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 Wyatt... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | | "Christ emptied himself" is not an argument. It's a plain fact of Scripture, totally in agreement with the doctrine of the Trinity. It explains perfectly well every one of these supposed contradictions you raise. It is not an assumption of a mistaken belief borne of a desperate attempt to explain the unexplainable. |
I think we can all agree that if the Son of God became a man, it would, of necessity, be a step down, requiring a certain emptying of Himself of the complete fullness of His station.
I grasp that in His humanness, Jesus got hungry, thirsty, etc.
But in no way do we see Jesus "limited"--especially not self-limited--in terms of Spirit or Mind. If He had indeed limited His knowledge, you don't find it the least bit unusual that He retained His knowledge of the infinite past apparently (having seen Satan fall), and retained His knowledge of the distant future (telling us what would be)...yet did not know when He would return?
The doctrine of the Trinity NECESSITATES that you hold this position. After all, we can't have God running around not knowing things, so we must explain it.
In other words, this verse does not lead us TO the trinity, but rather the trinity leads us to this interpretation of the verse.
As for the emptying explaining all the "contradictions" that I raise, no, it doesn't. It's not an explanation. It's an "excuse," I claim. A way to wave off anything that doesn't fit with the Trinity. Though I certainly do not believe you hold that position for that reason! What it DOES explain is how Jesus could be God and yet not know something vitally important.
My own explanation of the Godhead does not have to resort to this. It simply understands that for there to TRULY be ONE GOD, then there are not three co-equal PERSONS making up this ONE God Who, throughout the scripture, is clearly a single PERSON. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
3/17/12 5:08 am
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| Nick... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | Actually it is co-equality, and it is the Trinity.
You don't find it the least bit unusual that Jesus commanded the sea and storm, healed the sick, raised the dead, told the distant past from first person narrative, told the future...yet in this ONE PARTICULAR, unlike all the other times, He had purposely withheld information from Himself?
If you wish to believe that, my beloved Irish friend, I have no qualms with you doing so. But to "explain" things that don't fit by saying, "Oh, that was just Jesus emptying Himself"--as in when Jesus refers to our God as HIS God--well, I'll have to say that it doesn't really explain anything.
It's also the most amazing and wonderful example of voluntary servanthood. And if we understood that better, then our Christianity would be transformed and it would change the way we act and speak toward each other.
At least that's how some guy called Paul described it in Philippians 1:1-11 |
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Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
3/17/12 5:12 am
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| Re: Nick... |
Nick Park |
| FloridaForever wrote: |
You don't find it the least bit unusual that Jesus commanded the sea and storm, healed the sick, raised the dead, told the distant past from first person narrative, told the future |
None of those things are a demonstration of divine characteristics. Jesus could tell the distant past from a first person narrative because He prayed, heard His Father speak to Him, and studied the Scriptures to see what they said about Himself.
As for the other things you mention - they are not proof of divinity, but are examples of what men and women can do by faith in God. Which fits very well with what Jesus said in John 14:12-14
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
_________________
Senior Pastor, Solid Rock Church, Drogheda
National Overseer, Church of God, Ireland
Executive Director, Evangelical Alliance Ireland
http://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/ |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
3/17/12 6:30 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | As for the other things you mention - they are not proof of divinity, but are examples of what men and women can do by faith in God. Which fits very well with what Jesus said in John 14:12-14 |
Amen and hallelujah!
(So Nick is Pentecostal, afterall.  ) |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
3/17/12 9:02 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
Briefly, because I'm typing this on my phone, but it is definitely worth noting the following with regard to Jesus watching Satan fall like lightning:
Luke 10:17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18 And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19 “Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20 “Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.” NASB
John Wesley notes concerning this passage:
10:18 I beheld Satan - That is, when ye went forth, I saw the kingdom of Satan, which was highly exalted, swiftly and suddenly cast down.
10:19 I give you power - That is, I continue it to you: and nothing shall hurt you - Neither the power, nor the subtilty of Satan.
10:20 Rejoice not so much that the devils are subject to you, as that your names are written in heaven - Reader, so is thine, if thou art a true, believer. God grant it may never be blotted out!
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Also, Luke 2:52 says that He GREW in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man, so to claim that Jesus was omniscient actually betrays a remarkable assumption on your part, FF. Christ's prophetic and predictive power, while certainly greater in degree than anyone else's (for John's gospel says the Father gave Christ the Spirit without measure), were the same in kind as all other inspired men of God in Scripture--power and insight due, not to inherent divinity, but rather, to the Spirit of God operating in His life. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
3/17/12 11:47 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Also, with regard to the Trinity, there are in fact many trinitarians who hold fast to the idea that Jesus was in fact omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent in his incarnate state. I find their position to be in contradiction to the plain sense of the Scriptures, but in any case the point is affirmation of the Trinity does not necessarily mean one must affirm Christ's voluntary self-limitation of his divine attributes. |
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Posts: 12817
3/17/12 12:17 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
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| Human |
doyle |
He was omniscient prior to the incarnation when "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
And He was omniscient after Resurrection and Ascension, but does that necessarily mean He was so while in human form here on earth?"
Doyle
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The largest room in the world is the room for improvement. |
Acts-celerate Owner
Posts: 6957
3/17/12 3:05 pm
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| Re: Human |
chainrattler |
| doyle wrote: | He was omniscient prior to the incarnation when "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."
And He was omniscient after Resurrection and Ascension, but does that necessarily mean He was so while in human form here on earth?"
