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Tom, I'm taking this in line by line and digesting slowly... |
caseyleejones |
While I could be wrong, but it does not seem that you typed this out off the top of your head. Is this from some type of book or manuscript you wrote? If so, I would like to read more as I continue to read this....very good stuff. |
Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11798 9/21/12 7:43 pm
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Re: Tom, I'm taking this in line by line and digesting slowl |
Rafael D Martinez |
Tom Sterbens wrote: | caseyleejones wrote: | While I could be wrong, but it does not seem that you typed this out off the top of your head. Is this from some type of book or manuscript you wrote? If so, I would like to read more as I continue to read this....very good stuff. |
I formalized the "thought sheet" a couple years ago. Actually born of a conversation with Lee Grady-the Charisma mag writer. (And "no," I do not "know" him...we were just stick at an airport together). He said he was not aware of a pointed, biblically based book on restoration and suggested I should write the thoughts I had shared with him.
What I "am" currently working on is a manual for the 9 month residential addiction recovery ministry we have. We have had a residential addiction recovery ministry for about 6 years...there are between 30 - 35 guys in it at any time, with a waiting list of 75-100 at any time. The second thing I posted (from Hosea) is something I have used for wives, parents, family members of addicted people for years. I use it as a foundation for fallen ministers as well. As a matter of fact, almost exclusively I have found a type of "disregard' for the word of God, by pastors who have crashed and burned. Almost unanimously the men have an orientation toward the Word of God as "tool of their trade" rather than the pulsating source of life. Seriously. In fact, that has been one of the things that has amazed me..and yet, the marginalizing of "God's Words" are the earliest indication of deception (cf. Gen 2 and the serpent), so I shouldn't have been surprised.
Anyway, this is a portion of the stuff I sort of regurgitated into one place to begin shaping some more cohesive thoughts on the matter. |
There is a book on Biblical restoration of fallen leaders that I just packed away for the move that I felt was very good. Sorry, I'd dig it out, but it's under several hundred pounds of books, media and ministry office stuff. _________________ www.spiritwatch.org
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16
These are trying times. Everyone's trying something and getting caught. The Church Lady, 1987 |
Acts-dicted Posts: 7766 9/21/12 9:18 pm
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Nick Park |
Tom, a couple of thoughts that may (or may not ) add to your thinking.
1. The moral failure rate among high-profile pastors seems very high. Is it possible that we, as the Church, have contributed to this by buying into the world's 'Celebrity Culture'? Very few people have enough integrity not to have their heads turned by the adulation and expectation that gets heaped onto superstar pastors. Then we can slip into entitlement thinking where the rules other people have to live by somehow don't apply to us.
2. Most of us want to see the fallen restored. I can think of one or two people I greatly admire who have fallen into sin. I would love to see them ministering in their previous effectiveness and anointing. But (and it's a big 'but' for me) the preaching ministry seems to require a large measure of trust from a congregation. Is it possible to sit as a part of a congregation and listen to a preacher (knowing that at one stage before he preached while living a lie) without finding yourself thinking, "I wonder if he's lying to me again"? _________________ Senior Pastor, Solid Rock Church, Drogheda
National Overseer, Church of God, Ireland
Executive Director, Evangelical Alliance Ireland
http://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/ |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1021 9/22/12 8:38 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
Nicely done Tom.
That is some deep thinking there, my friend.
You always can put things into words so much better that me and most others. Not sure how you stir up that gift - but you got it.
I guess my gift is only "shaken not stirred" (said with Sean Connery voice) _________________ Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16646 9/22/12 9:37 am
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philunderwood |
As someone that has been on both sides of this issue I can say read Tom's words very, very deliberately and slowly. I am not sure there is ever an escape from the soul injury one perpetrates on themselves and those associated with them. It is a healing process we should see as not having an end. While daily attention, after a time, is not necessary, there is never a time where someone injured in this way does not need a loving, caring, hand on the shoulder letting them know they are responsible for the future now and cannot erase the past (only God can do that and we are not that good at it); there is never a time when they do not need to be asked how they are doing; there is never a time when the enemy doesn't try to exploit them either through arrogance or ignorance; there is never a time when they need to feel as though they are hopeless for that kills the soul. _________________ Live an epiK life!
