 |
Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Message |
Author |
 |
bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | However, in order to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and in order to minister the gifts and callings God places in your life - you cannot do that in isolation, you must be in fellowship with other believers of like precious faith. |
That is a given in the original post:
| bradfreeman wrote: | | ...the fellowship that is ESSENTIAL to normal, healthy Christianity... |
|
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
12/22/11 12:31 am
|
|
|
|  |
 |
|
|
| |
chainrattler |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | However, in order to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and in order to minister the gifts and callings God places in your life - you cannot do that in isolation, you must be in fellowship with other believers of like precious faith. |
That is a given in the original post:
| bradfreeman wrote: | | ...the fellowship that is ESSENTIAL to normal, healthy Christianity... |
|
Two believers + Jesus = Church
One believer + Jesus does not equal Church |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 975
12/22/11 8:52 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bonnie knox |
| chainrattler wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | However, in order to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and in order to minister the gifts and callings God places in your life - you cannot do that in isolation, you must be in fellowship with other believers of like precious faith. |
That is a given in the original post:
| bradfreeman wrote: | | ...the fellowship that is ESSENTIAL to normal, healthy Christianity... |
|
Two believers + Jesus = Church
One believer + Jesus does not equal Church |
Yes, we've got that. Really. The question is can a Christian find this fellowship, community, and corporate worship in ways other than the conventional, all-meet-in-a-dedicated-building-Sunday-morning way. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
12/22/11 10:33 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Paul and John...the Lord |
diakoneo |
must have thought it was pretty important!
1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth
2 Corinthians 1:1 unto the church of God which is at Corinth,
Galatians 1:2 unto the churches of Galatia:
1 Thessalonians 1:1 unto the church of the Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians 1:1 unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia:
What if you decided you didn't want to go to church when the letter to the Corinthians was read to the assembly? Yeah, I guess you could have read it later, if you could read it in the language it was written. I think the initial reading of it to the assembly, though must have meant far more to the church (given the division in the church) than to the individual.
Is going to church necessary to be a Christian? If it was then how often should we go, to maintain our Christianity? Are the folks who could only assemble once per month less Christian?
I think it has to do more with the desire God has put in us to assemble with like minded believers and sit in heavenly places in Christ, than a rule to keep our Christianity...that is the hunger to be a part of the grace of God! |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
12/22/11 11:20 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| I might have missed this... |
Chris Stiles |
"Go to Church" seems like a very weird and religious statement. I go to the gas station. I go to Wal-mart. I go to the doctor. I go to the mall...
Church is not something you "go" to. As a follower of Christ, we are the Church. I am a pastor, but I don't "go" to church.
We have taught people incorrectly for quite some time to place a high honor on "going" to a building. Instead of teaching the higher honor of building the kingdom.
So that means all I have to do is sit at home, read my Bible, and give to the Red Cross, NO! If you are not connecting with other believers, you are missing out on one of the best parts of being a Christ-follower- FELLOWSHIP OF BELIEVERS.
To those of you who have been hurt by the institutional, religious system that people call church, I am truly sorry for the pain you have been caused. And to those who have been abused by a power hungry, manipulating, wolf-in-sheep's-clothing crook, who had the title of pastor, I understand your frustration. But there comes a point in time where we have to get over stuff and realize, there are people all around us who need the love of God, the gospel of Christ, and yes, the fellowship of the Church.
Now please excuse me, I have to get my daily fix from "Christian" television...  |
Bound By Beaulah
Posts: 1001
12/22/11 1:07 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
krista |
| Phillip Johnson wrote: | | It isnot a sin to not go to a building on Sunday morning. Who and what is the church? It's definitely not what happens on Sunday morning or where it happens on Sunday morning. |
Completley disagree. The Church is the Body of believers, wherever that may be. I think we agree on that. But there is the assembling of believers together whether in a building or at a park or house. No matter what you want to call it, Church.....assembly of Believers.....House of God ( It's in the Bible, it's just that you take it out of context of the way in which I and others use it)........whatever, we are to meet corporatly together. And it absolutley matters what happens when we meet. It's where we get training and inspiration and empowerment to be the Church out there.
Is it a sin not to go? Especially if we choose not to? I believe it goes against the Scriptures.
