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Randy Johnson |
bradfreeman wrote: | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | We are in fact under the Law of Christ, as Paul himself says, so it is not the case that we have no law at all just because we are not under the Law of Moses. |
We are not, in fact, under the Law of Moses, the law of sin and death that was given to increase sin, empower sin, shut every mouth, condemn, kill and declare everyone guilty and unrighteous.
We are in fact under the law of the Spirit of life, the perfect law that gives freedom...the law of Christ written on our hearts and minds by the Spirit. |
You realize, of course, that you both just said the same thing here. _________________ Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 2/5/13 5:31 pm
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Randy Johnson |
Brad, would you and Wyatt agree that grace does not give us a license to deliberately sin? _________________ Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 2/5/13 5:32 pm
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bradfreeman |
Randy Johnson wrote: | bradfreeman wrote: | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | We are in fact under the Law of Christ, as Paul himself says, so it is not the case that we have no law at all just because we are not under the Law of Moses. |
We are not, in fact, under the Law of Moses, the law of sin and death that was given to increase sin, empower sin, shut every mouth, condemn, kill and declare everyone guilty and unrighteous.
We are in fact under the law of the Spirit of life, the perfect law that gives freedom...the law of Christ written on our hearts and minds by the Spirit. |
You realize, of course, that you both just said the same thing here. |
I want to make it clear that I believe the Law of Christ does not bring condemnation, increase sin, bring the imputation of sin as did the old Law.
Rom. 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. _________________ I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 2/5/13 5:34 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Randy, I wouldn't think there could be any question that I definitely do not believe grace is ever a license to even sin once (Rom. 6:15).
Brad, however, has been quite clear in expressing his views in this thread and others, that God will not impute (reckon/consider/account) present, ongoing sin to anyone who has been justified by faith, and that one's spirit stays holy when one's body sins. How this does not equal a license to sin with impunity is not evident. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 2/5/13 7:06 pm
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bradfreeman |
Randy Johnson wrote: | Brad, would you and Wyatt agree that grace does not give us a license to deliberately sin? |
I don't understand QW's motivation to impugn me or God's goodness and mercy and grace. The leaven of works-based righteousness is insidious and ultimately severs us from Christ, brings a curse and causes us to fall from grace.
The fact that Christ's atoning work has taken away the sin of the world and made believers perfect forever is good news. QW's insistent desire to hold the fear of failure over the head of believers is bad news.
If we could do it right, Christ would not have had to come. Our salvation is the result of His work, His goodness and His obedience. All we do is believe!
Of course grace is not a license to sin. We are dead to sin.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then ? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase ? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death ? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin ; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again ; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all ; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
God's grace and strength are sufficient for our weakness and no temptation is too much to resist. God gives us victory!
But when we fail, He is merciful and does not remember or impute sin to the believer.
Grace is the power to win! Grace is God saying "I believe in you!" How could that possibly inspire sin? _________________ I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 2/5/13 11:29 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
I absolutely affirm that salvation is by grace through faith, not something that can ever be earned by one's own works of righteousness.
I have endeavored to accurately represent Brad's view in his own words in my previous post, while of course offering my take on his views, which is what discussion is supposed to be.
Again, how the views Brad espouses are not a clear and complete license to sin with total impunity is not clear.
