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Post Matthew 24 The Context Apocalyptic Bill
Please show us pre-trib in Matthew 24.[/quote]

Matthew 24:1-34 addresses the Nation of Israel
Matthew 24:35-51 address the Gentiles
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9/24/12 9:40 am


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Post Re: Matthew 24 The Context Resident Skeptic
Apocalyptic Bill wrote:
Please show us pre-trib in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:1-34 addresses the Nation of Israel
Matthew 24:35-51 address the Gentiles


Not true at all, my friend.

Even if it was, it still has the church going through the tribulation.

Quote:
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.


National Israel does not claim the name of Jesus, so they aren't going to suffer persecution for the name of Jesus. Besides, Jesus is addressing his disciples, the ones who would suffer for his name.
Quote:

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


In verse 15 Jesus makes it clear that the events mentioned in verses 4-14 begin happening when the man of sin is revealed and the falling away happens (mentioned in verses 10-11). Paul confirms this in 2 Thes. 2:1-4.......

Quote:
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


In verses 29-31 the Tribulation comes to an end. Immediately upon its end, the wrath of God begins to be poured out and Christ returns with his angels to gather his elect. Paul describes this very event in I Thes 4:15-17.

Now to more closely to examine your claim.....
Quote:

Matthew 24:35-51 address the Gentiles


Jesus does not shift gears. He does not change the subject.

Look at verse ....
Quote:

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


The word "that" in verse 36 is a pronoun which takes the place of another noun or subject. If there is a pronoun, then there has to be an antecedent. The antecedent is the noun that comes before the pronoun. It is the noun that the pronoun is replacing. If I say "John's birthday is coming this Saturday. That day is going to be fun.", what day is the pronoun "that" referring to? John's birthday, of course. So when we read of "that day" in verse 36, the natural question we ask is, "What day?" To find that out, we have to look at the previous verses to find out. And what verses do we find the antecedent for the pronoun "that" used in verse 36? Simple..verses 29-31.....

Quote:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


No nit picking the use of any particular Greek word can change the fact that the pronoun "that" must have an antecedent.

Verse 37 confirms this....

Quote:
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


What coming of the Son of Man? The only coming mentioned in this chapter which is found in verses 29-31.
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Post Re: Matthew 24 The Context Ventureforth
RS, you've made some good points but I don't think you can say the following and still make your argument, can you?

Quote:
Besides, Jesus is addressing his disciples, the ones who would suffer for his name.



Quote:
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted(J) and put to death,(K) and you will be hated by all nations because of me.(L)
14 And this gospel of the kingdom(P) will be preached in the whole world(Q) as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


Did these two scriptures(especially what's in bold) happen during the times of the disciples?

Quote:
In verse 15 Jesus makes it clear that the events mentioned in verses 4-14 begin happening when the man of sin is revealed and the falling away happens (mentioned in verses 10-11). Paul confirms this in 2 Thes. 2:1-4.......


Interesting you should mention verse 15 because it above all others give a clue that it is not just talking about the times of the disciples.

Quote:
5 “So when you see standing in the holy place(R) ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a](S) spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand


Not even let the "hearer" - it's "reader" he's talking to here.

But I am also not sure that they all take place near the time the man of sin is revealed. For example, 4-8 could very well take place throughout the many years leading up.

These notes necessarily don't attempt to negate your basic premise, though.
Quote:
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9/25/12 5:12 pm


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Post Re: Matthew 24 The Context Resident Skeptic
Ventureforth wrote:
RS, you've made some good points but I don't think you can say the following and still make your argument, can you?

Quote:
Besides, Jesus is addressing his disciples, the ones who would suffer for his name.



Quote:
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted(J) and put to death,(K) and you will be hated by all nations because of me.(L)
14 And this gospel of the kingdom(P) will be preached in the whole world(Q) as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


Did these two scriptures(especially what's in bold) happen during the times of the disciples?

Quote:
In verse 15 Jesus makes it clear that the events mentioned in verses 4-14 begin happening when the man of sin is revealed and the falling away happens (mentioned in verses 10-11). Paul confirms this in 2 Thes. 2:1-4.......


Interesting you should mention verse 15 because it above all others give a clue that it is not just talking about the times of the disciples.

