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Re: Interesting! |
Truman Smith |
bonnie knox wrote: | Purplebarney wrote: | It's gonna be very interesting to see which side is right on this issue. After all, both sides base their views on "man's" interpretation of scripture. I grew up in the COG and for the past 20 years have been in a non-Pentecostal church so I agree with some points from each side. That is why I can't wait to see who is right. |
That reminds me of something Truman Smith once told Yo Dude (about another issue). Truman told Yo Dude that he would explain it so that Yo Dude would not have to wonder anymore which way was the right way. |
Bonnie I have had to come to the rescue of a few threads at times . I'll do the same now . The BIBLE is VERY plain so I'll just remind the board so that there will never be any doubt as to which side is right , Truman to the rescue.....
ACTS 2:32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Verse 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted,and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost , he hath shed forth this , which ye now see and hear .
Verse 39 For the promise is unto you and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call .
This is the Promise spoken of Joel ... The point is clearly found in the small expression , " which ye now see and hear ". Hey Saints this is Acts Chapter 2... I don't think I need to explain anything any further . God Bless . T |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1073 6/11/11 5:00 pm
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bonnie knox wrote: | Another point in Gradoski's paper is that Jack Hayford called tongues a "heavenly language."
I don't know if Hayford believes that tongues are sometimes in a language that is not human, but I once heard him on TV addressing the fact that there are 6,000 extant human languages, so it would be hard to dismiss something as mere gobbledegook simply because it doesn't sound like a human language to us. He gave the example of a man who had a testimony of speaking in tongues using one syllable. A missionary who heard the testimony said he had ministered to an obscure tribe that spoke that way.
Hayford also said he one gave a message that turned out to be Taiwanese (if I remember correctly) which a Taiwanese seeker heard and found to be a sign that tongues are for today. |
I don't think there is a language called Taiwanese. There are dialects of Chinese spoken in Taiwan that go by another name. I remember him telling a testimony about a 'Kaiwon' Indian tribe, but I don't know how to spell it.
I remember Jack Heyford sharing this testimony back in the 1990's on TBN. Maybe it was in his beauty of spiritual language book.
He was on a plane sitting next to this man. He was an educated man. As they spoke, he found out that the man was from this tribe. He was not a Christian. Jack Heyford offered to mail him a book by CS Lewis and some other materials (a Bible maybe?) The man declined.
Heyford said the Lord impressed upon him to speak to the man in tongues. He said that was uncomfortable, so he told him he was able to speak some words that he thought might be in the man's language. The man said go ahead. He spoke, and he said a few words into speaking in tongues it changed from how he normally spoke in tongues to a language unfamiliar to him. The man said it was not exactly his language, but an older dialect. He was talking about Light coming down from above.
Heyford then explained to him about speaking in tongues, and said that perhaps this had happened because God wanted the man to know about the Light that had come down from above. After this, the man changed his mind and said he wouldn't mind receiving the books. _________________ Link |
Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 6/11/11 10:39 pm
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Truman....... |
Purplebarney |
First of all let me say that I respect your beliefs. Obviously I can see which side you believe. However, those scriptures do NOT prove to me or anyone else that speaking in tongues (the Pentecostal version) is the correct teaching from God's word. I understand that it's your interpretation of scripture but surely you can give us something better to back up your beliefs on this issue. If not then you have a weak argument. Again, I'm not trying to start an argument nor do I mean any disrespect. |
Acts-celerater Posts: 704 6/12/11 12:05 am
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kmann1 |
One thing that I think would be very helpful is to draw on Jesus' many discussions and teaching on this subject. |
Friendly Face Posts: 161 6/12/11 1:02 pm
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Tom, |
bonnie knox |
I had thought of the phrase "tongues of men and of angels." I wouldn't have a problem theologically with unknown tongues being a language that humans don't speak (or even haven't spoken in the past).
I just didn't want to mischaracterize Hayford's position (since I don't know his belief on that particular issue) on the nature of tongues when I related his point about the fact that there are so many human languages. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 6/12/11 2:29 pm
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Re: Truman....... |
Truman Smith |
[quote="Purplebarney"]First of all let me say that I respect your beliefs. Obviously I can see which side you believe. However, those scriptures do NOT prove to me or anyone else that speaking in tongues (the Pentecostal version) is the correct teaching from God's word. I understand that it's your interpretation of scripture but surely you can give us something better to back up your beliefs on this issue. If not then you have a weak argument. Again, I'm not trying to start an argument nor do I mean any disrespect.[/quote ]
barny I appreciate you posting BUT you speak on My weak argument . Now THAT is funny for your points are very very weak. If I had no better argument than what you posted I would never have answered . I took for granted that perhaps we had the same understandings about how to determine what the Bible states . I gave Book , chapter and verse , which you did not understand . I will adress this later . Peter spoke of what the audiance saw and heard , now he was only talking about ( now I'll type this slowly so you can read it )about what had taken place on the day of Pentecost.
