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 Commentary: Kevin Wallace- Who will we be? |
doyle |
Several posts down in the discussion on what some feel is an increased liberal slant at Lee University, gave excellent perspective. We've brought this one by Kevin Wallace here for further discussion.
Commentary by Kevin Wallace:
I shouldn't but I will. This (discussion) has opened pandoras box. Why? Because in our movement there is still an unaddressed elephant in the room that surfaces when we touch these issues.
I believe we are still very much in a transitional place in our movement. The issue is who we will be when we emerge from this time of transition. The reality of this transition has touched every area of our movement from practical commitments, dress, music, methodologies and so on. For many of these transitions I am grateful. Grateful that I don't have to explain extreme legalism and personal pandering to my children one day. I'm grateful that we have become more able to accept diversity and embrace change.
One area that has withstood this press for transition and change is the area of our theological presuppositions. For that I am thankful. I stood in the Pulpit of the church that Charles Finney founded in New York. Today it is led by homosexual leadership and laced with evidence of a backslidden church that has lost its fear of God and ability to rightly divide the Word of God. We are naive and ignorant to think that we, the COG, are above and beyond this type of slide.
Concerning Lee... I enjoyed my brief 2 year stint there. I am on the 14 year plan to which I am approaching the finished line. My wife graduated from Lee Summa Cum Laude... I will graduate thank you Laude.
Lee changed its agenda when it changed its identity... You don't become a "liberal arts" university and maintain the same strict and rigorous ideologies that accompany a "Bible school" or something of that sort.
Lee is a flagship, state of the art, second to none liberal arts university... We need to accept that. I have. As anointed and holy a man of God, Dr. Ricky Moore is, he and his entire religion department face a tremendous task in the coming years to remain "pentecostal". I pastor kids coming out of and going through Lee. They are sharp, well rounded and well prepared for there field of specialty. However, some of them have told me out of their mouths they haven't had a lecture or sermon being baptized in the Holy Spirit. I didn't say all of them. I said some of them. And I didn't say they haven't heard about the Holy Spirit. I said they haven't been readily acquainted with the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
This is why I think we needed both/and. We need a great flagship school like Lee, that attracts the brightest minds from all over the world...but I also think we need small, intimate Bible school labs, that while providing rigorous educational processes also provide lab like arenas that develop and shape the prophetic voices that often feel out of place and misfitted in our flagship university. Perhaps that can be achieved within the current structure at Lee. I don't know. But I do think it is safe to say without making the Spirit filled, pentecostal experience part of our doctrine and Lee experience then we shouldn't expect that doctrine or experience to be evident in our churches as the guard changes. Travis I do think some professors need a little fear of God in them as they teach. I applaud Dr. Conn for sending some more "liberal" minds to other places of employment. And for those who "rebuked" David Smith, this is not about not having room at the table for other minds or ways of thinking...this is about the COG claiming its seat at that table and not giving over or in to the other philosophies of theological thought.
Lee is a school we should be proud of. It is also a school we should pray for. If it ever needed a revival it is now. Our times demand it and their futures mandate it.
ps someone may say, well you went to Lee so your point is not well taken. I would reply that I left Lee after 2 years to pursue the call of God in another way. I don't recommend it for anyone else. Unless they know they are in disobedience to God if they stay. My advice is 99.999% of the time to finish Lee.
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The largest room in the world is the room for improvement. |
Acts-celerate Owner
Posts: 6957
12/20/12 12:32 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| Quote: | | This is why I think we needed both/and. We need a great flagship school like Lee, that attracts the brightest minds from all over the world...but I also think we need small, intimate Bible school labs, that while providing rigorous educational processes also provide lab like arenas that develop and shape the prophetic voices that often feel out of place and misfitted in our flagship university. |
I did not get my ministry training from Lee. And, I didn't get it from the seminary. I got ministry formation primarily from:
-the church I grew up in.
-North Cleveland COG
-coaching from theologically sound, mission focused pastors that I engaged or who engaged me once I was doing ministry.
