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 thoughts part 2 |
W. Ray Williams |
I hope the court strikes down DOMA or the Defense of Marriage Act, but upholds or refuses to rule on the California ban on gay marriage. here is why:
I am more a more becoming a libertarian leaning, democrat that is strongly states rights. (I know and feel the prardoxes inherent that statement.)
It is the right of the individual states to determine what marraige means. Since marriage was not a responsiblity specifically reserved to the Federal govt, it is a state responsibility. that being true:
the state of california, by public referendum, passed a law. the feds should not strike down that law unless it can be shown to violate the US Constitution.
DOMA, is a federal law that attempts to define marriage, which is a right of the state. DOMA is a mis-guided attempt by the federal government to take over a responsibility of the state. it should be struck down.
If a state recognizes a marriage (hetro or homosexual) then the fed government should recognize that marriage. If people want to run to a state that allows same sex marriage to get married, it no different than quickie marriage in Vegas, under-age marriages in Mississippi (in the old days), also in the old days people would go to states that did not require a blood test to get married. The laws and rules of marriage have always been different in different states, and all states have traditionally recognized marriages performed and sanctioned in other states.
Since, as in thought #1 above, we have lost the ability to argue this using moral language....we need to leave it up to each state to regulate the legality of marital unions.
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Pax,
Ray |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
3/28/13 8:40 am
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Eddie Robbins |
| I tend to agree about states' rights, however, if a same-sex couple gets "married" in Massachusetts and moves to Georgia, are they no longer "married" or are they only "married" in Massachusetts? I think this is why the feds get involved. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
3/28/13 8:45 am
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| Sure they are married.... |
W. Ray Williams |
Georgia recognizes marriages performed in Mass. there is no reason they will not recognize a same-sex marriage. again...we have lost the moral argument and can only use the language that has now been defined for the argument. The civil rights language being used will never work in the favor of those who want to restrict same-sex marraige or the recognition of them.
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Pax,
Ray |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
3/28/13 10:23 am
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| Is the marriage even the sin? |
Clint Wills |
The marriage really isn't even the sin - the homosexuality is...right? We aren't talking about legislation that makes a sin legal or illegal, right? We're talking about legislation that allows sinners the same rights we have. Don't most sinners already have the same rights we have? I don't have any Christian OR homosexual co-workers as far as I know, but they can still be married, and are treated exactly like I am from a governmental perspective.
That said, I will vote against same-sex marriage. Not because it is the sin, but because it further purports that life-style as being acceptable in God's eyes. I honestly had a teenager ask me, "if homosexuality is legal, then why is it sin?" Unfortunately legal makes things "seem" right to up-coming generations. Ultimately, however, what my kids know as right and wrong and sin or not is my responsibility, not the government, schools, or media...not even the church for that matter.
I've said this before - lets focus on defeating homosexuality by winning the lost souls that live that lifestyle rather than fighting against them in our legal system. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5161
3/28/13 1:05 pm
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| I am with you Clint... |
W. Ray Williams |
BTW...remember Pre!!
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Pax,
Ray |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
3/28/13 2:19 pm
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mytimewillcome |
| Any Christian man and woman who applied for a marriage license with the state is already violating the biblical definition of marriage |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3658
3/29/13 12:00 am
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Cojak |
| mytimewillcome wrote: | | Any Christian man and woman who applied for a marriage license with the state is already violating the biblical definition of marriage |
Git out of here! Don't tell my wife that, I will be back on the couch for the rest of my life! 