Is it a sin if you can't go ( Work / sick/ A vacation?) no.
But the question asked was, can one be a Christian if they don't go to Church? I haven't seen one yet. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2960
12/22/11 6:27 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
krista |
| Phillip Johnson wrote: | | In my opinion, many people are pushed away from local bodies because of man made rules that are not even Biblical. That is a bigger tragedy, that people exclude others with rules that are made up by people trying to be the Holy Spirit instead of being a witness and example of God's grace. |
I am not trying to provoke you, but that is an old . worn out excuse people give to not go to Church. Of course people have got "burned" at Church, but they also have at Walmart. But they still go back.
Usually your statement is made by someone who does not like Church and wants a way out. It is also made by people who try to make it look like they do the "Church thing" out there. But usually they are full of bologna and do nothing. Not saying you are, but that's a cop out used since the first man that looked for a reason to not go to Church.
It is also a statement by an Un-believer. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2960
12/22/11 6:37 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Quiet Wyatt |
| One big difference is people hold church folks, especially pastors, to higher expectations usually. The whole "I'm treated better by people in the world than people in the church" idea, while perhaps true in some cases, usually misses the important point that we don't have very high expectations for unbelievers, so if they just treat us decently, we're happy. Church folk on the other hand, if they treat us anything less than really, really nice, we get offended. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
12/22/11 6:50 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Bro Bob |
I allowed this thread to get to four pages before I decided to read it. Probably a good thing.
I can't argue with a thing that LINK has said. He has his fundamentals right.
And it is not in disagreement that I say this: I need the gathering together with other believers, and in North Alabama that means you go to church.
But statements like in this next quote make me see painfully how we are going to achieve the great falling away that is prophesied in scripture.
| Quote: | To Link from 4golf
I loved your three replys, good stuff. You asked me if the church you are going to does not do what the Bibles says it should be doing. My answer is ; Find a new church! If you pastor is not a humble man of God and not living what the Word of God says he should be; Vote him out! If your church is just a meeting place a couple says of the week and not doing the work Jesus call His Disciples to do leave! I agree 100% what you said about pentcostals. They do so much wrong; They are the worst when it comes to discipleship, preaching the Word of God.I have said time and time again if you say you have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and all you are doing is talking in tongues and you are not leading people to Jesus, guess what; You don't have the Acts 2 Baptism of the Holy Spirit. If a church is not about the Work of Jesus first and formost it is just a meeting place with a cross on top! I am sick of programs! Keep searching untill you find a church lead by a humble man of God.They are "Very" rare to find today, but don't stop till you find one! Be Blessed |
4golf is not alone in his thinking. He expresses the feelings of many many pastors in the Church of God. Possibly a majority, even. The message is clear, God cannot work except through one man (the man of God?) within his church. All believers (who are not pastors) MUST gain access to their creator through a flesh and blood mortal man who is NOT their equal.
If a church does not have this kind of anointed man leading it, then all the believers must leave, and go find another church who is lead by the right kind of MAN. (Now if this system is to work, wherein do we correct the errant pastor? How do we help him? How do we restore and establish this fallen man to his place amongst the RARE, TRUE men of God?)
Of course, it follows then that if one believer or a few, or half of them don't have this kind of total faith in this ONE MAN who has been appointed over them, then THEY must leave. And if not willingly, then, by God, we will excommunicate them.
This is the quite natural result of creating our own way instead of being obedient to what the creator established in scripture. (Which LINK has effectively proclaimed.)
.........................
I need my brethren. I need good men to point out my error when I make one. That brother may be a teacher, an evangelist, or he might be the custodian. He might even be the pastor! And he might be the lady that counts the money and prepares the deposit.
I would not last long without the fellowship. I would go wrong by myself, and never turn until it was too late.
Forsaking the gathering together would make prey of my soul. It is not of duty, but of need.
4golf, I don't expect you to like this post. I don't expect you to understand it. You can read the words, but you cannot comprehend what you read. If LINK can not get through to you, then I will only make you angry.
............
So to answer the original poster, no, going to church is not required for a christian. But this Christian would never make it alone. My creator didn't design me that way.