What I did get at Lee and the Seminary was theological footing, a push to think critically, and mentors who were invested in my person.
To place the responsibility for pastoral training on educators who are generally not pastors is unwise. Let them do their jobs.
Then, we need to dial in individually and denominationally to understand that what our responsibility is to the people we are credentialing.
There is a place for a Bible College, a Christian Liberal Arts College, a Seminary.
But, there is even more importantly a place for a local church to do what a local church is designed by the Lord to do: to make disciples, to equip the saints for works of service.
Pauls raise up Timothys. Pauls tell Timothys to do the work of an evangelist. Pauls don't outsource the development of Timothys to institutions, though institutions have a vital role in our formation.
I went to school (both Lee and the Seminary) with far too many people who slept through Sunday Morning Worship Services, who were uninvolved in local churches for the sake of ministry, and who claimed to be preparing for ministry.
Their idea was that ministry preparation happened when you get a piece of paper. I'm all for education. I believe in it. I'm a reader. I love to write. I'm a critical thinker. I have a pretty decent IQ. I've been accepted into some good schools. Testing is easy for me. But, no one cares if you do not have a handle on good ministry practice, ministry, business, and personal leadership practice, and just a good pastoral, evangelistic heart.
You learn good things in school. But, time in ministry contexts as a learner, a practitioner....just a Christian cannot be replaced by any institution or once-size-fits-all program of any sort.[/quote] |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
12/20/12 2:23 pm
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| Interesting |
KevinWallace |
Without sounding squarely confrontational it seems that you are suggesting that educators aren't responsible for shaping the ministerial product graduating from Lee; while simultaneously indicating that mentors have nothing to do with educational process. I don't think that is what you're saying. It just seems that way.
By saying interesting I mean that your perspective caused me to think from a different angle.
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Once I thought was wrong, but...I was mistaken
Last edited by KevinWallace on 12/20/12 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 441
12/20/12 3:15 pm
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J David Smith |
This board proves that diverse perspective and critical thinking can be beneficial. For instance, I have a tremendous amount of respect for both Kevin Wallace and Travis Johnson. I have known Kevin since he was a teenager, and I have watched Travis from a distance since he was on staff at North Cleveland. I have had productive dialogue with both of them through the years. They are both young men who represent the future of the Church of God.
My style, ideology and views probably line up closer to Kevin than Travis. However, Kevin and I recently had opposing views on an agenda item at the last General Assembly. We even discussed it in length on this site. However, I consider him to be an incredible man of God. Travis and I had a slight difference of opinion in the thread that I began on the impact of liberal ideology within Lee and PTS. However, I know without a doubt that Travis is a destined leader within our movement.
I said all of that to say...I pray that the future of our movement has room at the table for diverse styles of ministry and that we welcome that diversity. We need the various voices at the table. However, at the head of that table must be Wesleyan Holiness, Pentecostal worldview that has room for various stylistic contributions, but is unified and solidified in the absolutes that have made us who we are. It doesn't matter to me if you preach wearing Buckle jeans or a JC Penney suit. What does matter to me is that we maintain the distinctiveness of a Pentecostal movement. After all, our denomination is the patriarch of the greatest Spiritual renewal of the last 100 years! As the old saying says, "Dance with the one that brung you!"
My post about the influence of liberal ideology within our educational institutions was not a vague criticism for the sake of stirring up controversy. It is a cry for those who love this Church to stand up and defend the message of Pentecost! I love Lee and PTS. In whole, they are two of the greatest institutions in the country. I just want to remind every Church of God member that as long as millions of dollars in support continues to come to those institutions from the General Assembly of the Church of God, we have a vested interest and influence on what is being taught at those institutions. At this point, there is far more positive than negative at both institutions. However, it is our responsibility and right to demand accountability in the ideology being taught at both of these institutions, as well as at every other Church of God funded institution of higher learning. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 486
12/20/12 3:20 pm
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| Re: Interesting |
Travis Johnson |
| KevinWallace wrote: | Without sounding squarely confrontational it seems that you are suggesting that educators aren't responsible for shaping the ministerial product graduating from Lee; while simultaneously indicating that mentors have nothing to do with educational process. I don't think that is what you're saying. It just seems that way.