Tell me how you handle this statement . " WE accept the whole Bible Rightly divided , with the New Testament as our only rule for church government and lifestyle ".
I gave Scriptures and you gave nothing . For you had nothing to give .
I read on another post of your's that you knew both sides of this discussion . If you were in favor of my"SIDE" how could you , " how could you give us something better to back up your beliefs on this issue "?
I think you will tuck tail and run .
Now if you want to discuse this issue with Scriptures then We will need to set some guidelines, You will surprise me if you can talk Scriptures . Now Neither do I want to argue. God Bless . T |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1073 6/13/11 11:02 am
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Rick Mack |
kmann1 wrote: | One thing that I think would be very helpful is to draw on Jesus' many discussions and teaching on this subject. |
But since Christ is the word made flesh and since Paul had direct revelation from Christ, don't you think your underhanded suggestion is much like Swiss cheese
Tongues being a sign to those that don't believe...I suppose they would be for you |
Friendly Face Posts: 386 6/13/11 1:08 pm
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Patrick, |
poppy |
I think you will find more support for tongues at Liberty than you may think. I was interviewing Elmer Townes a few years ago for a program I was going through. He asked my denomiational affliation and I told him I was Churchof God, Cleveland. He went on to describe a fine working relationship with several on campus students. One thing he said was they had a female student that was COG who loved to shout during the Chapel services. He said "We just made her a spot and let her shout." He was very receptive to a pentecostal grad student. I was very pleasantly surprised. You probably will be too. |
Friendly Face Posts: 316 6/13/11 1:56 pm
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Cessationism vs Pentecostalism today |
MS7777 |
here is an outstanding article that clearly references and gives answers to the cessationist viewpoint vs the Pentecostal viewpoint that tongues, et al are for today. This is from the AG (by the way we never say a O g) ministers quarterly Enrichment . I think you might find it helpful and enlightening. http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/200703/200703_128_Cessation.cfm
These paragraphs highlight the text:
A final Pauline text that has possibly been the most neglected of all appears in 2 Corinthians 3:3–11. In this passage, the apostle is comparing the splendor of the dispensation of the law with that of the dispensation of the Spirit. He argues, “Now if the dispensation of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such splendor that the Israelites could not look at Moses’ face because of its brightness, fading as this was, will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendor? For if there was splendor in the dispensation of condemnation, the dispensation of righteousness must far exceed it in splendor. … For if what faded away came with splendor, what is permanent must have much more splendor” (2 Corinthians 3:7–9,11, RSV, italics added).
Paul draws several interesting parallels between the two dispensations. The only one of concern in the present discussion, however, is the distinction between the temporary or “fading” splendor of the dispensation of the law with the greater splendor of the dispensation of the Spirit, which he says is “permanent.” Again, Paul gives evidence of an eschatology/pneumatology that views the baptism in the Spirit, and the gifts that this brings, as being permanent fixtures in the church until the return of Christ.
Based on the statements of Peter and Paul, we can conclude that if there ever was an Age of the Apostles, the church must still be in it.
Be Blessed! AND be, being FILLED with the Holy Spirit TODAY! _________________ Acts 1:8 |
Acts-celerater Posts: 725 6/15/11 1:01 pm
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What is the difference? |
theedmister |
Eddie Robbins wrote: | Just in case.....because SO many people assume....Andy is NOT Southern Baptist and neither is North Point....not that there's anything wrong with being Southern Baptist. |
I have read and listened to a lot of Andy Stanley material including attending many catalysts conferences. He is one of my favorite authors but I was just wondering what is the difference between Andy Stanley and Southern Baptist.
I have always assumed he was just without the affiliation. He makes statements toward Southern Baptist. Anyway just wondering. |
Friendly Face Posts: 231 6/15/11 8:45 pm
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Re: My essay includes: Is speaking in tongues still valid to |
theedmister |
p5harri wrote: | I'm attending Liberty University finishing my B.S. and this semester I'm taking Theology 201.
It's been a great learning so far. However this week I have to complete an essay on Spiritual gifts and specifically on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
One of the specific questions I must answer is :Is speaking in tongues still valid today?
Should be an interesting critique for me I'm sure.
Didn't want this post to turn into a hard or serious discussion, just thought my Pentecostal background will make this essay a little interesting.
Patrick |
Might be a strange question but I was wondering why you would be attending Liberty University which seems clearly to be Baptist and then write this essay. What is the benefit. If they teach against or don't believe they you believe why not attend where they do believe the way you believe?
What are you trying to achieve? An honest inquiry. |
Friendly Face Posts: 231 6/15/11 8:53 pm
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The answer: |
Randy Johnson |
Is the Holy Spirit still valid for today?
This is the answer because speaking in tongues is nothing less than the Holy Spirit providing the vocabulary with which you pray and praise God instead of your human mind.