Quote:
5 “So when you see standing in the holy place(R) ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a](S) spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand


Not even let the "hearer" - it's "reader" he's talking to here.

But I am also not sure that they all take place near the time the man of sin is revealed. For example, 4-8 could very well take place throughout the many years leading up.

These notes necessarily don't attempt to negate your basic premise, though.
Quote:


Good points, and I thought of some it myself as I was typing yesterday. It does seem Jesus is speaking to his disciples (not national Israel) and that he is referring to things they personally will encounter, UNLESS they represent the entire Body of Christ for all years to come. It's easy to see why some embrace the Preterist view.
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Post chainrattler
Tribulation is suffering experienced by God's people by those who hate God and His people.

Wrath is God's righteous anger being poured out on an unbelieving world.

In this world we will suffer tribulation and we should make every effort to insure we escape God's wrath.
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Post Resident Skeptic
I was hoping Apocalyptic Bill would respond to my answer concerning his view of Matthew 24.
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Post Daniel Rushing
Acts2Grind wrote:
pretty simple, rapture will occur and almost immediately the various wraths will begin. But the same church that is talked about from Revelations 1 through 4 is not mentioned again until the last couple chapters when He returns with the bride. How could He return with the bride if the bride is on earth going through a tribulation period? The saints you mentioned are the saints who made it somehow through the tribulation and they are resurrected after they have been martyred and that was probably by beheading. But lets be clear here, if a guy cannot make it here on earth during this life how will he make it during the tribulation life? Answer is, most if not all wont make it through the tribulation, it will be just that hard to survive


So there is more than one great and final resurrection? Why doesn't the scriptures ever mention such an event? Many first century Jews believed in a final resurrection that would be the inaugration of God's "once and for all" kingdom in Jerusalem.

These are the kinds of scriptural acrobatics that I always see in any discussion about an alleged "7 Year Tribulation." To make it fit, you have to invent other resurrections, even other raptures.
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Post diakoneo
Daniel Rushing wrote:

So there is more than one great and final resurrection? Why doesn't the scriptures ever mention such an event? Many first century Jews believed in a final resurrection that would be the inaugration of God's "once and for all" kingdom in Jerusalem.

These are the kinds of scriptural acrobatics that I always see in any discussion about an alleged "7 Year Tribulation." To make it fit, you have to invent other resurrections, even other raptures.


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Post Christlaw
Revelation 20 says this is the first resurrection. Pretrib theory says it isn't.

Rev. 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
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9/26/12 11:06 am


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Post Pastor Nations
Acts2Grind wrote:
pretty simple, rapture will occur and almost immediately the various wraths will begin. But the same church that is talked about from Revelations 1 through 4 is not mentioned again until the last couple chapters when He returns with the bride. How could He return with the bride if the bride is on earth going through a tribulation period? The saints you mentioned are the saints who made it somehow through the tribulation and they are resurrected after they have been martyred and that was probably by beheading. But lets be clear here, if a guy cannot make it here on earth during this life how will he make it during the tribulation life? Answer is, most if not all wont make it through the tribulation, it will be just that hard to survive

This above o.k.

Daniel Rushing wrote:
So there is more than one great and final resurrection? Why doesn't the scriptures ever mention such an event? Many first century Jews believed in a final resurrection that would be the inaugration of God's "once and for all" kingdom in Jerusalem.


The Book of Revelation was written in 90's and took a few years to circulate.

The early Jews did believe in His imminent return (thus pre-trib).

Daniel Rushing wrote:
These are the kinds of scriptural acrobatics that I always see in any discussion about an alleged "7 Year Tribulation."

End Times 101:

At some point in time, the antichrist will sign a seven year peace treaty with Israel. At the 3 1/2 year point the antichrist will want to be worshipped in the temple and the Jews will realize they have been tricked.

Perhaps a little Christianese, but technically the seven years is referred to as the 7-year Tribulation and last 3 1/2 years as "The Great Tribulation".

Daniel Rushing wrote:
To make it fit, you have to invent other resurrections, even other raptures.


