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When is it not God's will to heal?
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Post Re: Clint, you make an interesting point... roughridercog
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
Mark Ledbetter wrote:
As a teen Joni Eareckson Tada dove into shallow water and an injury to her neck left her a quadriplegic. Joni became an artist using her teeth and became influential in both the Christian and secular communities.

Her faith didn't provide her healing and her condition helped in the proclamation of God's kingdom.

Who is to say her healing would have better served God's purposes?


Excellent example there Mark. But Copeland and ilk will say her faith aint adequate an her lack a healin his her own fault. An they is a few folk right here on Acts who thinks Copelands words/teachin is gospel. They is 5 gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Kenneth. Sad, but true.


No doubt he will sell you the faith along with his new DVD and book
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12/2/13 3:54 pm


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Post Re: The Prayer of Faith for the Sick bradfreeman
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:

Do you find it more palatable to explain to the sick that they remain sick because (1) no one has yet prayed a prayer of faith (in the case of the innocently ill) or (2) the sin causing the sickness is not forgiven or confessed?


Its a heap more palatable (whatever at means) to tell folk the truth for they ever git sick. That bein, a steady diet a truth. That God don't always heal in this life. But in the life to come, son you talk about shoutin.................


Would the truth you'd be telling them be that "the prayer of faith will restore the one who is sick"?

Or would the truth you'd be telling them be that Jesus redeemed us from God punishing sin with any sickness written in the book of the law and with any sickness not written in the book of the law (Deut. 28:61)?

Would the "truth" you'd be telling them be what your experience has taught you or what the the Word of God says?

Do you assume God doesn't want everyone saved because not everyone is saved? Or do you believe the truth that God wants everyone saved regardless of your experience?
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12/2/13 4:56 pm


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Post Re: The Prayer of Faith for the Sick Patrick Harris
bradfreeman wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:

Do you find it more palatable to explain to the sick that they remain sick because (1) no one has yet prayed a prayer of faith (in the case of the innocently ill) or (2) the sin causing the sickness is not forgiven or confessed?


Its a heap more palatable (whatever at means) to tell folk the truth for they ever git sick. That bein, a steady diet a truth. That God don't always heal in this life. But in the life to come, son you talk about shoutin.................


Would the truth you'd be telling them be that "the prayer of faith will restore the one who is sick"?

Or would the truth you'd be telling them be that Jesus redeemed us from God punishing sin with any sickness written in the book of the law and with any sickness not written in the book of the law (Deut. 28:61)?

Would the "truth" you'd be telling them be what your experience has taught you or what the the Word of God says?

Do you assume God doesn't want everyone saved because not everyone is saved? Or do you believe the truth that God wants everyone saved regardless of your experience?


I'm still not clear as what you would tell someone.
If someone asked you flat out if their lack of faith is the reason they are not healed, what would your reply be?
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12/2/13 7:37 pm


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Post Re: The Prayer of Faith for the Sick bradfreeman
Patrick Harris wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:

Do you find it more palatable to explain to the sick that they remain sick because (1) no one has yet prayed a prayer of faith (in the case of the innocently ill) or (2) the sin causing the sickness is not forgiven or confessed?


Its a heap more palatable (whatever at means) to tell folk the truth for they ever git sick. That bein, a steady diet a truth. That God don't always heal in this life. But in the life to come, son you talk about shoutin.................


Would the truth you'd be telling them be that "the prayer of faith will restore the one who is sick"?

Or would the truth you'd be telling them be that Jesus redeemed us from God punishing sin with any sickness written in the book of the law and with any sickness not written in the book of the law (Deut. 28:61)?

Would the "truth" you'd be telling them be what your experience has taught you or what the the Word of God says?

Do you assume God doesn't want everyone saved because not everyone is saved? Or do you believe the truth that God wants everyone saved regardless of your experience?


I'm still not clear as what you would tell someone.
If someone asked you flat out if their lack of faith is the reason they are not healed, what would your reply be?


My answer is twofold:
1. God's curse against sin is done away with in Christ! So I would make it clear that God is not punishing them for sin.
2. We must, by faith, receive the work of Christ in redemption for healing the same as for salvation. All are not saved, still it is Gods will that all be saved. All are not healed, yet healing is available for all in redemption.

So our lack of ability to free our minds from an old covenant mentality of earned health, blessing and righteousness is an easier pill to swallow than diminishing the cross by preaching that Christ did not satisfy God's wrath against sin on the cross. I would share the truth of redemption, allow God's people to hear and believe in what Christ did and see how much of His kingdom and will are done on earth as in Heaven!
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12/2/13 10:49 pm


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Post Re: The Prayer of Faith for the Sick Patrick Harris
bradfreeman wrote:


My answer is twofold:
1. God's curse against sin is done away with in Christ! So I would make it clear that God is not punishing them for sin.
2. We must, by faith, receive the work of Christ in redemption for healing the same as for salvation. All are not saved, still it is Gods will that all be saved. All are not healed, yet healing is available for all in redemption.

So our lack of ability to free our minds from an old covenant mentality of earned health, blessing and righteousness is an easier pill to swallow than diminishing the cross by preaching that Christ did not satisfy God's wrath against sin on the cross. I would share the truth of redemption, allow God's people to hear and believe in what Christ did and see how much of His kingdom and will are done on earth as in Heaven!


So do you believe God has an obligation to heal someone if someone prays in faith?
I'm not convinced that we shouldn't tell them that whether or not they are healed is a matter of Gods will. It's a far better answer than telling someone that lack of faith is the reason their sick or dying.