Discover More...
http://www.refocusing.org
A Mission in Formation
www.bluewaterinthekeys.com |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3954 9/22/12 10:22 am
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bonnie knox |
Good thoughts, Tom.
One thing I see is how divisive the issue of restoration is to a congregation.
If there were teachings and plans of actions on how to deal with a failure BEFORE they happened, I think it would save a lot of grief to the congregation.
We have an elder in our church who attended another church for years. Apparently someone at that church who was on the pastoral staff had a "moral failure." I've heard this particular elder reference with anger and incredulity that "there were people who DIDN'T WANT THAT PASTOR RESTORED!" Between the lines I'm reading that there were people who didn't want him back in leadership right away (and granted, some who maybe never wanted him back in leadership). |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 9/22/12 10:55 am
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Great thread |
Resident Skeptic |
Both Tom's writings and the responses here are excellent. _________________ "It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 9/22/12 11:46 am
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Christlaw |
What if he wasn't lying? I recall being somewhat surprised a while back when a pastor I know who boldly taught that everybody HAS to sin every day in word, thought, and deed, and that it is nothing but pride to think one can ever live in victory over sin (Westminster Confession of Faith type stuff, you know) was fired by his congregation when his adulterous affair with his secretary became known. My thought was he was simply living out his faith and showing by example what it means to be "just a sinner saved by grace." _________________ If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face Posts: 349 9/22/12 1:07 pm
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Christlaw |
At the risk of sounding self-righteous, I can say that for me hearing that a minister has fallen, no matter how prominent he may have been, is always sad and discouraging to hear. I honestly am never happy at such news, even if I personally was not a fan of his ministry. To me it would be a truly Satanic attitude to rejoice that someone has fallen into sin. _________________ If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face Posts: 349 9/22/12 1:40 pm
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Christlaw |
Do you mean we block the path of redemption by not helping restore such a one in meekness? Yes I've seen that happen. I suppose since I have never been in authority over someone who has fallen, I've never had the occasion to try to stand in the way of their redemption. (Not that I would want to). _________________ If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face Posts: 349 9/22/12 7:05 pm
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What about those who "don't get caught".... |
Resident Skeptic |
...but truly confess and forsake their sin?
David Wilkerson admitted to "something" immoral on more than one occasion. He said he justified opening the door to this thing when his wife's cancer made it impossible for her to fulfill her wifely duties for a very long length of time. He admitted it at least twice from the pulpit while preaching, and even talked about on Swaggart's daily telecast "A Study in the Word".
He never said what it was, but he said he does consider himself at the very least "an adulterer at heart". This was before he left the AoG.
What if a minister were to commit a one time act of adultery, repent and forsake that sin and never tell anyone except maybe his wife? Is it always God's will for the whole world to know these things? _________________ "It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted Posts: 8065 9/23/12 4:13 pm
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Re: What about those who "don't get caught".... |
Christlaw |
Resident Skeptic wrote: | ...but truly confess and forsake their sin?
David Wilkerson admitted to "something" immoral on more than one occasion. He said he justified opening the door to this thing when his wife's cancer made it impossible for her to fulfill her wifely duties for a very long length of time. He admitted it at least twice from the pulpit while preaching, and even talked about on Swaggart's daily telecast "A Study in the Word".
He never said what it was, but he said he does consider himself at the very least "an adulterer at heart". This was before he left the AoG.
What if a minister were to commit a one time act of adultery, repent and forsake that sin and never tell anyone except maybe his wife? Is it always God's will for the whole world to know these things? |
Pretty sure every one of us has been an adulterer at heart at least once in our ministry. Probably more than once.
In my view, there is no need to confess such things to anyone but God as if one had actually committed adultery. Depending on how gracious and understanding the wife is, it may not be a good idea to confess it to her, either.