Brad says my view impugns him and God's goodness and grace, but that simply assumes that his views of God's goodness and grace are scripturally correct, which is simply to beg the question. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 2/5/13 11:49 pm
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Poimen |
bradfreeman wrote: | bonnie knox wrote: | All that doesn't mean that my body is not part of the real me. |
Certainly we have a close relationship with our "earthly tent". But if it is the real you or part of it, then you'll be leaving part of the real you behind in the resurrection - the weak, dishonorable and corruptible part. |
Actually, we'll just have it changed into the glorified, immortal, incorruptible state. It will be the same body though. _________________ Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5657 2/6/13 12:00 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
I also always endeavor to be as scripturally accurate as possible. My responses to Brad's postings are motivated by a sincere desire to correct, from Scripture, what I see as the false, antinomian doctrines you constantly teach, Brad. Since you post so prolifically and provocatively in a forum devoted to discussion, you really should not be upset when someone engages and even disputes your doctrine. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 2/6/13 12:00 am
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bradfreeman |
Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Note the original context Paul is quoting from in Romans 4:8; that of Psalm 32:
How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit! When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah. I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord "; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah. (Psalms 32:1-5 NASB)
We can be certain that one so well-versed in Scripture as Paul would not quote from this wonderful passage of Scripture in a way that was inconsistent with its original meaning. |
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works : 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
Paul's audience was primarily Gentiles. He would not have assumed knowledge of Hebrew scriptures his quote may have originated in.
Romans 1:13 I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far ) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles. 14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.
He said what he meant about this new covenant blessedness. We are the blessed! _________________ I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Last edited by bradfreeman on 2/6/13 12:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 2/6/13 12:14 am
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bradfreeman |
Poimen wrote: | Actually, we'll just have it changed into the glorified, immortal, incorruptible state. It will be the same body though. |
I can't really disagree with this. Jesus retained his scars. _________________ I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 2/6/13 12:15 am
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Randy Johnson |
Poimen wrote: | bradfreeman wrote: | bonnie knox wrote: | All that doesn't mean that my body is not part of the real me. |
Certainly we have a close relationship with our "earthly tent". But if it is the real you or part of it, then you'll be leaving part of the real you behind in the resurrection - the weak, dishonorable and corruptible part. |
Actually, we'll just have it changed into the glorified, immortal, incorruptible state. It will be the same body though. |
Are you sure about that, Poimen?
It seems in 1 Corinthians 15, in the analogy of the seed vs. the fully matured fruit, that the seed and the fruit look totally different. I'm not sure they are identical. _________________ Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 2/6/13 12:16 am
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Randy Johnson |
Gentlemen, what does it mean to be in Christ?
The reason I ask is because it seems to me that everything we are talking about having in the New Covenant is found in the Person of Jesus Christ, and none of it is resident in we ourselves as a source.
Just as we were all represented in Adam before any of us were ever born, and as Levi was reckoned to be in Abraham when he tithed to Melchizedek, in the New Covenant we are represented in Jesus Christ as the Second Adam. None of us have actually obtained everything that has been promised, instead we wait for it in hope and put our trust in the Lord Jesus Christ to bring us to it, and to bring it to us. Would you agree with this?
Consider these verses:
5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait expectantly for the hope of righteousness. Galatians 5:5 NET Bible.
27 And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment, 28 so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28 NET Bible.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 that is, into an inheritance imperishable, undefiled, and unfading. It is reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:3-5 NET Bible
These verses tell me that we haven't received everything God has for us in regards to our salvation, yet. Some of it is still to come when Jesus returns, and our job right now is to maintain faith in Jesus and live a life with our minds controlled by the Holy Spirit. _________________ Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 2/6/13 12:32 am
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Great point Randy. |
Poimen |
I too think how one understands our "position" in Christ has an effect on our application and interpretation of a great many things Scripture speaks of as ours "in Christ".
I also agree with your assessment that not everything we have in Christ we have experientially just yet. Some we can receive now, some we grow into, some we will not personally experience till He bodily returns for us.
Nevertheless, it is ours "in Him." So let us abide in Him then, lest we find ourselves unbelieving, unfruitful, and severed from the life in Christ. _________________ Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay."
Last edited by Poimen on 2/6/13 4:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5657 2/6/13 3:38 am
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A conglomeration of thoughts early in the morning |
Poimen |
bradfreeman wrote: | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Note the original context Paul is quoting from in Romans 4:8; that of Psalm 32:
How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit! When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah. I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord "; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah. (Psalms 32:1-5 NASB)
We can be certain that one so well-versed in Scripture as Paul would not quote from this wonderful passage of Scripture in a way that was inconsistent with its original meaning. |
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works : 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
Paul's audience was primarily Gentiles. He would not have assumed knowledge of Hebrew scriptures his quote may have originated in.