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Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
3/29/13 8:54 am
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Link |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: |
A question for Link. Do you that all of a sudden folks will be kissing each other because they are legally married? Don't they already do that now? It would probably cause them to do less of it just like in a heterosexual marriage. Kids who aren't married are the ones kissing in public. Once they are married, that pretty much stops, doesn't it? |
Legally married means little pecks when you say goodbye and stuff like that. I don't want to see that in public between the same gender. So-called 'gay marriage' means society finds that acceptable. But we'd have to turn back the clock or have a cultural backlash to get it to the point where social stigma was high enough to prevent gays to do it. Fortunately, I've only had to see homosexuals kissing in public once, two young women at Walmart, standing in the checkout line, which is socially unacceptable for heterosexual couples, too.
| Quote: | | I am trying to look into the future at what it would be like if same-sex marriage was the law of the land. How different would our lives be on an every day basis. They already live together. They already have sex. They are already there, working, teaching and living life. How does the legal marriage make it different for us? If you have a gay couple living down the street, how would it be different for you if they had a marriage license? |
It would be more of the same problems we see now in some states, books like 'My Two Mommies' in kindergarten. If the state approves it, it gets into the school curriculum. I don't know how much more pro-homosexuality the media and Hollywood will get. I guess they could have gay kissing scenes on commercials during hours when kids are watching TV. That would be worse. At what point will Christians stop watching TV?
If anyone is an employer, on the federal level there is no 'protection' of people for hiring or discrimination based on what gender they like to have sex with. Some states protect people with certain sexual preferences (they call it 'orientation.') When pedophilia or zoophilia starts getting called an 'orientation', that's also bad for society, especially if the federal government includes sexual orientation in its EEOC policies. In some places, an elementary school already can't discriminate against hiring self-professed homosexuals. What happens if someone can sue for not being hired because he said he was a pedophile-- which he defines as an 'orientation' not action? What about universities doing experiments on animals? What happens when they get sued for not hiring zoophiles?
Those issues aren't directly so-called 'gay marriage' issues, but nation-wide legal acceptance of that idea would probably be followed up by legislation or legislation from the judicial bench that would persecute people for 'discriminating' against wickedness.
Forcing a business owner to take from their own resources and hire a homosexual, or hassling them to prove that wasn't the reason for not hiring someone, is a violation of that business owners rights.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
3/30/13 4:13 pm
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| Dear Eddie |
MS7777 |
you asked a question, "except for spiritual reason" ... Here's the problem with your question, you as a Christian cannot and should not be asking that question. Sure, we can let people do whatever in the confines of their homes as long as it doesn't harm us, right - who cares? In the sixties I bought that lie. If it feels good do it, as long as yu don't hurt anybody was the line. Don't know how old you are but that was the prevailing counter-culture song and dance.
Well, as a Christian, I love sinners but I will suffer from their sin and so will you and so will everyone who sits back and allows this to go on in the name of "can't we all just get along?"
Have you ever read this:
Lev 18:21-30 NIV "'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. (22) "'Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. (23) "'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion. (24) "'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. (25) Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. (26) But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, (27) for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. (2 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. (29) "'Everyone who does any of these detestable things--such persons must be cut off from their people. (30) Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.'"
The reason a just God told the Israelites to utterly destroy all the Caananites was that their sin had reached its apex in the nostrils of God as a stench. And He knew that if He allowed any of them to survive they would be a little leaven that leavened the whole lump and would ultimately lead to Israels' downfall and destruction.
The sin of abortion, homosexuality, beastiality, and so many more things God destroyed so many nations before us is now reaching its zenith before our eyes. It will harm you and your family when before your eyes God judges this nation just as He has so many before us. God cannot be mocked. You want a dialogue? How about standing up for righteousness that exalts a nation instead of trying to discuss how open-minded you are about sin that is a reproach to this nation and will ultimately bring about its decline and fall.
Btw I'm not being harsh to sinners, I try to love them into the kingdom but this discussion has gone way too far and needs to stop. IMO
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Acts 1:8 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 725
3/30/13 7:00 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
I could ask....except for the spiritual, how do you think the lottery affects you? or, except for the spiritual, how do you feel alcohol affects you? I can think of lots of hypothetical questions to discuss in order to find out how a particular sin affects you economically or any other reason.