Those who eat the fat, and wear the wool and drive away sheep and boast of it will meet that creator one day. And he will demand an answer.
Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
I don't know which grieves me more, the ones who have forsaken the assembly because they fell prey to sin and temptation, or the ones who were wounded and driven away.
It is my prayer that God keep me from temptation, and deliver me from evil, and never let me wound a brother. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
12/22/11 11:44 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Something I noticed... (Response) |
Dean Steenburgh |
| seanr25 wrote: | Most of the responses that were "pro going to church" are from pastors. Now I understand that probably a majority of Acts posters are pastors, but still.... Pastors want people to go to church and will bend and twist scriptures to "prove" to people that Jesus wants us to be in a building labeled "church" in order to grow in our spiritual walk.
Its hogwash, and they are just trying to keep their jobs relevant. My spiritual walk with God has been hampered more in church than outside of it. If the churches of today would act and operate as they should, and the people in them acted as they should, then churches would be a beacon of hope to their communities. I don't want any pastors to think that I am "hating" on them, my dad is a pastor and I love him and respect him. But if we are all honest with ourselves, and read the bible without any preconceived notions, then we can agree that there is NOTHING in the bible about attending church. That is a very American/Western thing to do. What about those people that live in places where it is illegal to attend a Christian church? Are they just going to flake out and turn from Christ because they didn't attend a weekly meeting and give their membership dues, er.. I mean, tithes? I would dare say that their faith in Christ makes most American Christians look like lazy, spoiled children.
If you were offended by anything I wrote, then GOOD! You need to be offended, quit trying to make everyone fit into your little box of religiosity, step out of it yourself and quit drinking the kool-aid. Your walk with Jesus needs to be based on more than following some man-made rules and customs. |
If your spiritual walk has been hampered in church more than outside of church then may I suggest you find a better church! As to your assumption that most on Acts are pastors, I can't say I know nor do I agree but many could be ministers. I could also say that I take offense at your notion that my desire for folks to be ministered to is somehow tied to my vocation, but that is something that you are simply wrong about. In fact most of your whole opinion is tainted a bit as I believe you have an elementary tone to your thoughts. Don't get offended, I'm simply reminding you that many of us do not have such a motive as you suggested & I have something else to share with you.
Going to church is not just an American or western thing to do. In fact Jesus studied all His life to become a Rabbi & their whole function & sole responsibility was intertwined in the temple. You can see that we have a legacy from the examples of Jesus observing the sabbath in the temple & He never told anyone to go out there & become one with God outside the walls of the sanctuary. Yes we are the church as far as human bodies which contain His Spirit, but we should strive to be in fellowship with each other as often as possible for the purpose of sharpening each others iron & encouraging one another in every aspect.
I have been to a few 3rd world countries & I've been to a few where the worship of Christ is frowned upon, but I've never heard one of the people from those places ever tell me that they didn't need to go to church to be a Christian. They long to live like we live & enjoy the freedoms we enjoy but they also face obstacles by living in communist countries & paying the price for their beliefs. They know that they can be a Christian w/out 4 walls & a bible lesson but they long for the fellowship it brings by being together with others who believe like they do.
I have several Russian families in my church & a few years ago when I mentioned not having the Thursday night midweek service due to Thanksgiving they proclaimed in their own words, "Every time we get together for worship it is our Thanksgiving because before we came here to America it was against the law to study the bible in any size group in Russia." Ever since then I have never hindered our people (we have almost 30 different people groups in our fellowship) from worship which they tie closely to their walk with Christ.
The answer is "NO" you do not have to attend church to be a Christian but a Christian who attends a good bible believing fellowship will enjoy spiritual growth & fellowship that cannot be matched as a whole outside of attending church or worship!
