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What do you feel causes the fear in the COG?
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Post What do you feel causes the fear in the COG? doyle
Tom Sterbens made an excellent post concerning a "Spirit of fear" in the COG. http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?t=26287 What do you as a COG minister or member feel causes that fear?

The Bible says, "God has not given us a spirit of fear..." so we know it didn't come from God.

I've shared before how right after Communism fell in Russia I was part of a group of men who went there to minister. We met men who had been in prison for over 20 years for preaching the Gospel and for refusing to allow their church to be registered with the government.

We met people who had been placed in insane asylums because they refused to stop preaching and history shares that over 30 million Russians were killed by their own government to keep Communism in power.

But I never saw in them as much fear as I've seen in some COG ministers. I've often wondered why there is so much fear in the COG. Sure, there are some guys in the COG who will work to destroy your good name and ministry if you disagree with them.

But our nation was built and our freedom gained by men who knew they could get hurt but they stood up anyway. COG guys will complain and even when they know things have to change, they are terrified to even share their opinion.

We live in America where there is freedom of religion and freedom of speech and some of our COG guys are terrified to share it if they have a different opinion than an AB or headquarters official.

There isn't much future for a group that claims to be based on love but so terrifies it's own people until they area afraid to share their heart.

I've met people from all kinds of denominations and never, ever have I encountered the fear found in the COG. Where does that fear come from?

Doyle
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2/8/08 10:47 am


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Post Just my take Telecaster
Some of it is justified fear because of the way some have behaved in office. Still I think a great percentage of it is fear from insecurity. Fear starts somewhere and it usually doesn't start on a large scale if it is a progressive fear. Before you and I knew to be scared or to at least be alert for burglars and so forth, as kids we feared the boogey man and villains from TV shows. Some folks never got over child like fears and they've developed into insecurities.

I'm not suggesting our COG ministers are reacting from a time when they hid under the covers from the ghosts from Ghostbusters. What I am suggesting is that the same progression fear takes in children to adults, is the same pattern that usually introuduces itself into our lives. Many times we fear other people will let us down because we know ourselves have let people down. Sometimes we fear progress can't be made because we haven't seen any progress in our local area of ministry. Sometimes we fear the COG is about to fall apart because we feel our very own ministries are falling apart from week to week.

I agree with Tom that many have a spirit of fear upon them. I cannot include myself in that category however. I do not fear, but I hope. I do not fret, I pray. I do not doubt, but I trust. Surely we've all been there before, but when did God give us the red light to stop? Surely things have happened that have slammed us all down from time to time, but the marvelous thing about God is that He never leaves us there. We're destined to overcome one way or the other. When we look at it that way, really, what is there to fear?
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2/8/08 11:25 am


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Post From an outsider... Phil Hoover
who has seen the "inside" work:

1) Too many good people, who have given EVERYTHING to the denomination, have been abused, refused, and downright mistreated....I've seen it with my own eyes....and it's been done in the name of "ministry".....I could call names, but I won't.

2) Too many people have seen what we called FWA in the military: Fraud, Waste and Abuse....too many tithe dollars have been wasted, and many times for no good reason.

3) Too many people have been viewed and treated as "disposables." People are valuable...and must be treated as such.
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2/8/08 11:35 am


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Post my two cents Bowtat
Our denomination is clouded by the fear of the unknown. We see all over our denomination were men are working outside of the Assembly Minutes and are allowed to do whatever they want, yet those same men use the Minutes to correct the rest of us.

We have a church in our denomination that is being pastored by a minister not licensed (J. Franklin) in the Church of God who also pastors a non-denominational church. What is going on?

We have Bush selling us fear in Iraq, Republicans and Demarcates selling us fear of each other, and we have a GO selling us that if we cut the tot all of our retired ministers are going to be on the street.

I have no clue anymore how things are run, and that scares me. We are being told by good men in Cleveland that we can’t cut the Tot and yet they show us no proof. I post under a user name and not my own because if the word got out that I post on this site my hopes of becoming a head pastor would be hurt, because I know there is a guy in our state who reports who is posting here and what is being said. Petty, that is all I can say about that.

Fear is being expected to live by rules that the leaders don’t follow themselves. Open the book, don’t put popular non-licensed ministers in Churches of God, and make it public how each Bishop chooses pastors and what list of men/ladies he is choosing from.

Do all of these and my fear will go down.
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2/8/08 11:47 am


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Post Without going into an entire dissertation.... LeBronBleu
Do your own exegesis; you'll see this is scripturally sound as well as denominationally correct.

The fear we see in the church of God is best compared in light of the scripture regarding Fathers and their children.

Fear (in the negative sense) is brought on by only two things:
a. Arrogance
b. Disobedience

For one to be humbled in the sight of the Lord in truth is to not be be what we have over us in leadership.