There is:

-- Old Testament era saints
-- Old Testament era unsaved
-- New Testament era saints died/asleep
-- New Testament era martyrs
-- New Testament era unsaved
-- Raptured saints
-- Tribulation saints (martyrs)
-- Unbelievers that die in 7-year trib
-- Survivors/believers of 7-year trib.
-- Survivors/unbelievers of 7-year trib.

There are places in Scripture re: all of them ...
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9/26/12 11:51 am


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Post Resident Skeptic
Pastor Nations wrote:
Acts2Grind wrote:
pretty simple, rapture will occur and almost immediately the various wraths will begin. But the same church that is talked about from Revelations 1 through 4 is not mentioned again until the last couple chapters when He returns with the bride. How could He return with the bride if the bride is on earth going through a tribulation period? The saints you mentioned are the saints who made it somehow through the tribulation and they are resurrected after they have been martyred and that was probably by beheading. But lets be clear here, if a guy cannot make it here on earth during this life how will he make it during the tribulation life? Answer is, most if not all wont make it through the tribulation, it will be just that hard to survive

This above o.k.

Daniel Rushing wrote:
So there is more than one great and final resurrection? Why doesn't the scriptures ever mention such an event? Many first century Jews believed in a final resurrection that would be the inaugration of God's "once and for all" kingdom in Jerusalem.



The Book of Revelation was written in 90's and took a few years to circulate.

The early Jews did believe in His imminent return (thus pre-trib).

Daniel Rushing wrote:
These are the kinds of scriptural acrobatics that I always see in any discussion about an alleged "7 Year Tribulation."

End Times 101:

At some point in time, the antichrist will sign a seven year peace treaty with Israel. At the 3 1/2 year point the antichrist will want to be worshipped in the temple and the Jews will realize they have been tricked.

Perhaps a little Christianese, but technically the seven years is referred to as the 7-year Tribulation and last 3 1/2 years as "The Great Tribulation".

Daniel Rushing wrote:
To make it fit, you have to invent other resurrections, even other raptures.


There is:

-- Old Testament era saints
-- Old Testament era unsaved
-- New Testament era saints died/asleep
-- New Testament era martyrs
-- New Testament era unsaved
-- Raptured saints
-- Tribulation saints (martyrs)
-- Unbelievers that die in 7-year trib
-- Survivors/believers of 7-year trib.
-- Survivors/unbelievers of 7-year trib.

There are places in Scripture re: all of them ...




Sir, there is nowhere that says Jesus returns with his bride. The wording of Revelation 19 disputes your theory completely. I don't mean to sound unkind, but I'm really seeing a pattern here of trying to make scripture fit your theory. When shown facts to the contrary, your and other pre-tribbers' responses seem to be, "All those verses that seem to point to a post-trib rapture really don't because the rapture is pre-trib". That is not a scholarly approach at all and thus far none of you have even begun to tackle the scriptural arguments that have been brought to your attention. I made some statements concerning Matthew 24 that so far Apocalyptic Bill has ignored. Perhaps you'd like to answer my points.
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Last edited by Resident Skeptic on 9/26/12 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Pastor Nations
[quote="Resident Skeptic"]
Pastor Nations wrote:
Acts2Grind wrote:
pretty simple, rapture will occur and almost immediately the various wraths will begin. But the same church that is talked about from Revelations 1 through 4 is not mentioned again until the last couple chapters when He returns with the bride. How could He return with the bride if the bride is on earth going through a tribulation period? The saints you mentioned are the saints who made it somehow through the tribulation and they are resurrected after they have been martyred and that was probably by beheading. But lets be clear here, if a guy cannot make it here on earth during this life how will he make it during the tribulation life? Answer is, most if not all wont make it through the tribulation, it will be just that hard to survive

This above o.k.

Daniel Rushing wrote:
So there is more than one great and final resurrection? Why doesn't the scriptures ever mention such an event? Many first century Jews believed in a final resurrection that would be the inaugration of God's "once and for all" kingdom in Jerusalem.



The Book of Revelation was written in 90's and took a few years to circulate.

The early Jews did believe in His imminent return (thus pre-trib).

Daniel Rushing wrote:
These are the kinds of scriptural acrobatics that I always see in any discussion about an alleged "7 Year Tribulation."

End Times 101:

At some point in time, the antichrist will sign a seven year peace treaty with Israel. At the 3 1/2 year point the antichrist will want to be worshipped in the temple and the Jews will realize they have been tricked.