I see no scriptural evidence that God has an obligation to heal someone.
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12/2/13 11:08 pm


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Post Re: The Prayer of Faith for the Sick bradfreeman
Patrick Harris wrote:
So do you believe God has an obligation to heal someone if someone prays in faith?
I'm not convinced that we shouldn't tell them that whether or not they are healed is a matter of Gods will. It's a far better answer than telling someone that lack of faith is the reason their sick or dying.

I see no scriptural evidence that God has an obligation to heal someone.


I believe Jesus took all sickness and disease upon himself on the cross and that, by His stripes, we were healed. I believe that Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father and the Father said to Him:

Heb. 1:13 But to which of the angels has He ever said, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET "?

Heb. 8:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.

The Father has committed Himself to enforce the victory of His Son over every foe, every principality, power, sin, sickness, curse and enemy of all kind...every name named. The Father obligated Himself to make His Son's enemies His footstool. To characterize the Father's covenant with His Son as an obligation is accurate. But that term fails to accurately capture the passionate love of the Father for world and His Son. God so loved the world that He set in motion the wheels of redemption. It is now the Father's good pleasure to give us the kingdom of God!

The Holy Spirit is the instrument of change in the earth (the kingdom of God), as it was from the beginning. The Holy Spirit was brooding over the formless, darkened void of the earth awaiting the word of the Father to bring light, order and life to earth. God has now sent the Holy Spirit into our hearts and now waits for us to speak the word of the Father to release living water, light, love, truth, life, freedom and power from our innermost being and bring about change in the earth.

Eph. 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,

God wants His will and kingdom done on earth as in Heaven - it's His good pleasure to carry out His covenant to put all enemies under His beautiful Son's feet. Luke 12:32 There is no disease in Heaven. We, as co-laborers with God, are now simply enforcing the victory Jesus has already won when He overcame the world and everything in it! Rom. 16:3; 1 Cor. 3:9; 2 Cor. 1:24; Col. 4:11; 3 Jn. 1:8.

Rom. 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

I am trying to share Paul's confidence in God's commitment, covenant, obligation to put every enemy under the feet of His Son - we are the body of Christ, so the enemies go under our feet!
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12/3/13 6:46 am


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Post Patrick Harris
Brad
Let's look at it from a more personal and practical side.
I have a friend who is a pastor and my closest friend for 35 years.
In those 35 years I don't know a family more committed to living by faith then they are. They don't live paycheck to paycheck but from faith to faith

In the last 3 months, he's lost a brother and a father in law to cancer. I can't think of anyone who could have had more faith for someone to live then this family, yet they died.

So I'm left with two possibilities; either our faith does not always heal someone and God has the bigger picture and I may not need to understand why things happen OR the Bible is not true.

Because if you come to me and say that healing is like salvation and some are not saved and some are not healed because of faith, it sounds good but it's not reality and doesn't work when walking a family through a death.
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12/3/13 7:16 am


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Post bradfreeman
Patrick Harris wrote:
Brad
Let's look at it from a more personal and practical side.
I have a friend who is a pastor and my closest friend for 35 years.
In those 35 years I don't know a family more committed to living by faith then they are. They don't live paycheck to paycheck but from faith to faith

In the last 3 months, he's lost a brother and a father in law to cancer. I can't think of anyone who could have had more faith for someone to live then this family, yet they died.

So I'm left with two possibilities; either our faith does not always heal someone and God has the bigger picture and I may not need to understand why things happen OR the Bible is not true.

Because if you come to me and say that healing is like salvation and some are not saved and some are not healed because of faith, it sounds good but it's not reality and doesn't work when walking a family through a death.


I'm very sorry to hear about your friends tragedy. I try not to let my experience dictate my view of Bible truth. The truth is: Faith accesses grace. (Rom. 5:2; Eph. 2:8,9) God's promises are big and bold in Christ...and, in Christ, all of God's promises are "yes" and "amen". I wouldn't and won't criticize anyone when they don't see the "yes" and "amen" manifest in their lives - I don't always see it either. I will, however, keep proclaiming the victory of Christ over all sin and all the effects of sin. I will try to help all of us grow in our understanding of all that Christ did and all that God is doing to bring about the restoration of all things, the reversal of the curse and His kingdom and will in the earth. Let's just keep proclaiming the truth of Christ's victory and finished work and letting the faith God's people arise see how much of His kingdom and will we can bring to earth! When we don't see it happen in a situation, it's not important to point fingers or find fault - in fact, that's wrong. It's important to encourage those who've endured heartache to keep trusting God and that His plans for us are good.

I know there are many enemies to faith. One is the mind-set that: "I've been faithful to you all of my life Lord, please heal me". This one bases your faith on your performance, putting your faith in your goodness, not His. Another is the belief that God is the author of the sickness you endure as a punishment for some sin. Condemnation is the enemy of faith. This takes your faith off of Christ removing the curse of God's wrath on disobedience as set out in Deut. 28 and John 3:14,15 and disqualifies you from healing when God qualified you. Col. 1:12. It's hard to believe a promise you're not sure God is offering - impossible really.
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12/3/13 7:38 am


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Post I never said that Clint Wills
I didn't say that God wanted anyone sick, and I believe that the Bible is very clear that sickness is not necessarily judgement for sins. In fact, Jesus specifically says that a man was sick in order for Jesus' power to be shown.

If sin had never been introduced, then I don't think sickness would have been a part of our lives. However, like He does in many things, God uses sickness in order to further His Kingdom.
He also uses people losing their jobs, addictions, and all kinds of sins. That, of course, doesn't mean that He WANTS it to happen, but rather that He will makes lemonade out of lemons...and we're the lemons.
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12/3/13 11:00 am


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