By saying interesting I mean that your perspective caused me to think from a different angle. |
Kev and David,
First, I feel like this thread has really good potential. And, David, I feel the same kind of affinity for you.
To Kevin's question: I absolutely believe that education shapes the ministerial product (or the person). But, i didn't learn how to preach at Lee or the Seminary. I learned how to preach at a nursing home in Chattanooga where I preached every Sunday afternoon with old Roy Crane. That's also where I learned to be human and not a healer as I ministered too people. I learned that ministry is about weeping with people as they forget who ey are...or as others forget that they exists.
I think it's also worth mentioning that I didn't do a Bible and Theology degree at Lee. I got a Communications/PR degree for the purpose of being employable while church planting. I did take 30+ hours of Bible/Christian Ministry classes. One class was a Christian Education class where I assimilated a file folder full of ministry ideas and curriculum. I turned it in and never used it again.
That's the challenge of 4-year educational facilities. The practical ministry that is being taught and even equipment purchased is generally behind schedule and outdated. Where are ministry practices and systems effective? In the field, where it must be effective...or else it dies.
Am I saying academics are a waste? Absolutely not.
The intellectual formation, the ability to think through concepts critically, the learning of what previous thinkers thoughts, previous historical practices that worked and failed, the schisms, and heresies, the systematic theology, the thought behind a discipline is how formal institutional academics is what really benefit us
So, if we expect academia to do the work of the local church, we'll find it deficient. What I'm saying is that the local church is so uniquely positioned and tasked by The Lord Jesus. And, academia, however we go about is also uniquely positioned.
That's how Lee University occupies a ridiculously treasured place in my life and Kelly's life. PTS occupies a special place in my life. And, so does my church. And they each complement one another. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
12/20/12 4:06 pm
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Brandon Bowers |
IMO,
The college experience is to help you grow up, get out of the little world we all grow up in, and see the big picture.
It's about expanding our perspective on God, people, and the world.
It's about challenging ourselves and broadening our minds through academics.
But the real world learning doesn't happen in the classroom. You have to get that outside of the classroom. I got a pastoral ministry degree, but worked through college at Staples for 4 years (took a 6 year leave and came back).. And I was involved in the Ministerial Association at Lee... We were very similar to other extracurricular ministry group in that we were out to get practical experience in multiple venues.
Travis mentioned mentoring.... This doesn't happen enough. There aren't enough willing mentors out there. Perhaps if I had mentors to guide me a little more, I wouldn't have such a bad attitude about the church now. I had idealistic views, and once I ended up in ministry, I got really jaded really fast, and after almost 10 years out of Lee, I'm lucky to even make it to church twice a month due to my job.
In some ways, I love the church, in other ways, I can't help but shake my head. Since circumstances have yet to work out for me in the church world, I've accepted my current fate in the workplace.
So -- go to Lee.. But don't stop there. Whether you get involved in PFC, a local church, a nursing home, get some experience, and get some mentoring.. Don't end up like me..
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My Facebook www.facebook.com/theB3 |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4804
12/21/12 9:29 am
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Brandon Bowers |
Let me add this. In ministry, these days it's best to have all 3 of education, experience, and mentoring. You can get lucky with 2 of 3 but when you ask the best pastors about their experience, they got it all.
I do very well in my job because I have all 3 in that area.
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My Facebook www.facebook.com/theB3 |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4804
12/21/12 9:38 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
Brandon,
If you had just known about Acts this wouldn't have happened.
| Quote: | | I had idealistic views |
No way after reading Acts for a month would you have still been idealistic about the ministry.
Perhaps this board should be required reading for ministry students at Lee. 
