentage? How much? What amount? Tell me! I bet it's not a "tithe" of what comes in, is it?
How much goes to interest payments and principal on financing? How much goes to maintaining and paying utilities on a building that sometimes isn't used for the majority of the week? How much goes to salaries of preachers and other ministers who set themselves on display as models and proof of "God's blessing", when in reality their entire income and standard of living is dependent on the donations of church members instead of "working with their own hands" to supply their needs, so as to be a model to the flock, and not be dependent on the church or others.
How much more effective do you think our ministries might be if we worked a normal job like everyone else, rubbing shoulders with the sheep in the marketplace, being surrounded by the opponents and enemies of the faith, and leading by example by living out our faith in the same hostile environment our tithing members have to face every day?
Just for the record, I tithe, every time I get a check. I tithe because that is the amount the Lord has placed on my heart to give, and it just so happens that the amount I tithe is just about equal to the amount of compensation I receive from my church. When I am able I take my own money to pay for things I do not feel my church can afford or should have to pay for if they are "iffy things", as my clerk likes to say.
I tithe, but I know that tithing isn't "magic" and I know that God isn't running a protection racket or stealing from others in order to "bless" me. People who tithe aren't exempt or protected from tragedy, or sickness, or accidents, or failed relationships, or anything else. Things happen to people, both good and bad, regardless of whether they tithe or not.
Jesus did not promise us health and wealth in this world. He promised us tribulation. He promised to provide for our needs (food, clothing, shelter). He promised us that the world would hate us as His disciples if they hated Him first. It's time to stop the manipulative talk that preys on gullible people so that they treat giving to God the same way they treat the lottery.
And it's time to stop spending God's money on things in this world that are not eternal and are just going to burn in a fervent heat when Jesus returns. Jesus' words, "It is more blessed to give than receive," applies to our churches as well as the people we "pass the plate" to.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5431
5/28/14 7:49 pm
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| Re: Before the Law ... |
Resident Skeptic |
| Mat wrote: | Before the Law, long before the Law, Abraham (Father of the Faithful) gave a tenth of increase to Melchizekek, who then blessed Abraham. The greater blesses the lesser and the lesser, by faith, pays tithes to the greater (Hebrews 7). This principle is embedded in faith, not the Law of Moses, as it both predates and postdates the Law. Even Jesus said don't stop tithing (Luke 11:42), but realize it is not all there is to living by faith.
Mat |
He did it once.God never told him to. No record he did it again.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/28/14 7:52 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
Tithing was abolished with the rest of the cereminial Law at Calavary. With it died all blessing and curses associated with it. There are no Biblical tithers today, just people who give ten percent of their money to the church and pretend that is tithing commanded by God. They are not tithers. There have been no tithers since the Romans leveled the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD.
You who claim to be tithers are nothing more than givers who have decided to give a certain percentage. More power to you. I don't encourage you to give less. But you are not doing something that is mandated by God anywhere in his word and are not promised any special blessing for doing so, or any curse for not doing so.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/28/14 7:58 pm
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bradfreeman |
Under the new covenant faith, not works of the Law, brings us the very righteousness of God as a free gift and all the favor and blessing that freely comes with being "in Christ". In Christ, all of God's promised blessings are YES!
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/28/14 8:26 pm
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philunderwood |
It's not that tithing is wrong, it just allows people to settle and feel they've done their part and that they are in control of the other 90%. It is an anti-discipleship activity as it is taught.
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www.bluewaterinthekeys.com |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
5/28/14 9:57 pm
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| lol |
Tracy S Hamilton |
| Tithing is NOT law. Not sure how this keeps getting mentioned. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2714
5/28/14 10:05 pm
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| Re: lol |
Resident Skeptic |
| Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | Tithing is NOT law. Not sure how this keeps getting mentioned. |
The only tithing in the Bible that was ever made compulsory by God was indeed LAW. That would be the tithing in the Law of Moses.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/28/14 10:31 pm
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| Re: lol |
Nick Park |
| Tracy S Hamilton wrote: | | Tithing is NOT law. Not sure how this keeps getting mentioned. |
It's an age-old tactic. If you repeat a lie often enough then you will eventually find that a sufficiently large group of people believe it to suit your purposes.
The word 'tithe' is simply an old English word for 'tenth'. You can voluntarily choose to tithe and receive blessings irrespective of the law. It is a very useful and fair system for members of a congregation to choose to adopt to ensure that ministry activities are adequately funded.
Of course if you start preaching that those who don't do it are thieves or cursed then it becomes law.
_________________
Senior Pastor, Solid Rock Church, Drogheda
National Overseer, Church of God, Ireland
Executive Director, Evangelical Alliance Ireland
http://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/ |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
5/29/14 6:47 am
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bigchurchmouse |
delete
Last edited by bigchurchmouse on 5/29/14 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
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5/29/14 7:05 am
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