Romans 1:13 I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far ) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles. 14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.
He said what he meant about this new covenant blessedness. We are the blessed! |
Brad,
I think one of the biggest issues I personally have with your presentation is the fact that, regardless of intent, it lends itself to an antinomian, lackadaisical "Christianity". A "Christianity" that I would say is no Christianity at all.
Now, when you speak of sin not being imputed, you seem to speak of it as a "once for all" experience in the life and practice of the believer. I agree that Christ's sacrifice, which provides the means and grounds for forgiveness and deliverance from sin, is once for all. However, I submit our relationship thereto is ongoing, as we by faith walk in and appropriate that which Christ has provided.
I believe that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for the forgiveness of all sin, and has potentially (for lack of a better term) satisfied the holiness of God. Albeit, I confess that the forgiveness of sins as an experience is only effectual and received in real time, upon faith, and in accordance with our abiding in Him, walking in the light, growing in grace, etc. So that while Christ has provided forgiveness for all sin (past, present, future) the actual reception thereof happens in real time and is conditional upon our receiving and cooperating with the rule and enabling power of grace in our hearts and lives as believers.
That said, there is an apparent flaw (IMO) with your view that any sin committed after coming to faith in Christ, even deliberate and persistent sin, is NOT imputed to us. I submit that anyone who can deliberately and persistently sin without repenting has, of consequence, abandoned their faith in Christ. Such are therefore no longer "in Him", their own works testifying to the deadness of their faith, and their implicit denial of Him. Nevertheless, if your view is correct, and our sins (even deliberate or persistent ones) are NOT imputed to us as believers regardless, then your own view contradicts itself. One could not possibly lose faith in Christ, for such loss is itself a sin, and no sin can be imputed to them. This naturally leads to an affirmation of unconditional eternal security, and apostasy as simply not possible. Else sin (the sin of unbelief, of denying Jesus, of apostasy) is in fact laid to one's account after coming to saving faith in Christ.
Furthermore, we have all admitted that sin has consequences (to one degree or another), even for those who have come to faith in Christ. Indeed, God chastens us for our sins that we might be partakers of His holiness, as has been cited here already. However, if that is true (and we know that it is), then their is a measure of imputation involved. Our sins are indeed laid to our account, at least in so far as they merit the correction of the Lord. Now, if their was indeed no imputation, no laying to one's account, or holding one responsible for their sins, then God has no just basis upon which to chastise us when we err, even if done deliberately or persistently.
Lastly, if there is no condemnation (in the sense you have explained it) for yet future sins merely by our coming to and being "in Christ", regardless of the sins committed in the body, then we have undone that Scriptural declaration that says we shall all give account befopre the judgment seat of Christ for the deeds done in our bodies. Any level of condemnation, be it loss of works and rewards, temporal judgments, or eternal damnation contradicts the idea of "no condemnation whatsoever" as you have presented it. Again, such a position naturally leads to unconditional eternal security, and despite giving lip service to the righteousness and holiness God expects of believers, allows those living unrighteous and ungodly lives a false sense of security. And a faith that does not compel Christ-likeness as anything more than a good idea. Certainly not a necessity, effectively denying and thwarting His Lordship in their lives. And as you well know only those who have (in truth, by the Spirit) confessed Jesus is Lord, and have believed with the heart God has raised Him, are the saved. Indeed, "Jesus is either both Lord and Savior or He is neither", as the old summation aptly puts is. There simply is no such thing as a born again believer in Jesus as their Savior who is not also a devoted follower of Him as their Lord.