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16641
12/21/12 10:35 am
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Roger Woodard |
The discussion seems a little out of focus from the original post. Who are we or what are we going to be? We have long since become a denomination instead of a movement, so it's a matter of who we are and what we've become. We are Pentecostal in doctrine only.
Absolutely, school should be a place of critical thinking and apologetics. Examine what others believe and their basic evidence for it, but always with a foundation of what we believe and why. And there's the rub. We no longer believe the fundamentals that founded the Church of God. We don't believe anything we don't live.
I'm old enough to remember Lee faculty being required not to "teach or allow to be taught" anything contrary to COG doctrine. The Declaration of Faith was required to be posted in each class room. Obviously, that's too antiquated for todays more enlightened. Face it, we've long ago passed the tipping point.
But, this ole dinosaur doesn't pass the buck to anyone or any institution for my responsibility to which I am called and ordained. I watch sadly our decline into a monument to what the Holy Spirit has done, but we are not the better for it. |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 94
12/21/12 10:42 am
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sheepdogandy |
| Roger Woodard wrote: | The discussion seems a little out of focus from the original post. Who are we or what are we going to be? We have long since become a denomination instead of a movement, so it's a matter of who we are and what we've become. We are Pentecostal in doctrine only.
Absolutely, school should be a place of critical thinking and apologetics. Examine what others believe and their basic evidence for it, but always with a foundation of what we believe and why. And there's the rub. We no longer believe the fundamentals that founded the Church of God. We don't believe anything we don't live.I'm old enough to remember Lee faculty being required not to "teach or allow to be taught" anything contrary to COG doctrine. The Declaration of Faith was required to be posted in each class room. Obviously, that's too antiquated for todays more enlightened. Face it, we've long ago passed the tipping point.
But, this ole dinosaur doesn't pass the buck to anyone or any institution for my responsibility to which I am called and ordained. I watch sadly our decline into a monument to what the Holy Spirit has done, but we are not the better for it. |
WOW! 
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7305
12/21/12 10:57 am
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J David Smith |
| Roger Woodard wrote: | The discussion seems a little out of focus from the original post. Who are we or what are we going to be? We have long since become a denomination instead of a movement, so it's a matter of who we are and what we've become. We are Pentecostal in doctrine only.
Absolutely, school should be a place of critical thinking and apologetics. Examine what others believe and their basic evidence for it, but always with a foundation of what we believe and why. And there's the rub. We no longer believe the fundamentals that founded the Church of God. We don't believe anything we don't live.
I'm old enough to remember Lee faculty being required not to "teach or allow to be taught" anything contrary to COG doctrine. The Declaration of Faith was required to be posted in each class room. Obviously, that's too antiquated for todays more enlightened. Face it, we've long ago passed the tipping point.
But, this ole dinosaur doesn't pass the buck to anyone or any institution for my responsibility to which I am called and ordained. I watch sadly our decline into a monument to what the Holy Spirit has done, but we are not the better for it. |
Roger,
I remember first connecting with you on a trip to Panama almost 13 years ago. I listened as God used you mightily to speak into the lives of the Panamanian ministers at the "School of Ministry" that day. That trip transformed my life in a way that impacts me to this day.
Although I started this dialogue with my post a couple of days ago, I do not have a pessimistic attitude. I do not believe that we have journeyed beyond the point of no return. Call me crazy, but I believe that our greatest days are still ahead of us!
I am seeing a spirit of revival in the church where I have the privilege to serve. The primary source of that hunger can be found in our students and young people. I am convinced that there is a generation coming up that has a deep desire for the supernatural power of God. They are not satisfied with a nebulous, lifeless, and religious rhetoric. They want to experience God. That is why I am crying aloud about this issue. This is not the time to surrender our Pentecostal message, or to admit defeat! It is the time to take back the message of Pentecost that brought us to this place!
I remember as I was growing up in the Church of God, how I constantly heard how we were the fastest growing denomination in the world. I submit that the reason for that rapid growth was not legalistic rules that we called holiness. However, it was a belief in the Pentecostal message that God has the power to save, heal, deliver, and transform lives.
