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 Re: Raf |
Ichthus77 |
| MS7777 wrote: |
... You don't thiink Parham didn't have critics do you?
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Parham was accused of being a sodomite and there was even a court case or something. Nothing was proved.
After Azusa street and before his death he was a part of the KKK and he also taught British Israelism and the movement he founded does not believe in eternal hell!
Heresy hunters beware of the evil fruits of Pentecostalism!
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Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1270
2/23/13 5:17 pm
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chainrattler |
| PastorJackson wrote: | I am not perfect never claimed to be but you need to pull that giant log out of your eyes before you need to worry about me. I am sick of people attacking moves of God from ivory towers judging yet never getting their hands the least dirty. If you discuss with me with respect I do the same, however when you talk down and make your accusations I will give it back to you.
You comment on the type of person I am, well I will make a deal from this point on, we put this behind us a clean slate. I ask you to forgive my exuberance and possibly reacting or overreacting and I will do the same. I expect you will since even with our disagreements we probably have more that we agree on. I can see that you truly are concerned and perhaps together we can answer your questions. |
I was taken aback a little by the exuberance of your response to me, and I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that I was showing restraint in the tenor of my comments and questions. But you are right, there is probably more we agree on.
Do you remember John Wesley Fletcher, the evangelist who became notorious for his involvement with Jim Bakker and Jessica Hahn? Were you ever in one of his services?
He held a revival one summer at the church where my family got saved. I was in between semesters in college and attended with my mother. He had a ministry in the word of knowledge and the gifts of healing that was advertised as uncanny. The ads in the newspaper for the meetings had his picture and a caption that said, "It has been reported that the dead have been raised in his meetings".
He had a group of all young males traveling with him as his musicians, and I'm sorry, they all looked as gay as could be. Later on, he was found out to be bisexual and an alcoholic. He got within ten feet of me in that meeting and you could see the red nose on his face (a sight I had seen on the faces of some of my relatives who were constant drinkers).
Yet during that meeting, he gave a word of knowledge to a close relative of mine concerning an auto accident and a settlement they would later receive in a lawsuit, as well as praying for them and they received healing (at least temporary healing from the pain).
This kind of thing raised common questions in Pentecost all my life. Had could God use so-and-so when.....(fill in the blank). And the answer was always the same, "God honors His Word and peoples' faith". And we were taught to accept that answer and keep believing. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 975
2/23/13 6:48 pm
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| I leave this thread with this parting thought |
MS7777 |
for all the naysayers, doubters, cynics and heresy hunters out there. Let us pursue righteousness, the Truth and His Presence with eyes and hearts and minds that are willing to say I don't understand all of this Lord, help me see you in this. I wrote these words about offense a few years ago but they still are true today:
God often offends our minds in order to reveal our hearts
He offends those who are bound by their traditions and expectations as well as their pre-conceived ideas of how he operates in his kingdom! He often offends by his methods – spitting and touching a man’s tongue (Mark 7:33), spitting on a man’s eyes (Mark 8:23), spitting into dirt and putting mud on a man’s eyes (John 9:6), handkerchiefs from Paul’s body (literally towels to wipe off the sweat (Acts 19:12), or even the manner of the outpouring of the holy ghost acts 2:1-9. Why tongues? The 120 seemed drunk to the onlookers and yet by offending people’s minds, he reveals the things in their hearts that are causing them to stumble over the truth. He is after all, a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense (Is. 8:14). What was the reason Namaan had to dip 7 times in the nasty Jordan? (2 Kings 5:1-15) To expose his heart.
What is really being revealed in an offended heart is most often, a lack of hunger for God and a lack of humility. The self-satisfied, know-it-all, complacency of many so-called Christians is really a cover-up for their lack of desire for more of god. Many have reduced god to an impotent, unconcerned force for good rather than an involved, super-natural, caring and in control almighty God! Real Pentecostal Christianity is alive and breathing and filled with anticipation and expectation of what god will do or wants to do in our lives daily. Real new testament Christianity is about a supernatural relationship with the God of all creation not about formulas and dried up ritual. God is mysterious and he moves in mysterious and sometimes offensive (to us) ways. Ways that are without tracing, ways higher than our ways. His plans are beyond our comprehension and yet he does not move in chaos but in an order, his order. We mistake his order and his ways and his plans sometimes as confusion and call our confusion offense and chaos and therefore miss God because god would surely not move like that! We should not be trying to tie up god into some neat little doctrine that fits our understanding of him and does not offend our sensibilities or our friends. Our hunger for more, our desire to draw closer to him, to have a greater relationship with him than we had yesterday should overwhelm us and drive us. We may never understand all that he is doing or why he did it that way or why he didn’t do it another way, but that is perfectly okay. We will never have all the answers this side of heaven, so why be offended? If we want to receive all he has for us then let us immediately be willing to dip 7 times in His river if that is what He has said. And if we don’t know what will bring us the blessing, let us wait in His presence and be open to His voice until we know His will. Let us not limit god by our offense and lack of faith. Let us say to the lord, come Holy Spirit, more of you lord and less of me. Or even, more Lord, no matter what that may mean! Whatever it takes, let us be humble and hungry of heart and change these stumbling blocks into stepping stones that we make a path that leads us in His way, His will and His purpose for our lives!