Doyle |
Jesus became like us. He shared in our humanity so that we can someday share in His glory. He was just as omniscient on earth as any of us are. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 975
3/17/12 7:55 pm
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| Nick... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
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Just a couple of verses that clearly indicate that Jesus was REMEMBERING (for lack of a better term) what had been before.
This is not received by revelation, but by recall. Clearly, He was not at all blind to everything EXCEPT what was revealed to Him by God. He came into the world with knowledge of Who He was, etc., it seems.
And if so, then why was this ONE THING hidden from Him? Yes, we can appeal to "that's just God's inscrutable plan," and that's fine, but it's not very satisfactory, I don't think. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
3/18/12 3:49 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| There is no reason why that knowledge couldn't have come to him by revelation. This was a man who repeatedly said things like "My doctrine is not my own, but His that sent me" and "This I have received of My Father." |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
3/18/12 5:16 pm
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| Quiet Wyatt... |
FloridaForever |
Two things...
1) We would never say that it came to by revelation...if not for attempting to protect the doctrine of the Trinity...and the subsequent need to "explain" how God the Son did not know the date of His return.
2) When someone say "I" and "me" in the way Jesus did, it is understood to be recall/recollection. If you have a revelation of something you DID, well how is that distinguishable from recollection? |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
3/18/12 6:48 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
If a fact can just be explained equally as well by two competing theories, then the fact itself proves neither.
Some theologians in the past have in fact held to what you seem to be holding on to--the idea that Jesus was basically a kind of superman, with, for instance, the baby Jesus' human brain holding omniscience within it while nevertheless physically growing in wisdom and knowledge just like any other human baby's mind and brain would.
It is really hard to imagine a more absurd idea, but nevertheless it is what the "Jesus as superman" type of theology requires one to believe.
Jesus himself said He received his teaching from His Father, and only did those things He saw the Father doing, only said those things he heard the Father saying, and that "of mine own self I can do nothing."
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 3/18/12 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
3/18/12 7:07 pm
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| Wyatt... |
FloridaForever |
I absolutely believe that there was indeed a great humbling that Jesus took to become a human. This is clear from the very fact that the Son of God could be looked upon with human eyes.
However, the two competing theories do not EQUALLY explain the issue. I believe that the plain, literal understanding that Jesus was RECALLING something He had seen before He was born on earth is the clear meaning of the scriptures. It is the other take that forces it into a mold that seems odd and unfitting to the scriptures.
In the FLESH, Jesus was a man working as an anointed man, as best I can tell. He hungered. He thirsted. He walked on water.
BUT in spirit, He clearly was divine. The logical way to see this is to start with the understanding the humans are comprised of body, soul, and spirit. If ALL THREE were human, then what part of Jesus was divine?
I think C.S. Lewis anticipated/addressed this problem by simply admitting that Jesus is indeed more than a human, and thus able to render succor to humanity.
We have two competing views--probably because the early church had not established this themselves: that God BECAME flesh...and that God was IN the flesh. Both will work, but clearly if God became flesh 100%, then what part is God...if it's all flesh? |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
3/18/12 7:16 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
The Word became flesh. I don't think making Him out to be basically schizophenic (with a human flesh side and a divine spirit side) does justice to His unity of personality.
Hebrews says it was necessary for him to be made like unto his brethren in all things, and that He was in all points tempted like as we--yet without sin. I submit that His incarnation means essentially nothing to us if it amounted to basically just God showing off His ability. "Hey, look at Me everybody, I can APPEAR to be just like you, though I'm really not just like you."
Heb. 2:17 Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people. NASB
The "Jesus as superman" idea makes the above simply impossible. |
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Posts: 12817
3/18/12 7:20 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quote: | | The Word became flesh. I don't think making Him out to be basically schizophrenic |
But when the Word became flesh, he did not cease to be God. Saying that he took on a human will and nature to co-exist and coincide with his pre-existing divine nature does not denote schizophrenia. Two natures, not two personalities. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/18/12 7:37 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Quote: | | The Word became flesh. I don't think making Him out to be basically schizophrenic |
But when the Word became flesh, he did not cease to be God. Saying that he took on a human will and nature to co-exist and coincide with his pre-existing divine nature does not denote schizophrenia. Two natures, not two personalities. |
I absolutely affirm that He always was and always will be God. I do not find the 'two natures' concept really makes sense, though I realize the idea was popular by the time of the Council of Chalcedon.
I was responding to FF's idea that Jesus sometimes acted by his flesh and sometimes acted by his spirit. I submit that He never for a moment lived 'according to the flesh' in the scriptural sense of independence from the Holy Spirit. To live according to the flesh is to live in sin. |
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Posts: 12817
3/18/12 8:01 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| I believe Jesus only had one nature--the Word became flesh. He didn't just add a human nature to himself, using it only when it suited Him. He was fully divine and fully human. He is now fully God and fully glorified humanity. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
3/18/12 8:04 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | I believe Jesus only had one nature--the Word became flesh. He didn't just add a human nature to himself, using it only when it suited Him. He was fully divine and fully human. He is now fully God and fully glorified humanity. |
I agree with your assessment. Nevertheless, I think you are straining at a gnat over words. If he didn't have that human nature before, then it had to be added to his person. He did this by becoming flesh. In that sense it was "added". |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/18/12 8:53 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Became flesh, not added flesh.
To my mind the big problem with the two natures idea is it does in fact make him out to be essentially schizophrenic, or else it makes his true humanity out to be a sham, a mere appearance, as if He were human, though not in fact really human.
If I recall correctly, it was one of the later councils which went so far as to say Jesus had two WILLS at the same time. How nuts is that? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
3/18/12 9:24 pm
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