I have been through every church growth and leadership conference that has come down the pipe. My library is filled with materials and resources on how to better my communication skills and develop my presentation. However, I am desperately hungry for a move of God that can not be explained in a book, diagrammed in a manual, or communicated in a conference. That fresh great awakening will only happen when we who are called according to His name, will humble ourselves, pray, seek the face of God, and turn from our wicked ways!
Travis, I think that your last post was brilliant! Yes, we need mentors that will speak into the lives of our young ministers and students. However, we also need Spirit filled educators in our Church of God funded institutions that are not afraid to allow the Holy Spirit to move in their lives and classrooms. We must not allow any educator in our Church of God institution to teach anything that opposes the non-negotiable teachings of our church.
As I said earlier, as long as the members, churches, state offices and international headquarters of the Church of God are sending millions of dollars of funding to these institutions, we must demand that they remain in line with the teaching of our church!
Last edited by J David Smith on 12/21/12 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 486
12/21/12 1:13 pm
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| Bible college? Consider this. |
RedBackHymnal |
Should the Church of God start a Bible College, to supplement what Lee is doing? Maybe these points should be considered:
1. I personally heard Dr. Conn say a few years ago, at the Michigan camp meeting, that he was in favor of a COG Bible College. I wonder if he still feels that way? And if so, why?
2. The COG has closed down three good Bible Colleges in the last several years, in different parts of the country. They all closed because they couldn't get enough students so they lost too much money.
3. Lee has more students than they know what to do with. Does that tell us that the people of the COG and in similar denominations are telling us what kind of educational institutions they want?
4. The Assembly of God recently decided to bring its top Bible College , in Springfield, under the umbrella of Evangel College, its liberal arts college, because it couldn't make it on its own.
5. Will Keven Wallace and others who want a Bible College put up the money to support it, or would it soon go the way of the ones we have already closed?
6. Is it possible to have a big discussion of this important question in a public forum where Dr. Conn and other educators, pastors, and COG leaders can talk about this issue? I would love to hear it.
These are some things to consider, I think. |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 72
12/21/12 7:29 pm
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Travis Johnson |
deleted (posted from phone...will do over later)
Last edited by Travis Johnson on 12/21/12 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7821
12/21/12 9:08 pm
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| Re: Bible college? Consider this. |
Dean Steenburgh |
| RedBackHymnal wrote: | Should the Church of God start a Bible College, to supplement what Lee is doing? Maybe these points should be considered:
1. I personally heard Dr. Conn say a few years ago, at the Michigan camp meeting, that he was in favor of a COG Bible College. I wonder if he still feels that way? And if so, why?
2. The COG has closed down three good Bible Colleges in the last several years, in different parts of the country. They all closed because they couldn't get enough students so they lost too much money.
3. Lee has more students than they know what to do with. Does that tell us that the people of the COG and in similar denominations are telling us what kind of educational institutions they want?
4. The Assembly of God recently decided to bring its top Bible College , in Springfield, under the umbrella of Evangel College, its liberal arts college, because it couldn't make it on its own.
5. Will Keven Wallace and others who want a Bible College put up the money to support it, or would it soon go the way of the ones we have already closed?
6. Is it possible to have a big discussion of this important question in a public forum where Dr. Conn and other educators, pastors, and COG leaders can talk about this issue? I would love to hear it.
These are some things to consider, I think. |
Just a side note:
In relation to point #4 may I say that Central Bible College began in the 1920's & about 20 years later received it's accreditation. For the time being it's technically not really under the Evangel University umbrella but it has always been independent. They both have separate campuses with the smaller Central Bible College owning a larger (older)campus. Both have their own college presidents & separate curriculum. About 2,100 kids at E.U. & about 640 at Central. A kid can play college football at Evangel & student life is a lot like any other liberal arts school. Central has a limited sports program but their basketball teams have been great. Central only offers training & education for people who want to do ministry as a vocation, no lib arts program.