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
12/23/11 7:23 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Something I noticed... (Response) |
bradfreeman |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | Going to church is not just an American or western thing to do. |
It's actually a Roman thing, instituted by Constantine.
| Quote: | | ...He never told anyone to go out there & become one with God outside the walls of the sanctuary. |
What? Jesus did most of His preaching and teaching outside the synagogue. As far as "becoming one with God outside the walls of the sanctuary", Jesus taught that He was there whenever and wherever people gathered in His name. In fact, He never taught us to become one with God inside the walls of the sanctuary.
| Quote: | | Yes we are the church as far as human bodies which contain His Spirit, but we should strive to be in fellowship with each other as often as possible for the purpose of sharpening each others iron & encouraging one another in every aspect. |
I absolutely agree with this part. There are incredible benefits to being in intentional relationships with other Christians.
| Quote: | | I have been to a few 3rd world countries & I've been to a few where the worship of Christ is frowned upon, but I've never heard one of the people from those places ever tell me that they didn't need to go to church to be a Christian. |
Wait...you're about to contradict yourself. Here it goes...
| Quote: | | They know that they can be a Christian w/out 4 walls & a bible lesson but they long for the fellowship it brings by being together with others who believe like they do. |
So, they DO believe they can be Christians without going to church?
| Quote: | | I have several Russian families in my church & a few years ago when I mentioned not having the Thursday night midweek service due to Thanksgiving they proclaimed in their own words, "Every time we get together for worship it is our Thanksgiving because before we came here to America it was against the law to study the bible in any size group in Russia." Ever since then I have never hindered our people (we have almost 30 different people groups in our fellowship) from worship which they tie closely to their walk with Christ. |
There is really no question that, culturally, most folks tie church attendance closely to the their walk with Christ. The point is, those who find fellowship in other ways shouldn't be condemned as rebels, heretics, backsliders, etc. You can be a Christian without being part of the institutional church.
The answer is "NO" you do not have to attend church to be a Christian but a Christian who attends a good bible believing fellowship will enjoy spiritual growth & fellowship that cannot be matched as a whole outside of attending church or worship!
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
12/26/11 9:23 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Dean Steenburgh |
| Quote: | | Quote: |
#1 ...He never told anyone to go out there & become one with God outside the walls of the sanctuary. |
What? Jesus did most of His preaching and teaching outside the synagogue. As far as "becoming one with God outside the walls of the sanctuary", Jesus taught that He was there whenever and wherever people gathered in His name. In fact, He never taught us to become one with God inside the walls of the sanctuary.
| Quote: | | #2 I have been to a few 3rd world countries & I've been to a few where the worship of Christ is frowned upon, but I've never heard one of the people from those places ever tell me that they didn't need to go to church to be a Christian. |
Wait...you're about to contradict yourself. Here it goes...
| Quote: | | #3 They know that they can be a Christian w/out 4 walls & a bible lesson but they long for the fellowship it brings by being together with others who believe like they do. |
So, they DO believe they can be Christians without going to church?
| Quote: |
#4 I have several Russian families in my church & a few years ago when I mentioned not having the Thursday night midweek service due to Thanksgiving they proclaimed in their own words, "Every time we get together for worship it is our Thanksgiving because before we came here to America it was against the law to study the bible in any size group in Russia." Ever since then I have never hindered our people (we have almost 30 different people groups in our fellowship) from worship which they tie closely to their walk with Christ. |
|
Lets take these one at a time - #1 I wasn't talking about the ministry location of Jesus' ministry, I was talking about His message to people did not contain 'lone ranger' aspects to it. He never instructed them to grow in God's Spirit & do it outside the 4 walls of this temple/sanctuary.
#2 & #3 & #4 - I change nothing, you merely missed my meaning. The people of 3rd world countries know in their hearts that their walk with God is by faith & they know it doesn't require 4 walls, but how precious it is that they put their very life in danger in order to share fellowship with each other even in the face of a potential death penalty. They don't NEED to go, they choose to go (whereas the debate for this post is sorta like looking for ways to avoid one more obtrusive thing in our busy schedules). Worshiping together for people in 3rd world countries is considered a luxury in certain places. I read on Acts at times where some guys sound like their walk with Christ is all about making it as convenient as possible & go light on the sacrifices. We have it made & very easy to worship collectively but yet we debate it's merit?? Other people in horrible conditions located in 3rd world countries do not have our liberty but I can only imagine their confusion if they knew about this debate/discussion.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
12/27/11 7:34 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bradfreeman |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | The people of 3rd world countries know in their hearts that their walk with God is by faith & they know it doesn't require 4 walls, but how precious it is that they put their very life in danger in order to share fellowship with each other even in the face of a potential death penalty. |
When God created man, He stated everything was "good" except for man to be alone. Relationship is "good".
| Quote: | | They don't NEED to go, they choose to go (whereas the debate for this post is sorta like looking for ways to avoid one more obtrusive thing in our busy schedules). |
I actually hoped it would soften our condemnation of people who find unorthodox ways of coming together. I also hope it would increase our understanding of those who find our current system lacking for various reasons. Among those valid reasons are:
1. We waste incredible amounts of money, time, energy and other resources keeping up facilities and staffing that we use 3 hours/week.