Indeed, I submit that the KJV is much better here (IMO), with it's qualifying statement that, "there is therefore NOW no condemnation to them which ARE in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT after the flesh, but AFTER the Spirit." That is the natural result and condition of those who abide in Him -- walking in the Spirit, in the light, growing in grace and the knowledge of the Lord.
Those "in Him" are the same who "abide in Him", and there is no difference between them.
Remain in Him dear one,s and he will remain in you (and I). _________________ Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5657 2/6/13 4:09 am
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Re: A conglomeration of thoughts early in the morning |
bradfreeman |
Poimen wrote: | That said, there is an apparent flaw (IMO) with your view that any sin committed after coming to faith in Christ, even deliberate and persistent sin, is NOT imputed to us. I submit that anyone who can deliberately and persistently sin without repenting has, of consequence, abandoned their faith in Christ. Such are therefore no longer "in Him", their own works testifying to the deadness of their faith, and their implicit denial of Him. Nevertheless, if your view is correct, and our sins (even deliberate or persistent ones) are NOT imputed to us as believers regardless, then your own view contradicts itself. One could not possibly lose faith in Christ, for such loss is itself a sin, and no sin can be imputed to them. This naturally leads to an affirmation of unconditional eternal security, and apostasy as simply not possible. Else sin (the sin of unbelief, of denying Jesus, of apostasy) is in fact laid to one's account after coming to saving faith in Christ. |
The departure from faith in Christ and the return to faith in ourselves through attempts to earn righteousness, blessing, miracles or the Spirit by works or law-keeping will cause us to "fall from grace", be "severed from Christ" and come out of blessing into a "curse".
Quote: | Furthermore, we have all admitted that sin has consequences (to one degree or another), even for those who have come to faith in Christ. Indeed, God chastens us for our sins that we might be partakers of His holiness, as has been cited here already. However, if that is true (and we know that it is), then their is a measure of imputation involved. Our sins are indeed laid to our account, at least in so far as they merit the correction of the Lord. Now, if their was indeed no imputation, no laying to one's account, or holding one responsible for their sins, then God has no just basis upon which to chastise us when we err, even if done deliberately or persistently. |
There is a huge difference between being judged or condemned or punished for sin and being led or corrected or taught by the Holy Spirit. Also, what happens to our weak, dishonorable, corruptible flesh is the result of sin working in it...it is unredeemed as of yet. Our outer man perishes.
The real you does not sin and cannot sin. How can you when you are "as He is...in this world", in Him, are "one spirit with Him" and "all things are lawful for me" (4 times in 1 Cor. 6:12 and 10;23). In Him is no sin. How can we sin? We are dead to sin.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then ? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase ? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death ? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin ; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
Sin is a noun here. We are dead to the noun so that we have power to stop the verb in our "body of sin". We are freed from the law. We are freed from sin. We are freed from the death and condemnation that flows from them.
Truly, truly, believers will not come into judgment but have passed from death to life.
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
Those who are in Christ are growing in our desire to bring about His kingdom and will in the earth as our minds are renewed. This is a process of change and correction...not condemnation or punishment.
Quote: | Lastly, if there is no condemnation (in the sense you have explained it) for yet future sins merely by our coming to and being "in Christ", regardless of the sins committed in the body, then we have undone that Scriptural declaration that says we shall all give account befopre the judgment seat of Christ for the deeds done in our bodies. Any level of condemnation, be it loss of works and rewards, temporal judgments, or eternal damnation contradicts the idea of "no condemnation whatsoever" as you have presented it. Again, such a position naturally leads to unconditional eternal security, and despite giving lip service to the righteousness and holiness God expects of believers, allows those living unrighteous and ungodly lives a false sense of security. And a faith that does not compel Christ-likeness as anything more than a good idea. Certainly not a necessity, effectively denying and thwarting His Lordship in their lives. And as you well know only those who have (in truth, by the Spirit) confessed Jesus is Lord, and have believed with the heart God has raised Him, are the saved. Indeed, "Jesus is either both Lord and Savior or He is neither", as the old summation aptly puts is. There simply is no such thing as a born again believer in Jesus as their Savior who is not also a devoted follower of Him as their Lord. |
There are not levels of condemnation. A death sentence is a death sentence and we are not under the death sentence any more. There are levels of correction in this life. But there is no condemnation at all to those who are in Christ...we have "peace with God". Romans 5:1
There simply is no scripture that indicates that believers will be punished at the judgment seat of Christ - the one who said we would not come into judgment (condemnation). Our works will be tested and survive or be destroyed. We will be "saved" and, rewarded. 1 Cor. 3.