In 2011 at the A/G General Council in Phoenix, Az. they voted to consolidate their 3 schools which are all located in Springfield, Mo. The 3rd school is their seminary which has about 500 post grad students. If everything goes well the schools will all be using the Evangel campus for the 2013 Fall semester. Pretty cool that all of this potential consolidation was funded privately by the Green family who own the Hobby Lobby store chain.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
12/21/12 9:27 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
May I also say that it would be a great idea for the CoG to promote & develop other locations for educating & training people.
Make them satellite Lee schools, I don't care but it would be nice if people didn't have to pull up roots & move to Tenn. just to go to the only school we have in the entire nation.
The A/G's have 18 college campuses here in the states including their 2 Native Indian schools.
Not intended to be a slam but we could do much better if we really tried.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
12/21/12 9:34 pm
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Roger Woodard |
Bro J David,
Many thanks for your kind words. That was an awesome trip & I enjoyed being with you guys on it.
Let me be clear. I have not punted on my Pentecostal Heritage. The congregation I have served for more than 16 yrs now is experiencing the greatest, continual flow of the Holy Spirit I've ever been a part of, in over 50 yrs of ministry. Power & Praise began over 8 yrs ago & for 3 yrs we continued almost every night. Hundreds were saved, Baptized with the Holy Ghost, deliverances & Book of Acts miracles. Witches were delivered. Great flow of the Spirit continues & for the most part we have only received ridicule from the area clergy.
Several Baptists & AG pastors & members came & were blessed, but very few COG.
Please know this, I hope your optimism for our future is right. I will be happy to be wrong & eat humble pie. But I see no evidence of being wrong. I travel extensively over the world. Our local fellowship has mission outreach on 4 continents & I do not believe God is/will work His end time work through any denomination. It will be accomplished through local pastors, congregations & missionaries of all denominations, who have the hunger you described. The seeker friendly churches will not be happy with the remnant church. We will continue to be marginalized as old school & other choice descriptions.
I have no problem with critical thinking. I teach apologetics in open forums & duck no controversies. BUT the power & manifestations of Pentecost are not negotiable with me. Interestingly enough, 5 Baptist Pastors who are my prayer partners here have received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, speak in tongues, pray for the sick & are experiencing miracles & power. We continue to be a magnet church for ministers & members of other denominations who are seeking the flow of the Spirit. All of this while our COG churches & pastors are running away from same.
I have no desire to debate anyone on this forum. It's obvious to me the die is cast. I usually do not respond to stuff here, but some things are just too dear to my heart to go without a response. HOWEVER, I will try to let this be my last word on the matter, if I can.
Blessings & favor from the Lord Jesus Christ be upon all of you. |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 94
12/21/12 11:26 pm
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J David Smith |
Bro. Woodard,
Thank you! Appreciate and agree with much of what you say. I think we are communicating much of the same things.
Travis,
Thank you for your comments. I think we are also much closer in theory that we realize. I appreciate your patience and facilitation of ecumenical dialogue on issues like this one. It is proof that we can have a healthy discussion among brothers without resorting to divisive tactics.
I am taking the next few days to spend with my family. I have made a commitment to my wife that I will "let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me" over the next few days. 
I feel like I have already made too many posts on this topic, but I hope that others will continue to be engaged in the discussion. I look forward to hearing the input of others.
Merry Christmas everyone! |
Friendly Face
Posts: 486
12/21/12 11:40 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | I feel like I have already made too many posts on this topic, but I hope that others will continue to be engaged in the discussion. I look forward to hearing the input of others. |
I have enjoyed reading your posts on this topic, and, for what it's worth, I don't think you have made too many.