For another to be at peace we must be in total absolution of our actions. We fail to see that one stone sets off the avalanche. Acting as though our hidden sins do not count is seed for the emotional abuse that results in fear.

I know I haven't spelled this all out and perhaps there may be more definitive nouns but my response is to simplify and redirect our answers to the most likely place.

All other "fears" are but subjects under the afore mentioned "heads".

I wonder sometimes... Are our attempts to vary every scriptural answer nothing more than broadening the scope of responsibility?

In the Beginning: GOD
In the beginning was the WORD
We Preach and teach just how simple the plan of salvation, but Pharasee's make it an unjust and complicated maze.

I choose to believe in a Gospel of simplicity. Not a gospel that has "qualifiers" for every circumstance and situation. Yes; it is One size fits All.

Listen folk.... If Jesus couldn't change the ways of man (as a whole) why do you childishly think that a righteous change can come to the COG through anyone less??

If you enjoy politicking... Good-old-boy, back yard dealin, Lying, cheatin, stealin, and back-stabbin... then by all means.... Stay in the COG. I DO NOT IMPLY THE WHOLE ARE LIKE THIS. I only remind you it is there in ample abundance.

However... If you have come to the realization that it's not for you... then get out. The ulcers and sleeplessness is not worth it.

Fear... will ultimately be what puts Satan on his knee's before God in a VAIN attempt to illustrate a humility that was never there.

fine' for now
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2/8/08 7:29 pm


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Post R. Keith Whitt
Telecaster wrote:

Quote:
I agree with Tom that many have a spirit of fear upon them. I cannot include myself in that category however. I do not fear, but I hope. I do not fret, I pray. I do not doubt, but I trust.


Then why the pseudonym?? Sorry, couldn't resist.

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2/8/08 8:02 pm


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Post John Haywood
i am 67 years old and i am not fearfull. this is god's church and if men mess it up they will answer. it has gone through so bad times in the past and i am sure it will make it through again . anyway my name is in the lamb book of life and that is all that matters in the end. been in the church of god since 1959 been a minister for 47 years i have seen so the good and the bad Acts-celerater
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2/8/08 9:53 pm


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Post Bowtat... res0515
We have many people pastoring churches who are not licensed in the COG. This has been a normal practice for years. I pastored my first church, for a year and a half before being licensed. The only reason it is even being talked about now is because JF is a high profile person. And the fact of the matter is the church in California is growing. Acts Enthusiast
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2/8/08 10:04 pm


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Post Telecaster
R. Keith Whitt wrote:
Telecaster wrote:

Quote:
I agree with Tom that many have a spirit of fear upon them. I cannot include myself in that category however. I do not fear, but I hope. I do not fret, I pray. I do not doubt, but I trust.


Then why the pseudonym?? Sorry, couldn't resist.

Keith


Being you couldn't resist, I'll answer your question for you. I don't use my real name because I want the freedom to express my opinions without the backlash that comes. That's not operating in fear. That's using wisdom.
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2/8/08 10:24 pm


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Post Fisher
I think the fear is based on no control, no recourse, and having you life in the hands of individuals who may be more concerned over their careers than your life.

It is the reason some get sweaty palms while flying. Having no control over your life can do that to you. I was told by a long time Pastor that every CoG Pastor can expect to be "moved" once in his life. That is scary!

I really believe most AB's care deeply about their men! But all it takes is one yahoo, and believe me they are out there!

My life, Church, ministry and mental health have all been affected greatly by the arrogance of one AB. Thankfully he is the exception. But if in their arrogance they make irrational decisions your life and future have been set by them!
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2/8/08 10:56 pm


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Post RE: Telecaster "I want the freedom to express my opinio Matt Boyd
Telecaster wrote:
R. Keith Whitt wrote:
Telecaster wrote:

Quote:
I agree with Tom that many have a spirit of fear upon them. I cannot include myself in that category however. I do not fear, but I hope. I do not fret, I pray. I do not doubt, but I trust.


Then why the pseudonym?? Sorry, couldn't resist.

Keith


Being you couldn't resist, I'll answer your question for you. I don't use my real name because I want the freedom to express my opinions without the backlash that comes. That's not operating in fear. That's using wisdom.


Telecaster,
Isn't that definition of fear? I am not trying to offend you. But, that doesn't make any sense to me. It is certainly not the way your supposed to biblically confront your brother if he offend's you.
Maybe it is easier for me because I am a military chaplain. I can use my name and no COG official cares... Or maybe they do.

But I cannot imagine any warrior for Christ trying to avoid backlash and calling it wisdom. I have faced life threatening danger in a Muslim country for the cause of Christ and will not avoid backlash or the fear of man for speaking the truth in love. Help me understand how avoiding backlash is wisdom.
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2/9/08 1:06 am


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Post OK sheepdogandy
Where are the "company men" now?