2. The current, non-participatory, focus-on-the-pastor-platform-and-"Sunday-morning-show" system is an unscriptural construct of the Roman empire and does not effectively facilitate relationships. This is why we need pot-luck suppers, fellowship meetings, home-groups, etc. added into the mix--because the one day a week we come together, we don't "come together".
3. Our current way of being "church", in addition to being unscriptural, is becoming increasingly ineffective and irrelevant to our culture anymore. What is portrayed to the public on the airwaves is, by and large, a caricature of God way too fixed on entertainment and money and totally lacking in relationship.
4. Our current system convinces our people that "ministry" is preaching and singing (did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? -- Matt. 7) rather than helping people (For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'--Matt. 25). We "hire" someone to take care of this for us.
| Quote: | | Worshiping together for people in 3rd world countries is considered a luxury in certain places. I read on Acts at times where some guys sound like their walk with Christ is all about making it as convenient as possible & go light on the sacrifices. We have it made & very easy to worship collectively but yet we debate it's merit?? |
Yes, we rightfully debate the merit our current system of collective worship. Why wouldn't we when;
a. Our million dollar buildings are mostly empty and rarely used;
b. We brag that 218 got saved in our church last year, but only 73 are in attendance on Sunday morning;
c. The only ones happy about the way things are going are the ones holding the microphone or on salary;
d. Our "services" are predictable and boring.
| Quote: | | Other people in horrible conditions located in 3rd world countries do not have our liberty but I can only imagine their confusion if they knew about this debate/discussion. |
Those people make incredible "sacrifices"--sacrifices that we don't have currently have to make because of the freedoms we enjoy.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Last edited by bradfreeman on 12/28/11 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
12/28/11 9:27 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Larry Wiley |
Can I continue to live if I eat only one small meal a day?
Probably but I am not going to try it.
_________________
Larry Wiley |
Acts Mod
Posts: 5298
12/28/11 10:00 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Link |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | c. The only ones happy about the way things are going are the ones holding the microphone or on salary; |
_________________
Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
12/29/11 1:28 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bonnie knox |
| Link wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | c. The only ones happy about the way things are going are the ones holding the microphone or on salary; |
|
That seems to be a gross overstatement just based on personal observation. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
12/29/11 1:47 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bradfreeman |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Link wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | c. The only ones happy about the way things are going are the ones holding the microphone or on salary; |
|
That seems to be a gross overstatement just based on personal observation. |
Geez BK -- only "C"? I thought the whole list was overstated!
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
12/29/11 5:17 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bonnie knox |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Link wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | c. The only ones happy about the way things are going are the ones holding the microphone or on salary; |
|
That seems to be a gross overstatement just based on personal observation. |
Geez BK -- only "C"? I thought the whole list was overstated! |
I didn't say "only c." I only said "c." |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
12/29/11 5:37 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bonnie knox |
Now, I COULD address the other ones if I wanted to, but I might get into trouble.
Take D. for example - predictable and boring services. I can see myself getting into all sorts of trouble addressing that. I guess predictable doesn't necessarily HAVE to be boring, but I can tell you with fair certainty what will happen on any given Sunday morning at our church. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
12/29/11 5:46 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bonnie knox |
A. million dollar buildings that are rarely used.
Our sanctuary and gym combined are probably worth a million. We didn't pay that much for it because a lot of the work was done by members, but honestly I look at how much of our budget goes to make payments and I really do wonder if there is not a better way.
We have two services on Sunday, one on Wednesday. An Hispanic church uses our facility on Sunday afternoon. A very small Christian school has started using the educational rooms in our building. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
12/29/11 5:57 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