Some have the ability to discuss it and others don't. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
3/30/13 8:57 pm
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| It's not that we can't discuss |
MS7777 |
things but your analogy of alcohol, lottery are not in the same category as abortion, same-sex marriage et al which are expressly forbidden as abominations in the sight of God. Abortion doesn't affect me personally but the cries of the unborn ring in my ears as an affront to a loving God who made them in His image. People can have sex with whomever or whatever but discussing these things from a distance in a casual way misses the point. We may be losing the culture war but we shouldn't just blithely accept it and not stand for righteousness even while the world is sliding to Gahenna. I am required to shout Jesus from the rooftops while I still can and I will call sin, sin. In love to be sure, but still I must stand and warn about the consequences. Everything I do and live by is colored by the Word. I can't divorce myself from it and will not. You go ahead if you must.
Blessings
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Acts 1:8 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 725
3/31/13 7:28 am
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Eddie Robbins |
| We could discuss the economic affect of abortion without ever speaking of the spiritual. It is a different subject. If you can't do it, don't join in the conversation. Pretty simple. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
3/31/13 8:04 am
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| Re: Dear Eddie |
Cojak |
| MS7777 wrote: | you asked a question, "except for spiritual reason" ... Here's the problem with your question, you as a Christian cannot and should not be asking that question.
Have you ever read this:
Lev 18:21-30 NIV "'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. (22) "'Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
Btw I'm not being harsh to sinners, I try to love them into the kingdom but this discussion has gone way too far and needs to stop. IMO |
I agree with the statements of Lev. But we have a problem when we start pointing too much to the old Testament, as earlier in Lev. about all the offerings they were directed to give. The food they could not eat. One is Catfish, and a bunchy of us Christians eat Catfish. etc.
As I said I am not arguing for the gay life-style, that would be stupid of me as a Christian. But I worry about many directives and commands from the OT era.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24285
3/31/13 2:45 pm
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| Same Sex Marriage |
Steve Norris |
| I think there would be a tremendous effect. All companies that provide spousal benefits would have to either eliminate those benefits or cough up a lot more cash to provide them for same-sex spouses. If our spouses lose the benefits.... lots of money out of the working guy's pockets... If the companies cough the cash... they will make it up somewhere... and again... lots of money out of the working guy's pockets... |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 69
4/1/13 12:07 pm
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| Re: Same Sex Marriage |
W. Ray Williams |
| Steve Norris wrote: | | I think there would be a tremendous effect. All companies that provide spousal benefits would have to either eliminate those benefits or cough up a lot more cash to provide them for same-sex spouses. If our spouses lose the benefits.... lots of money out of the working guy's pockets... If the companies cough the cash... they will make it up somewhere... and again... lots of money out of the working guy's pockets... |
You are absolutely correct. It will cost more money and that money will be made up in higher costs to consumers and tax-payers.
Sadly, economics is not a reason to prevent the change. The court will not even consider an economic argument.
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Pax,
Ray |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
4/1/13 12:19 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| So is part of it is that some gays want to be stay-at-home 'wives'? I guess the times they really are a changin'. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
4/1/13 12:30 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | So is part of it is that some gays want to be stay-at-home 'wives'? I guess the times they really are a changin'. |
That may be. I think their argument is that that situation deserves equal treatment. Again, I am having a hard time trying to figure out why so many couples refuse to get get married because of the government benefits they will lose. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
4/2/13 7:15 am
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| no |
Ed Brewer |
Dialogue about an abomination legitimizes it's purported merit - the Church should model the appropriate response to such vile behavior and be ASHAMED to discuss it or to 'give place to the devil' (Eph 4:27).
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....from Barney Creek to Bountyland through every open door |
Friendly Face
Posts: 312
4/2/13 1:56 pm
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Ed Brewer |
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....from Barney Creek to Bountyland through every open door |
Friendly Face
Posts: 312
4/2/13 1:58 pm
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Wesley Duncan |
| There is absolutely no way to know how same sex, unions, marriages will effect us as individuals or us as a nation. A new set of laws will be written and they will not be kind to Christians. Eddie, I know you don't want this to become a spiritual dialogue. But Paul explained marriage between one man and one woman, coming together as one, as symbolic of Christ and His Church. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 490
4/5/13 6:11 pm
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