Quote: | Indeed, I submit that the KJV is much better here (IMO), with it's qualifying statement that, "there is therefore NOW no condemnation to them which ARE in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT after the flesh, but AFTER the Spirit." That is the natural result and condition of those who abide in Him -- walking in the Spirit, in the light, growing in grace and the knowledge of the Lord. |
We both know that the most accurate translations confirm that the qualifying phrase, "who walk not after the flesh" is not in the most reliable manuscripts and omit it.
Even if you choose to leave it in, the key to understanding Romans 8 is in the following passage:
Romans 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
In Christ, we are "not in the flesh" even though our bodies are "dead because of sin". Even though our bodies sin, we are "in the Spirit". As Paul said in Romans 7, when my flesh sins, it's not me doing it. My spirit is alive because of righteousness!
As the initial passage for this thread indicated, Paul said when he sinned he is not the one sinning, but sin working in his flesh.
Romans 7:16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh ; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Ours is a walk of faith, from start to finish. Jesus is the starter and finisher of our faith. God credits the ungodly, like He did Abraham, with righteousness by faith.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, _________________ I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 2/6/13 7:50 am
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Daniel Rushing |
Randy Johnson wrote: | Daniel Rushing wrote: | Randy Johnson wrote: | Daniel Rushing wrote: | All of those verses are irrelevant because I understand his use of the word "righteousness" differently than you. I also reject any gnostic reading of Paul and I think Paul had a different agenda for his writing than you do. I have explained this at length to you more than once. |
The Word of God is never irrelevant. |
Did I say that it was? |
Uh, yes, those were your exact words, in fact. |
No I did not. I said the verses he poste were irrelevant to argument at hand. And yes, sometimes verses are irrlelevant to an argument. I would use the story of Esther to discuss the Sermon on the Mount. It is irrelevant.
Please, spare us all the sensationalism and stop attempting to paint some portrait of me that denies the relevancy of all scripture to life and practice. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3063 2/6/13 9:57 am
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diakoneo |
Brad,
How can you rationalize this statement: Quote: | The real you does not sin and cannot sin. How can you when you are "as He is...in this world", in Him, are "one spirit with Him" and "all things are lawful for me" (4 times in 1 Cor. 6:12 and 10;23). In Him is no sin. How can we sin? We are dead to sin. |
With what 1 John says:
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 1:8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
It seems John is fighting against the exact teaching you are espousing. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3382 2/6/13 9:59 am
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Daniel Rushing |
bradfreeman wrote: | Poimen wrote: | Actually, we'll just have it changed into the glorified, immortal, incorruptible state. It will be the same body though. |
I can't really disagree with this. Jesus retained his scars. |
DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3063 2/6/13 9:59 am
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Re: A conglomeration of thoughts early in the morning |
Poimen |
bradfreeman wrote: |
The real you does not sin and cannot sin. How can you when you are "as He is...in this world", in Him, are "one spirit with Him" and "all things are lawful for me" (4 times in 1 Cor. 6:12 and 10;23). In Him is no sin. How can we sin? We are dead to sin. |
If we are really like Him then our bodies will not be sinning either.
Otherwise we are NOT like Him.