If I had begun this thread, there would have been an avalanche of criticism and accusation.

Come on boys.

Just because DD began this thread does not mean you all can't jump in.

Come on OTCP, Jason, Volfan101 and all you "other" guys.

Let's stand up for "Cleveland and the right."

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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2/9/08 10:23 am


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Post Re: OK wilburt
sheepdogandy wrote:
Where are the "company men" now?

If I had begun this thread, there would have been an avalanche of criticism and accusation.

Come on boys.

Just because DD began this thread does not mean you all can't jump in.

Come on OTCP, Jason, Volfan101 and all you "other" guys.

Let's stand up for "Cleveland and the right."

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


I'm not one of the mentioned company men, however, I do read your posts. I do not want this to sound like an attack, it's my observation. You were COG, you got hurt and now you're not...but you want to hang out around us and tell us how much better it is where you are and what we need to do and how we should follow your lead. This probably isn't how it's intended to appear, but it is how it appears to me. You could have stayed, one man who is no longer an AB more than likely messed you over...I'm sorry for that...really!

COG is quite imperfect, needs to change and will only do so when local churches determine to do so...I long for that change!

I also long for you to be healed and to no longer look for opportunities to gig those that have chosen to remain!
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2/9/08 10:50 am


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Post Dear Wilburt sheepdogandy
I'm just making an observation.

I'm not about "giging" anyone.

This is not the official C/G discussion board.

It's DD's board.

As much as some would love for me to fade away.

As long as I abide by DD's rules.

I can play.
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2/9/08 3:29 pm


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Post Re: Dear Wilburt wilburt
sheepdogandy wrote:
I'm just making an observation.

I'm not about "giging" anyone.

This is not the official C/G discussion board.

It's DD's board.

As much as some would love for me to fade away.

As long as I abide by DD's rules.

I can play.


As I began my statement, my comments were not an attack, I most certainly don't want you to fade away or leave, not at all. I recognizer that it isn't a COG board and that you're playing by the rules...so

I repeat that it appears that you have been gigging, you say you aren't so we'll leave it at that. But, my observation comes as you are commenting on COG issues, sharing what you think we ought to do and how we should do it, and often reminding us of how bad centralized government is and how your church has found a government that works...perhaps I'm misreading and if so I must assuredly offer a heartfelt apology that I pray you will accept.

It would make me happy if we moved to a decentralized government and I assure you I see many of our needs, by no means am I a company man that bleeds blue and gold, there are no COG shields tattooed on my body, and I assure you that you offer much to us that we can learn from...just sometimes I get the feeling we're being smugged a bit...maybe I just need to read differently or not post what I think on matters such as these!

Because I absolutely don't want to be included in the list of those that have wounded or offended you, of the religious crowd singing Church of God is right hallelujah to the lamb!

Thanks!
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2/9/08 4:32 pm


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Post Re: RE: Telecaster "I want the freedom to express my op Telecaster
Matt Boyd wrote:
Telecaster,
Isn't that definition of fear? I am not trying to offend you. But, that doesn't make any sense to me. It is certainly not the way your supposed to biblically confront your brother if he offend's you.
Maybe it is easier for me because I am a military chaplain. I can use my name and no COG official cares... Or maybe they do.

But I cannot imagine any warrior for Christ trying to avoid backlash and calling it wisdom. I have faced life threatening danger in a Muslim country for the cause of Christ and will not avoid backlash or the fear of man for speaking the truth in love. Help me understand how avoiding backlash is wisdom.


Seriously, you can't understand that? Do you understand why the CIA or Secret Service don't use their real names on missions? It's not because they are afraid; they just have a job and family to protect. It's wisdom.

There's a fine line between fear and wisdom. If I feared what people would say about me, I wouldn't post period. Anybody that knows me in real life can probably figure out who I am. I just know how words can be misconstrued and as many fires as I have in my personal life, I don't need to add more fires by having my name attributed to things I really wasn't trying to say or either didn't say by people who do live in fear and try to find anything they can to either justify or add to the fear.

When you know something but you don't want it to get out because of the hurt it could cause others, do you keep it secret out of fear or out of wisdom knowing the ramifications? Like I said, there is a fine line and only the individual can truly determine which side he's on. I know for me, it's wisdom.

Hope that makes sense.

May I add, I don't post on here to post rumors or to say things I wouldn't say to someone's face. Some folks use a pseudonym because they are allowed to get away with their real thoughts about people and the church without having to be accountable for it. There again, is that fine line.
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2/9/08 5:11 pm


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Post Re: RE: Telecaster "I want the freedom to express my op Matt Boyd
Telecaster wrote:
Matt Boyd wrote:
Telecaster,
Isn't that definition of fear? I am not trying to offend you. But, that doesn't make any sense to me. It is certainly not the way your supposed to biblically confront your brother if he offend's you.
Maybe it is easier for me because I am a military chaplain. I can use my name and no COG official cares... Or maybe they do.