Let the Revival Come! I can't prove it but I want it. Actually, I just want more of Jesus and I want His Presence to fill me, my people, my city, my state, my nation and His World. Come Holy Spiriit.
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Acts 1:8 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 725
2/23/13 8:23 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
In my view, the Pentecostal movement, wherever it has retained the fire of the Holy Spirit, as a whole has been a steadily increasing fulfillment of the promise that God would pour out His Spirit upon all flesh in the last days. Since I'm not a Calvinist, I don't see any scriptural promise of an "overwhelming" last days outpouring, in which God just "takes over" and unilaterally causes a great revival to occur without regard to human response to the call of the Spirit, so I must say Rafael's use of such terms to describe the last days outpouring doesn't ring true to what I see as the scriptural promise and principles of revival.
God's plan is to indeed pour out His Spirit upon all flesh, but this promise, like all God's covenant promises, is always conditioned upon human response. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
2/23/13 9:03 pm
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| qw..my last post on this .. |
Rafael D Martinez |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | so I must say Rafael's use of such terms to describe the last days outpouring doesn't ring true to what I see as the scriptural promise and principles of revival.
God's plan is to indeed pour out His Spirit upon all flesh, but this promise, like all God's covenant promises, is always conditioned upon human response. |
Quiet, I've tried to make my usage of this terminology as clear as I can. In my last post upon which had links to videos I posted last year, I hoped that would explain it.
In my first post on this thread, I stated that the passages in Joel 2 could be used to be described God's outpoured Spirit on all flesh in the latter days. I also said that the plain context of the Scripture also clearly was intended to convey a clear message from God through Joel to an audience in Israel's shattered nation somewhere as well.
To me, the term "End Time Revival" has historically been a loaded one, not one you find actually used at all in Scripture, and a description created largely out of 19th and 20th Christian evangelical piety. Revivalism in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles has reshaped what it means in terms of the kind of thing you've described, which I find no Scriptural basis for.
However, as I have said previously, outpourings and spiritual renewals that involve genuine visitations of the Spirit of God in individuals and among numbers of people is indeed a Biblical reality for which I have nothing but thanks to God for. It is these that I think LC and Pastor Jackson vociferously if not a bit too ferociously have made a case for in the context of the Brownsville revival, seeming to think that the criticisms of revival excesses are entirely driven by jealousy, judgmentalism, or as MS has implied "heresy hunters" (assessments I strongly disagree with, although I'm not so jaded as to not see these things behind some of it all).
I have no problem with a sound visitation of God's Spirit that we might call "revival" among us. I've made that clear. I have a real problem with thinking that these things indicate the Next New Thing, that the Boanerges Glory or the Stinking Creek Outpouring is THE start of THE REVIVAL that will sweep billions into heaven. We tongue talkers need our stimulation and we love to market and pilgrimage like any other religious group, so our lonely eyes turn to the revival heroes who remind us how special we are to live in a day when the Tide will turn if we only spread word of the Meetings.
The Bible says very, very differently.
Now, Quiet, I just don't know how to be any clearer on that. I'm engaging this now in seeking to discuss the question raised by the original. And I think I've said all I'm going to about it on this thread.
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Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16
These are trying times. Everyone's trying something and getting caught. The Church Lady, 1987 |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7766
2/25/13 7:46 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
I was just responding to your statement that the last days outpouring would be an "overwhelming" move that would "sweep" massive numbers into the kingdom. I don't find any evidence anywhere in Scripture that God has ever worked in that way, in the Book of Acts or at any time since. Revival has always been conditioned upon man's response to the call of God to repent.
I agree with you that such a unilateral, 'sovereign' move of God ain't gonna happen, because it never has and never will be the case that God just forces people to repent and be filled with His power.
Not trying to nitpick, just pointing out what to me is a very important distinction regarding the scriptural promise of God pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh in the last days.
Be blessed! |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
2/25/13 9:30 am
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| PS |
MS7777 |
I appreciate everyone's input on this topic. While I knew there is little scriptural basis for what we modern day Pentecostals might term an "End Time Revival", I still think in light of Joel's prophecy regarding the last days outpouring, in light of the fact that some of his prophecy has not yet occurred (moon to blood etc) ergo we are still in the last days and can expect the former and latter rain together. IMO
On my way to a sensitive country in Africa to preach crusades and pastoral training. Expecting a major revival  God always shows up in love POWER and Grace with signs following and am expecting thousands of souls in the Harvest.
Many blessings to all on Acts (my favorite book).
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Acts 1:8 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 725
2/25/13 12:14 pm
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