Perhaps a little Christianese, but technically the seven years is referred to as the 7-year Tribulation and last 3 1/2 years as "The Great Tribulation".

Daniel Rushing wrote:
To make it fit, you have to invent other resurrections, even other raptures.


There is:

-- Old Testament era saints
-- Old Testament era unsaved
-- New Testament era saints died/asleep
-- New Testament era martyrs
-- New Testament era unsaved
-- Raptured saints
-- Tribulation saints (martyrs)
-- Unbelievers that die in 7-year trib
-- Survivors/believers of 7-year trib.
-- Survivors/unbelievers of 7-year trib.

There are places in Scripture re: all of them ...




Resident Skeptic wrote:
Sir, there is nowhere that says Jesus returns with his bride. The wording of Revelation 19 disputes your theory completely.


I have never used the phrase that Jesus returns with His bride, although His bride does return with Him.

Interestingly, the traditional Jewish wedding is an exact typology of the pre-trib rapture.


Resident Skeptic wrote:
I don't mean to sound unkind, but I'm really seeing a pattern here of trying to make scripture fit your theory. When shown facts to the contrary, your and other pre-tribbers' responses seem to be, "All those verses that seem to point to a post-trib rapture really don't because the rapture is pre-trib". .


I do not consider you unkind, simply misinformed - and the pre-trib rapture is not theory, it is biblical fact.

Granted, many pre-tribbers do not fully understand how complete and thorough the doctrine is - and many times they mis-represent it themselves. But that doesn't change the fact of the doctrine.

And there are no Scriptures that point to a post-trib rapture.

Resident Skeptic wrote:
That is not a scholarly approach at all and thus far none of you have even begun to tackle the scriptural arguments that have been brought to your attention. I made some statements concerning Matthew 24 that so far the author of this thread has ignored. Perhaps you'd like to answer my points.


Matthew 24, Matthew 24, Matthew 24, Matthew 24.

Matthew 24 does not disprove pre-trib, only confirms it.

Btw, I just looked. My Bible has 1,951 pages and Matthew 24 is about 3 of them.

I don't have time to teach an end-times class here, and I may not have time to respond to your next post about Matthew 24 - God bless ...
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9/26/12 2:52 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
[quote="Pastor Nations"]
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Pastor Nations wrote:
Acts2Grind wrote:
pretty simple, rapture will occur and almost immediately the various wraths will begin. But the same church that is talked about from Revelations 1 through 4 is not mentioned again until the last couple chapters when He returns with the bride. How could He return with the bride if the bride is on earth going through a tribulation period? The saints you mentioned are the saints who made it somehow through the tribulation and they are resurrected after they have been martyred and that was probably by beheading. But lets be clear here, if a guy cannot make it here on earth during this life how will he make it during the tribulation life? Answer is, most if not all wont make it through the tribulation, it will be just that hard to survive

This above o.k.

Daniel Rushing wrote:
So there is more than one great and final resurrection? Why doesn't the scriptures ever mention such an event? Many first century Jews believed in a final resurrection that would be the inaugration of God's "once and for all" kingdom in Jerusalem.



The Book of Revelation was written in 90's and took a few years to circulate.

The early Jews did believe in His imminent return (thus pre-trib).

Daniel Rushing wrote:
These are the kinds of scriptural acrobatics that I always see in any discussion about an alleged "7 Year Tribulation."

End Times 101:

At some point in time, the antichrist will sign a seven year peace treaty with Israel. At the 3 1/2 year point the antichrist will want to be worshipped in the temple and the Jews will realize they have been tricked.

Perhaps a little Christianese, but technically the seven years is referred to as the 7-year Tribulation and last 3 1/2 years as "The Great Tribulation".

Daniel Rushing wrote:
To make it fit, you have to invent other resurrections, even other raptures.


There is:

-- Old Testament era saints
-- Old Testament era unsaved
-- New Testament era saints died/asleep
-- New Testament era martyrs
-- New Testament era unsaved
-- Raptured saints
-- Tribulation saints (martyrs)
-- Unbelievers that die in 7-year trib
-- Survivors/believers of 7-year trib.
-- Survivors/unbelievers of 7-year trib.