I hope you have a merry Christmas, too! |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/21/12 11:51 pm
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KevinWallace |
1. I certainly understand the value of clarity and caution when speaking about such sensitive subjects. I'm not certain that I've been on the receiving end of whisper campaigns, but I have received a few jabs and jeers as I have tried to do what God has called me to do. To be sure these moments are no fun for those who receive them. Far be it from me to initiate them. What I have voiced on this board I have voiced cautiously and respectfully in person with those who I disagree. When I was told God should be referred to as a She during my Lee experience I tactfully retorted that I thought that was the most absurd and foolish thing I'd ever heard. It was heated and intense. I was not impressed or enlightened with such preposterous assertions. And the notion that we should create a "challenging" environment for our future leaders/ ministers is an objective opinion. If we mean challenging in the sense of pushing, coaching, mentoring, molding, stretching our thought process and impacting the way we think... Then I think that is most necessary. If we mean challenging in the sense of a self absorbed professor, infatuated with paper and ink hanging on his wall, standing behind a lecturn and confusing, demeaning, and perpetuating a line of thought that isn't conducive or harmonious with the demonination paying his/ her salary, then I will pass on that type of challenging. It is counterintuitive and unhealthy. The greatest season of learning in my life occurred while I was at Lee. Men like Dr. Bruce Tucker, Dr. Ben Perez and especially Dr. Bill Effler, Dr. Fred Garmon, made an indelible imprint on my life for which I will always be grateful. I suppose the Lee experience is contingent upon the professors one would have. I simply hope the quality control process would be efficient and forthright enough to correct the disharmony that might occur when teachers and or professors are singing in a different key. (That is assuming there are or may futuristically be those professors). I maintain the position that Lee University is a second to none, first class, flagship university. But if it is going To be the preparation ground for our future ministers, then we should continually inspect our training processes to be sure that we are Sending out well rounded, educated leaders that are full of fire of God and know how to pray. If that can't be achieved while being a liberal arts university, then I would be the first to say we need a Bible training school.
As far as funding that... You will need to see moody. He has the money.
Furthermore we both agree that the DOF is not inspired. It doesn't have to be inspired to be accurate. It is something that as a body we have agreed to be true and in harmony with scripture. Should we discuss it? Absolutely! Should we challenge it to insure that it harmonizes with Scripture? Absolutely! But after nearly 100 years of existence, and thousands of men who are holier and far wiser than I observing its contents, What meaningful change could I contribute to that document. In my opinion the DOF doesnt need to change because the Document that it sprang from (the Bible) has never changed. I didn't join the COG to fix it. I joined it because it is a movement that resonates with my understanding of scripture and the desire I have to evangelize lost and hurting humanity.
Finally, I couldn't agree more that we need mentors in a real and critical way. I feel misunderstood when I preach that in certain places. We really have a poor concept of legacy. I pray God would help us learn how to pass the baton rather than pass on with it in our hands. Many young men and women are hungry for Mentorship and formation.
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Once I thought was wrong, but...I was mistaken
Last edited by KevinWallace on 12/22/12 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 441
12/22/12 12:04 pm
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R. Keith Whitt |
J. David Smith:
| Quote: | | As one individual pointed out to me in a private conversation, there is not a large pool of Church of God and Pentecostal educators available. That could be our greatest crisis, and a subject for another discussion. |
I don't want to sidetrack the discussion, but that is not a completely defensible statement. In the name of diversity, far too many of our COG credentialed, educated, and highly qualified individuals have been denied employment to bring in individuals from outside the denomination. Consequently, they've left the COG and gone to other organizations where they are celebrated and having a tremendous influence (just take a look at the faculty list at Southeastern University).
I know of one individual who interviewed for a position at one of our educational institutions and was passed over. When he asked why, he was callously told they knew he wasn't going anywhere and "will be there when we need you." Further, they thought it was more important to bring in someone from outside the denomination to bring diversity to the faculty. The individual passed over is still credentialed with the COG (I think), but is no longer interested in teaching at one of our institutions.
When we bring in people who are not passionate about who we are, we can't be surprised when the passion is absent.
Just my O,
Keith
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R. Keith Whitt |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 684
12/22/12 4:54 pm
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