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The NT is full of examples of where Jesus healed people. |
caseyleejones |
Did not Jesus pray they will on earth as it is in heaven. Will there be sick folk in heaven?
Lastly, the man came to Jesus and said if you are willing, you can make me whole. Jesus said I am Willing.
I must see things different. I just see healing wrapped up through and through the NT with not once ounce of evidence or scripture saying otherwise.
Why didnt Jesus or Paul at least once, JUST ONCE, say oh well, Gods will was not to heal you. I am asking for just one incident where God felt it was good for someone to be sick. For every one you find, I will give you 20 examples or scriptures that say contrary. A 20:1, cant beat that challenge. |
Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11798 4/5/06 12:23 pm
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Re: The NT is full of examples of where Jesus healed people. |
Porpoise Driven Neptune |
caseyleejones wrote: | Did not Jesus pray they will on earth as it is in heaven. Will there be sick folk in heaven?
Lastly, the man came to Jesus and said if you are willing, you can make me whole. Jesus said I am Willing.
I must see things different. I just see healing wrapped up through and through the NT with not once ounce of evidence or scripture saying otherwise.
Why didnt Jesus or Paul at least once, JUST ONCE, say oh well, Gods will was not to heal you. I am asking for just one incident where God felt it was good for someone to be sick. For every one you find, I will give you 20 examples or scriptures that say contrary. A 20:1, cant beat that challenge. |
Casey, you didn't answer my last post. Where is that Scripture that says it is always God's will to heal?
By the way, if it were 20:1 or even 1,000,000:1 - then that one would prove that it isn't always God's will to heal, wouldn't it? |
Acts-celerater Posts: 969 4/5/06 12:35 pm
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Re: The NT is full of examples of where Jesus healed people. |
stp89 |
Porpoise Driven Neptune wrote: |
By the way, if it were 20:1 or even 1,000,000:1 - then that one would prove that it isn't always God's will to heal, wouldn't it? |
Porp- let's don't mess up a good debate by trying to interject logic k?
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Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1248 4/5/06 12:41 pm
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No Scripture promises Divine Health on earth |
Anakrino |
In fact Paul declares just the opposite:
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
We have the firstfruits of the Atonement, spiritual salvation, and we wait for the redemption of the body. Until then, if we live long enough, we will grow old, get sick (aging is classified as a disease of the blood) and eventually die.
I would love to hear Cassey's interpretation of this passage in Romans 8. _________________ The way of Salvation is simple, but it is not easy. |
Friendly Face Posts: 304 4/5/06 1:18 pm
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So when did we fail to follow the example of Jesus? |
caseyleejones |
Are these not examples for us to live by. Also, how is Romans 8 saying that Gods will is to have some sick? If you look up imfirmites it is properly translated weaknesses.
If scripture were 1000:1 for Gods healing, why could we not expect the same. Say...1000 healed to every one. But no, we take the one verse as the magic bullet and apply it to the masses.
By the way akrino, if you want to act juvenile in this discussion, consider starting a post more age appropriate. |
Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11798 4/5/06 1:31 pm
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I have never heard until this board that the aging process |
caseyleejones |
is sickness? |
Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11798 4/5/06 1:40 pm
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Re: So when did we fail to follow the example of Jesus? |
Porpoise Driven Neptune |
caseyleejones wrote: |
By the way akrino, if you want to act juvenile in this discussion, consider starting a post more age appropriate. |
I don't always agree with everything Akrino posts, but I don't see anything in his posts that is juvenile. |
Acts-celerater Posts: 969 4/5/06 1:44 pm
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I was referring to his last line. There was girl named |
caseyleejones |
harryvol on the last board that would intentionally do this. However, most usually ignored her. |
Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11798 4/5/06 1:59 pm
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Any reference besides the Garden?? |
Bulldawgbishop |
I was simply going to point out that Jesus instructed us to pray..THY Kingdom Come THY will be done....of course I believe in healing and believe it is God's will to heal....however...the mere fact that so many GODLY and FAITH - FILLED believers have died of sickness shows us that apparently it isn't God's sovereign will to heal everyone at all times...I know this is "deep"...but it's all I have time to post...how many people have you prayed for who weren't healed or worse yet died....where was your faith?? Where was THEIR faith....who didn't have faith...or not enough faith or.....now how much faith does it take...how many have to believe??....I gotta stop I'm crossing my own eyes. |
Acts-celerater Posts: 755 4/5/06 2:48 pm
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Like the woman who was 118........ |
RaceForTheCure |
What would have been the best way to pray for my 75 year old mother who'd had a stroke and had senile dementia? I often thought it was like handing God a grocery list when praying for her. Even though it wasn't easy we prayed for her to be released from her suffering; to be whole again. She died. And now she is released from her suffering and is whole again and I thank God for that. Was she healed? I think so but some would probably disagree. _________________ I sing because I'm happy,
I sing because I'm free,
His eye is on the sparrow,
And I know He watches me
Get to know me and my wonderful family.