There are places in Scripture re: all of them ...




Resident Skeptic wrote:
Sir, there is nowhere that says Jesus returns with his bride. The wording of Revelation 19 disputes your theory completely.


I have never used the phrase that Jesus returns with His bride, although His bride does return with Him.

Interestingly, the traditional Jewish wedding is an exact typology of the pre-trib rapture.


Resident Skeptic wrote:
I don't mean to sound unkind, but I'm really seeing a pattern here of trying to make scripture fit your theory. When shown facts to the contrary, your and other pre-tribbers' responses seem to be, "All those verses that seem to point to a post-trib rapture really don't because the rapture is pre-trib". .


I do not consider you unkind, simply misinformed - and the pre-trib rapture is not theory, it is biblical fact.

Granted, many pre-tribbers do not fully understand how complete and thorough the doctrine is - and many times they mis-represent it themselves. But that doesn't change the fact of the doctrine.

And there are no Scriptures that point to a post-trib rapture.

Resident Skeptic wrote:
That is not a scholarly approach at all and thus far none of you have even begun to tackle the scriptural arguments that have been brought to your attention. I made some statements concerning Matthew 24 that so far the author of this thread has ignored. Perhaps you'd like to answer my points.


Matthew 24, Matthew 24, Matthew 24, Matthew 24.

Matthew 24 does not disprove pre-trib, only confirms it.

Btw, I just looked. My Bible has 1,951 pages and Matthew 24 is about 3 of them.

I don't have time to teach an end-times class here, and I may not have time to respond to your next post about Matthew 24 - God bless ...



I CHALLENGE you to show us where Matthew 24 teaches a pre-trib rapture. This is a respectful challenge, but it is one nonetheless. ALL eschatology MUST be interpreted in light of what Jesus himself taught on the subject.

Furthermore, the parable of the virgins shows us what the marriage will be like. The shout is given "the bridegroom cometh". That proves his coming will not be a secret. When does Jesus have this shout occurring in Matthew 24? Where does Revelation 19 have the Bridegroom appearing?

Since you insist on making absolute statements, I'll join you. The pre trib argument is a flawed, unbiblical view of eschatology. THAT is a fact.
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9/26/12 3:11 pm


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Post Pastor Nations
Pastor Nations wrote:
I don't have time to teach an end-times class here, and I may not have time to respond to your next post about Matthew 24 - God bless ...

Resident Skeptic wrote:
I CHALLENGE you to show us where Matthew 24 teaches a pre-trib rapture. This is a respectful challenge, but it is one nonetheless.


It only took 19 minutes, now, that's pretty funny right there.

Resident Skeptic wrote:
ALL eschatology MUST be interpreted in light of what Jesus himself taught on the subject.


Sounding hyper-spiritual does not make your doctrine correct.

Resident Skeptic wrote:
Furthermore, the parable of the virgins shows us what the marriage will be like. The shout is given "the bridegroom cometh". That proves his coming will not be a secret. When does Jesus have this shout occurring in Matthew 24? Where does Revelation 19 have the Bridegroom appearing?

In your fixation re Matt 24, Noah and the ark is a type of the rapture. He was a preacher of righteousness, God's wrath was poured out on the wicked, Noah and his family were lifted up to safety above the wrath.

However, if you are looking for every part of a teaching in every Scripture, that is going to be difficult.

Now, regarding the parable of the virgins:

"And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!'" Matthew 25:6

(Part of the traditional Jewish wedding ceremony: The best man would announce "the bridegroom is coming". There's also the seven day feast and the bridegroom carrying his bride away, etc. - just like the pre-trib rapture)

Helps explain 1 Thess 4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

and, Daniel 12:1-2 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Look, if you really wanted to learn rather than beat the Mat 24 drum, then go back and study - wish I had more time here, but I don't - very unlikely I'll be able to respond here for a few days, God bless you ...
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9/26/12 3:46 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Quote:
(Part of the traditional Jewish wedding ceremony: The best man would announce "the bridegroom is coming". There's also the seven day feast and the bridegroom carrying his bride away, etc. - just like the pre-trib rapture)


A shout is given. It's not done in secret. Therefore, it fits the Matthew 24 and Revelation 19 post trib view.