Now if it has progressed from lust to a pornography addiction, that would be another level obviously, since he has now involved himself and the actors/models in his sin. Seems I recall seeing a few years ago where the Foursquare denomination had spelled out different rehabilitation/restoration for porn addiction as opposed to actually committing adultery. _________________ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Last edited by Christlaw on 9/23/12 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face Posts: 349 9/23/12 5:52 pm
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Christlaw |
Several years ago I had a lady in my church try to justify her desire to divorce her husband because he had confessed to her that he had "committed adultery in his heart" (lusted after a woman other than his wife). Seriously. What's even more unbelievable is she acted shocked when I told her that her husband sounded just like all the men I know, Christian or not.
Some things are probably better left unsaid. _________________ If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
Friendly Face Posts: 349 9/23/12 7:35 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Definitely rebuilding stability of godly character is crucial to any true restoration process. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 9/23/12 9:24 pm
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Some really heavy stuff there Sterbens..... |
rickfowler |
Thank you Tom for diving in where others fear to tread. It is such a difficult thing to see people restored and to me the overriding issue or cutting to the chase has always been the person being restored. Their heart and attitude are needless to say the single most important element to success or failure. I state this so simplistically because God is ready to restore. His acts are redemptive in nature. It is whether we truly want restoration or do we want our "ministry" back. Your digging is so deep and thought provoking into the workings of the body and the individual, thank you. It appears to me that persons that are seeking redemption from addiction struggle far less with entitlement, the word you used, than the persons who have been led some type of ministry. That is not to say it isn't there,because I have observed it there as well, but rather it seems to be an exception.
Again thank you for causing us to look inwardly and come to grips with our own lives. May we all be "suspicious" of who we are and why we do what we do.
Rick |
Friendly Face Posts: 148 9/26/12 10:52 am
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diakoneo |
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Quote: | 1. The concept of restoration offered in Galatians 6 refers to, “a fault into which the brother is betrayed ‘unawares,’ so that it is not intentionally wrong” (Delling, TDNT 4. 14)…”not a settled course of action but an isolated action” (Bruce). “Burton, Vincent, Expositors, and Meyer think that it refers to the Christian himself being overtaken by the sin before he is aware that he has done wrong.” (Wuest)
It seems clear that the notion of premeditated and calculated action or sin is not what is being addressed by this passage. That, however, does not mean that we should not act redemptively toward a person who has sinned with calculation and has now repented. |
Is it possible that some cannot be restored?
I ask this because as I read Galatians 6:1 the word "if" stands out... Quote: | If a person be overtaken in a fault. | "If" is a conditional particle and is in the original...it is not something added for clarification. The condition is that the person is "overtaken" and the idea of the Greek word "prolambano" is fore-take with the idea of surprise.
If there is premeditation of sin and a walking in it, are we talking about the same thing?
I am not talking about salvation. I believe the word here relates to position in the body. Restore- Quote: | Strong's G2675 katartizo: to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) |
The person may have been a valuable eye (as he/she pertained to the Body) but now due to deliberately walking in sin, can no longer function as an eye in the way he did. We don't pluck it out and throw it away, but we also don't use it as we once did. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3382 9/27/12 9:57 am
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The System is broken just like others we have |
Apocalyptic Bill |
Pastor A loses his credentials because of an extra-marital affair. He goes through and completes the restoration process, and is not reinstated.
Pastor B loses his credentials for the same thing, he says he "repented" and is book for bookhoos of revivals and meetings and credentials are restored and is pastoring again.
Pastor C had two previous marriages when he was in sin, saved by the grace of God and his now an ordained bishop. Now if he marries the help mate God sent him he has to turn in his credentials.
Pastor D has been faithful in ministry, and has had an uphill battle all his life, but yet never got revival one to preach as an evangelist.
Just to show how broken our system is. _________________ Looking for the Blessed Hope!- Titus 2:13
Bill Coble, D.Min.
Facebook: facebook.com/apocalypticbill
Twitter: @billforjc |
Hey, DOC Posts: 71 10/1/12 10:32 am
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Tom... |
Ed Brewer |
I've been peeking in the window of this forum intermittently for a few years now, and I must say that this may the be most IMPORTANT discussion in the context of ministry that I've seen. You speak with a prophetic voice and a pastor's heart, my brother, and once again I find myself gleaning from you. Thank you for your leadership, my brother.
Ed _________________ ....from Barney Creek to Bountyland through every open door |
Friendly Face Posts: 312 10/1/12 12:56 pm
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