Rona
http://www.picasaweb.google.com/facesofwls |
Acts Mod Posts: 2135 4/5/06 3:33 pm
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Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" |
notwanghere |
Sickness, like death is a result of the fall. The effects of which will not be broken until we are glorified. God "miraculously" heals to accomplish his purpose.
John said, "But these are written that you might believe." As wonderful as it would be to believe it is always God's will to heal, such is not the case. Paul makes it abundantly plain that God did not see fit to remove his physical infirmity.
I believe we should always pray fervently for healing. We are instructed to do so. I also recognize that the failure of healing always to occur reflects neither on the faith of the ill individual, or the person praying. God is sovereign! |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1794 4/5/06 3:39 pm
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let's study the Bible a little more, Casey .. |
Rafael D Martinez |
caseyleejones wrote: | in the garden, where else do you see it.
My point is this. Do you pray Gods protection over a trip and end with if it be thy will? As if maybe his will is for you to get into an accident. Are you willing to accept the fact that maybe God wants me to get into an accident and get maimed. Or, God bless this food if its your will. NO, the idea is absurd.
It is not until we come to healing that we tack on those lovely words. |
I guess you were'nt considering the Scripture I shared. Try this one ..
James 4:13-17
3 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
(sounds like someone's speaking some serious stuff .. James has a little word to drop into y'uns spirits)
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
(now watch this ..)
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
(Don't you turn that channel now .. listen! .. )
16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
(What is this but the proud presumption that you can SPEAK and it will happen? HUH?)
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
(HOOO Glory! .. at last, the truth finally comes out .. this Faith stuff takes you farther than you wanna go and makes ya PAY .. ah, I wish SOMEBODY would help me preach here, HAH .. It will MAKE YOU PAY MORE than you ever wanted to fork out .. )
Pray about Casey. That'll preach anywhere anytime anyhow.
It's the Word. Poke a hole in that if you can, brother. You'll only hurt yourself further. Stop while you can.
agape
rafael _________________ www.spiritwatch.org
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16
These are trying times. Everyone's trying something and getting caught. The Church Lady, 1987 |
Acts-dicted Posts: 7766 4/6/06 8:47 pm
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Brother Rafael, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit...... |
caseyleejones |
regardless
I look at that scripture and I cannot see how God would desire that you be sick. In fact, I do not see sickness in your bold print. I will attempt to reread it in other translations and see if anything is different. So I will make an attempt.
Does it not seem strange that you climb over hundreds of scriptures to find that one that will prove your point? Then, instead of looking at the numerous scriptures on healing, we will choose to follow the one. Or, could it be that we let our circumstances dictate how we interpret the word.
I would honestly ask this. No argument or sarcasm here. But, if you truly believe its Gods will for you to be sick and die of sickness, then why do you go to the doctor.
I would ask this of anybody and maybe thats my logical side coming out. Why do you seek any type of medical treatment if you believe that its Gods will for you to be sick or even die? |
Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11798 4/6/06 9:08 pm
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Let me end this way since I started the post in regards |
caseyleejones |
to people tacking on those five words for sickness.
Years ago I had three physical issues that I had. Whenever people tacked on those five words for the prayer of faith it bugged me because I saw it as a hail-Mary prayer where people did not get down and seek Gods will.
I actually prayed long and hard regarding these three issues. I know in my heart God wants me well. However, in the intense seeking, God showed me that the 2 issues I had were a result of certain foods I was taking in. Furthermore, if I corrected these issues, my body would be corrected. One of these issues had to do with my high consumption of caffeine. FOr the average person, nothing would happen, but for me......it messed me up. He also showed me that eventually the third issue would be resolved in which I was taking meds.
I adjusted these two and they were corrected. And within months God took care of the third.
I guess I have seen people use those five words in a five minute(or less) prayer and it seemed like an easy way out than to seek God for hours and fasting.
Oh well, thats how I see it. No big deal. |
Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11798 4/6/06 9:25 pm
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Re: Brother Rafael, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit...... |
Pastor Gary |
caseyleejones wrote: | Why do you seek any type of medical treatment if you believe that its Gods will for you to be sick or even die? |
It is God's will for every one of us to die, eventually. What's your point?? _________________ I reserve the right to own my words and thoughts without edits. |
Acts Mod Posts: 3530 4/6/06 9:41 pm
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Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" |
TheoloJohn |
I always encourage people to pray for divine healing, and I also believe that even if we die it is ultimately God's will to heal--when we receive our glorified bodies.