Quote: | We both know that the most accurate translations confirm that the qualifying phrase, "who walk not after the flesh" is not in the most reliable manuscripts and omit it. |
I know no such thing. I accept it for what it says, those who are in Christ are those who are (actively, presently) not walking after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Quote: | Even if you choose to leave it in, the key to understanding Romans 8 is in the following passage:
Romans 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
In Christ, we are "not in the flesh" even though our bodies are "dead because of sin". Even though our bodies sin, we are "in the Spirit". As Paul said in Romans 7, when my flesh sins, it's not me doing it. My spirit is alive because of righteousness! |
I was with you until those last three sentences.
My body is dead (that is it is mortal, and will die) because of sin, but I am (spiritually) alive and born (again) of the Spirit (of the last Adam). So that even though I am in a weak, mortal, vile body, grace and righteousness reign IN me,and THROUGH my members, so that I am really free from the power and practice of sin.
Therefore I do not deliberately or persistently yield my members to sin. If I do, failing to repent, I then become enslaved to those whom I yield my members to obey, and fall again under the mastery of sin. Yet rather, by living and walking in the Spirit, I (ongoingly) yield to the Lordship of Christ (hence the process, a point we agree on in general).
Otherwise, except I repent and return to a life lived and walked in the Spirit, I no longer remain in Christ. After all, those who walk after the flesh are not in Christ (the reverse truth of those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, are in Christ), nor abiding in Him.
Quote: | As the initial passage for this thread indicated, Paul said when he sinned he is not the one sinning, but sin working in his flesh. |
We disagree as to the spiritual condition of the role Paul here places himself in. I, like others have stated, believe he speaks of the uncoverted and/or unforgiven state (be it pre or post conversion, it is applicable just the same), the condition of being "without Christ". Simply put he is saying that those who sin serve sin, or are slaves to sin. They are sinning, that is not being denied. Rather, in doing so they have relinquished dominion to sin, so that it is no longer (just) them sinning, but sin has become their master.
Likewise, when a believer falls into unrepentant, deliberate, or persistent sin he effectively renounces Christ and His ruler-ship. No longer do they reign in life, grace ruling unto righteousness (and that is righteous living) in and through them. Instead they have yielded themselves and their members unto sin, and in so doing are in sin, in the flesh, and no longer in Christ. _________________ Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay."
Last edited by Poimen on 2/6/13 11:25 am; edited 2 times in total |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5657 2/6/13 10:43 am
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bradfreeman |
diakoneo wrote: | Brad,
How can you rationalize this statement: Quote: | The real you does not sin and cannot sin. How can you when you are "as He is...in this world", in Him, are "one spirit with Him" and "all things are lawful for me" (4 times in 1 Cor. 6:12 and 10;23). In Him is no sin. How can we sin? We are dead to sin. |
With what 1 John says:
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 1:8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
It seems John is fighting against the exact teaching you are espousing. |
Thanks for asking.
To reconcile John's statements, you have to understand the truth that we are 3 parts - spirit, soul and body. Otherwise, John's teaching makes no sense. He says in one breath "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves" and that he is writing to them so they won't sin (1 Jn. 2:1) but if they do they have an advocate with the father and then says "whatever is born of God cannot sin" in the next (1 Jn. 3:9).
Part of us has sin, sins and is still unredeemed, weak, dishonorable and corruptible - the flesh. It wars against the Spirit, lusts and needs discipline.
Part of us is born of God and cannot sin- the spirit. It is totally of God (2 Cor. 5:1, created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph. 4:20), one with Christ (1 Cor. 6:17) and cannot sin (1 John 3:9).
We have sin in our members. God's desires, and ours as Christians, is to renew our minds and rid our lives of sinful behavior.
So as for 1 John 1:8,9, I have sinned. I do the things I don't want to do at times...it's sin in my members, the lust of the flesh carried out. Paul says he sins, but it's not him that does it but sin working in his flesh. _________________ I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 2/6/13 10:52 am
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