Quote:
and, Daniel 12:1-2 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.
"

Jesus has this happening at the end of the Tribulation as does Revelation 19.
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9/26/12 3:54 pm


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Post Christlaw
Noah and his family were protected by God through the flood. They were not raptured out of the world. They were kept safe by the hand of God in the midst of God's judgment on the world without being taken out of this world, just as the children of Israel were kept safe from harm during the plagues God poured out on the Egyptians.
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9/26/12 6:20 pm


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Post Ventureforth
Whenever it is, apparently it will be sudden and at an unexpected hour.

Quote:
43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Matthew 24:43


Quote:
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2


et. al.

Scripture gives the impression that people will be about their daily business.

Quote:
36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.


Moreover, we won't know the day or the hour. Will we know the week, month or year?

Scofield believes those in Rev. 7:14 are not of the church:

Quote:
The great tribulation will be, however, a period of salvation. An election out of Israel is seen as sealed for God Rev 7:4-8 and, with an innumerable multitude of Gentiles Rev 7:9 are said to have come "out of the great tribulation" Rev 7:14. They are not of the priesthood, the church, to which they seem to stand somewhat in the relation of the Levites to the priests under the Mosaic Covenant. The great tribulation is immediately followed by the return of Christ in glory, and the events associated therewith Mt 24:29,30.


http://bible.cc/revelation/7-14.htm

Personally, I'm hoping for pre-trib but I know there seems to be fairly strong scriptural support for mid and post.


Last edited by Ventureforth on 9/26/12 10:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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9/26/12 10:26 pm


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Post Re: Question for Post Tribbers Mark Ledbetter
Curtis Lowe II wrote:
I have a sincere question for those who believe in Post trib. I an honestly trying to grow in my knowledge of the end times. In reading chapter 7 of Revelations tonight I notice some thing.

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If these are people who were martyred during the trib. and the rapture and first resurrection is not until the end of the trib. then how are they already in heaven in their white robes. Could it be that the first resurrection has already taken place and now those who are martyred are resurrected immediately or at least soon after their death and now are also part of the first resurrection of all the righteous as opposed to the second resurrection of the unrighteous?


First, I believe in a pre=wrath (1 Thes 5:9) resurrection/rapture.

Second, Rev 7 is an interlude, a chance to catch our breath after the first series of cataclysmic events are released with the loosening of the seven seals and prior to the sounding of the seven trumpets. What John reveals is the sealing of the 144,000 to preserve them during times of persecution to come. They are the first fruits of Jews that embrace Yeshua as their redeemer and as first fruits there are more to come (Rev 14:4).

The innumerable dressed in white are those that emerged from the “great tribulation” – and because they are “before the throne” it is reasonable they are the “dead in Christ,” or those that have fallen asleep in Christ (1 Thes 4.14) whom God will bring with Him – Jesus – at the resurrection/rapture (1 Thes 4.14-17, see Jude 14-15, Rev 19:14).

Their appearance in Rev 7 must not be taken chronologically. Chapter 7 reveals one important truth: Some shall be preserved during “great tribulation,” while others may perish. With the seventh seal, severity of judgment increases.

They appear again in Rev 15:2 and again they are found at the Throne of God singing praises.

Third, there is an “order” in the “1st Resurrection” :

Quote:
" But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power." (1 Corinthians 15:20-24, NASB95)


The Order of the First Resurrection:

    Messiah the First Fruits
    The Two Witnesses of Rev 11:14-16
    The Harvest of the Righteous Rev 14:11-12; 1 Thes 4:13-5:11
    The Rev 20:4-7 Resurrection that completes the First Resurrection

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9/26/12 10:40 pm


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Post Why can't we just admit Da Sheik
We don't have all the answers when it comes to eschatology Question Question Acts Enthusiast
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9/27/12 6:20 am


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Post Re: Question for Post Tribbers Resident Skeptic
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The Order of the First Resurrection:

[list]Messiah the First Fruits
The Two Witnesses of Rev 11:14-16
The Harvest of the Righteous Rev 14:11-12; 1 Thes 4:13-5:11
The Rev 20:4-7 Resurrection that completes the First Resurrection


I don't believe Revelation is written in chronological order.
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