At that time, this corruptible, mortal flesh and blood of ours will be forever changed into the likeness of Christ's glorified body, all due to the benefits of the New Covenant.
Since 1 Peter says "by his stripes ye were healed," I candidly admit that I don't fully understand why some aren't healed, except for the fact that we have not yet received our glorified, perfect bodies that will never grow old, get sick or die. The WoF position, if taken to its logical end, would have us believe that those who die do so because of their unbelief or ignorance of the Word (which includes all of the original apostles, among many others).
I've known several people who apparently had great faith who still died as a result of disease or sickness.
One thing I will agree with you on, casey: I certainly agree that we need to know the will of God in every situation. That really is a big part of what true prayer is, asking God to reveal to us His will, so that we will know how to pray and act in the situation in light of His will.
I don't think we have to attach, "If it be thy will" to our prayers to be appropriate. Usually I will simply ask God to touch and heal the person. There's no reason to add, "if it be thy will" necessarily, though I would think it would be well understood that God certainly can do as He pleases. _________________ "Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2160 4/6/06 11:46 pm
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Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" |
notwanghere |
TheoloJohn wrote: | I always encourage people to pray for divine healing, and I also believe that even if we die it is ultimately God's will to heal--when we receive our glorified bodies.
At that time, this corruptible, mortal flesh and blood of ours will be forever changed into the likeness of Christ's glorified body, all due to the benefits of the New Covenant.
Since 1 Peter says "by his stripes ye were healed," I candidly admit that I don't fully understand why some aren't healed, except for the fact that we have not yet received our glorified, perfect bodies that will never grow old, get sick or die. The WoF position, if taken to its logical end, would have us believe that those who die do so because of their unbelief or ignorance of the Word (which includes all of the original apostles, among many others).
I've known several people who apparently had great faith who still died as a result of disease or sickness.
One thing I will agree with you on, casey: I certainly agree that we need to know the will of God in every situation. That really is a big part of what true prayer is, asking God to reveal to us His will, so that we will know how to pray and act in the situation in light of His will.
I don't think we have to attach, "If it be thy will" to our prayers to be appropriate. Usually I will simply ask God to touch and heal the person. There's no reason to add, "if it be thy will" necessarily, though I would think it would be well understood that God certainly can do as He pleases. |
Great post Theo! |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1794 4/7/06 12:49 am
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Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" |
curly |
We don't pray save this poor sinner if it be thy will. Why not? Because we know His will is to save whosoever comes to Him. You guys can pray however you want to. When I pray for the lost to be saved or the sick to be healed I pray God's Word over them which is His will. I use my faith when praying and if God wants to call the person home then so be it! Amen! |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1754 4/7/06 1:18 am
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I think Raf found the magic bullet! |
Porpoise Driven Neptune |
Raf's Scripture (well, actually James' Scripture) says:
Quote: | Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:15 |
Now, that will does not prove at all whether it is God's will to heal everyone or not. But what if it is God's will to heal someone at a different time from when you're praying for them?
Think of the crippled man at the gate Beautiful. He had lain there for every day for years. He was there when Jesus was in the Temple - but he didn't get healed. He was there the day Jesus was crucified & the curtain ripped in two - but he didn't get healed. Then his day came - and God used the healing to produce great growth in the early church.
Also, in Revelation 2:10 we find the church at Smyrna being promised deliverance from their suffering - after 10 days. God had a day set when it was His will to deliver them. But if someone was praying for their release after 8 days then it would not have been God's will for that to happen - at least not then.
Now, I don't tack "if it be your will" onto prayers. But, in the light of Raf's Scripture, its going to take a pretty clear Scriptural directive for me to start criticizing those who do. And the Scriptural basis provided by Casey so far doesn't come close to proving that sickness is somehow a special case that is exempted from James 4:15.
If you are going to criticize someone for obeying a Scripture verse that specifically says to use those words, then you are going to need a verse that says something like, "When you pray, don't you dare say Thy will be done" and we all know here ain't no such Scripture (unless its in the Readers Digest version). |
Acts-celerater Posts: 969 4/7/06 4:28 am
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Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" |
TheoloJohn |
Dear Brother Porpoise,
Just to clarify, if need be: I definitely did not and do not condemn anyone who may feel compelled to tack "if it be thy will" onto their prayers. I do, however, think adding that phrase often tends to unnecessarily add doubt to prayer.
Though of course we are to pray according to the will of God, Scripture itself often reveals that God's specific will for a situation is sometimes changed as a result of believing prayer. King Hezekiah's sickness unto death, Moses' intercession for rebellious Israel, and Nineveh's repentance at Jonah's judgment-without-the-possibility-of-mercy message all resulted in divine repentance; that is, God actually changed his mind because somebody prayed.
Blessings,
John _________________ "Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006 |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2160 4/8/06 8:33 pm
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