So, if the Holy Spirit is still valid for today, the tongues are still valid for today. _________________ Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 6/15/11 10:23 pm
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Re: My essay includes: Is speaking in tongues still valid to |
p5harri |
theedmister wrote: | p5harri wrote: | I'm attending Liberty University finishing my B.S. and this semester I'm taking Theology 201.
It's been a great learning so far. However this week I have to complete an essay on Spiritual gifts and specifically on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
One of the specific questions I must answer is :Is speaking in tongues still valid today?
Should be an interesting critique for me I'm sure.
Didn't want this post to turn into a hard or serious discussion, just thought my Pentecostal background will make this essay a little interesting.
Patrick |
Might be a strange question but I was wondering why you would be attending Liberty University which seems clearly to be Baptist and then write this essay. What is the benefit. If they teach against or don't believe they you believe why not attend where they do believe the way you believe?
What are you trying to achieve? An honest inquiry. |
Probably because the Biblical education at Liberty is as academically sound as any other school I could attend and complete my degree online.
The essay questions and the parameters I have to answer it in were dictated by the professor, I was not given a lot of latitude into what I could or could no say.
In fact, the instructor limited the answer to expounding on what "perfect" means in 1 Corinthians 13:10.
I actually finished the essay, nothing earth shattering, just one paragraph to answer the question about tongues. Had a 800 word limit and that was to answer 8 questions, the one on tongues being the last one.
Patrick _________________ We are beating the bushes for mice and the lions are tearing us apart.
Last edited by p5harri on 6/16/11 1:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1702 6/16/11 12:58 am
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error |
p5harri |
del _________________ We are beating the bushes for mice and the lions are tearing us apart. |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1702 6/16/11 1:41 am
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Re: My essay includes: Is speaking in tongues still valid to |
Scooter |
p5harri wrote: |
In fact, the instructor limited the answer to expounding on what "perfect" means in 1 Corinthians 13:10.
Patrick |
Response: I've always looked at that as Peter's "new earth" or God's completed plan for us.
How did you explain it? |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1741 6/16/11 11:51 am
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bonnie knox |
I would like to know, too, how you defined "perfect." I think some cessationists define it as when the scripture was completed (which doesn't make sense to me at all). |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 6/16/11 1:37 pm
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Scooter |
bonnie knox wrote: | I think some cessationists define it as when the scripture was completed (which doesn't make sense to me at all). |
Response: I agree. Makes no sense but then again what's sense when you are trying to establish doctrine. |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1741 6/16/11 1:44 pm
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p5harri |
I found 2 interesting ideas about what " perfect" is.
I will post my essay answer later this evening.
Working nights this week in Dothan, Al. _________________ We are beating the bushes for mice and the lions are tearing us apart. |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1702 6/16/11 4:35 pm
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Re: My essay includes: Is speaking in tongues still valid to |
Poimen |
Scooter wrote: | p5harri wrote: |
In fact, the instructor limited the answer to expounding on what "perfect" means in 1 Corinthians 13:10.
Patrick |
Response: I've always looked at that as Peter's "new earth" or God's completed plan for us.
How did you explain it? |
I too look forward to Patrick's answer. Personally I have always viewed that as referring to the return of Jesus for the church, and by extension glorification -- our bodily resurrection/transformation like unto His glorious body at His appearing. _________________ Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5657 6/16/11 5:47 pm
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Re: My essay includes: Is speaking in tongues still valid to |
p5harri |
Poimen wrote: | Scooter wrote: | p5harri wrote: |
In fact, the instructor limited the answer to expounding on what "perfect" means in 1 Corinthians 13:10.
Patrick |
Response: I've always looked at that as Peter's "new earth" or God's completed plan for us.
How did you explain it? |
I too look forward to Patrick's answer. Personally I have always viewed that as referring to the return of Jesus for the church, and by extension glorification -- our bodily resurrection/transformation like unto His glorious body at His appearing. |
Here's my answer:
* Please note I was limited by the word count as to how much I could write. This was the last of eight seperate questions on Pneumatology. I tried my best to write from the head and heart.
In short I agree with both Poimen and Scooter.
In understanding 1 Corinthians 13, the word “perfect” in verse 10 has come to mean different things to different people. Some have interpreted the word “perfect” to represent Jesus or the canon of scripture. In research, I could find no clear consensus from Biblical scholars as to the exact object and meaning of “perfect.” However, when looking to the Greek lexicon it simply means, “Brought to its end or finished wanting nothing necessary to completeness.” There is no gender assigned to teleios, this would seem to leave out Jesus as the meaning. When looking at the argument for it representing the canon of scripture, the Corinthians’ in the context of this statement would not have thought of “Perfect” being the canon of scripture. In addition, knowledge has not faded away; scholars understand more about scripture as they seek to understand the context of the original writing of the Bible. Therefore, “perfect” can be best understood from verse 12. Perfection will not come until I see Jesus face to face.
Thanks
Patrick _________________ We are beating the bushes for mice and the lions are tearing us apart.
Last edited by p5harri on 6/16/11 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1702 6/16/11 8:48 pm
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