But I cannot imagine any warrior for Christ trying to avoid backlash and calling it wisdom. I have faced life threatening danger in a Muslim country for the cause of Christ and will not avoid backlash or the fear of man for speaking the truth in love. Help me understand how avoiding backlash is wisdom.


Seriously, you can't understand that? Do you understand why the CIA or Secret Service don't use their real names on missions? It's not because they are afraid; they just have a job and family to protect. It's wisdom.

There's a fine line between fear and wisdom. If I feared what people would say about me, I wouldn't post period. Anybody that knows me in real life can probably figure out who I am. I just know how words can be misconstrued and as many fires as I have in my personal life, I don't need to add more fires by having my name attributed to things I really wasn't trying to say or either didn't say by people who do live in fear and try to find anything they can to either justify or add to the fear.

When you know something but you don't want it to get out because of the hurt it could cause others, do you keep it secret out of fear or out of wisdom knowing the ramifications? Like I said, there is a fine line and only the individual can truly determine which side he's on. I know for me, it's wisdom.

Hope that makes sense.

May I add, I don't post on here to post rumors or to say things I wouldn't say to someone's face. Some folks use a pseudonym because they are allowed to get away with their real thoughts about people and the church without having to be accountable for it. There again, is that fine line.


I can see we are probably going to have to agree to disagree.
And I am glad that you have integrity and don’t post rumors or to say things you wouldn't say to someone's face.

I do work for the Federal government so I understand and have ministered to people in those organizations. At my previous base I had people from those organizations in my congregation. The organizations that do use false names/identities in intelligence gathering are doing that to get information about our enemies. The COG leadership is not our enemy and we, the church, should not function like the world.

And are you saying like the CIA, you have a job and have to protect your family? That sounds like Spider-man’s philosophy. And for the CIA and NSA that may work for them and be necessary. But the Kingdom of God works on different principles.

When I know something and I don't want it to get out because of the hurt it could cause others I keep it to myself because in most situation it was told to me in confidence. Other times, your right, it would not be wise. But, I don’t see how that applies to having a pseudonym on here unless someone wanted to leak information or say something hurtful and not be held accountable for it.

Communication, both verbal and written can be misunderstood and often is. A few months ago a rumor was being spread about me in the chapel that I hated retirees because my focus is to reach the lost and not cater the preferences of that group. It wasn’t true and I addressed it personally with individuals and from the pulpit. Should I have addressed all that in a spider-man costume?

So… we have different perspectives. I don’t see anything from a Biblical or Christian point of view that supports your position. Maybe you can comment on that for me.
God Bless!
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2/9/08 7:20 pm


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Post Telecaster
I don't know see how the issue of using a false name is a Biblical matter to begin with, but to go the road again . . .

You mentioned they use false names to protect themselves from their enemies. Surely you don't think that everybody that screams Church of God is a friend do you? There are those who are out for themselves and they'll take down whoever they have to to get a step up in the system. I don't want to be part of that at all either by my actions, or my name. Using a false name protects me from having my name drug through mess. I don't do it because I'm afraid it will be done. I use the false name because I know it will be done as it is many times over with other folks. Again, that's just wisdom, not fear.

I agree the church shouldn't function like the world, but in the current dog eat dog system we have, it does, or at least some folks want it to. I don't know about the whole Spiderman philosophy, but yes I do have to protect my family and my integrity in ministry. There are those wolves in sheep's clothing that will attempt to come in and do harm to the people of God, so yes I do feel a responsibility to protect my integrity and that of my family.
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2/10/08 8:59 am


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Post Matt Boyd
Telecaster wrote:
I don't know see how the issue of using a false name is a Biblical matter to begin with, but to go the road again . . .

You mentioned they use false names to protect themselves from their enemies. Surely you don't think that everybody that screams Church of God is a friend do you? There are those who are out for themselves and they'll take down whoever they have to to get a step up in the system. I don't want to be part of that at all either by my actions, or my name. Using a false name protects me from having my name drug through mess. I don't do it because I'm afraid it will be done. I use the false name because I know it will be done as it is many times over with other folks. Again, that's just wisdom, not fear.

I agree the church shouldn't function like the world, but in the current dog eat dog system we have, it does, or at least some folks want it to. I don't know about the whole Spiderman philosophy, but yes I do have to protect my family and my integrity in ministry. There are those wolves in sheep's clothing that will attempt to come in and do harm to the people of God, so yes I do feel a responsibility to protect my integrity and that of my family.


Telecaster,

Everything in life is a biblical matter. The text should engage our lives and inform everything we do. Especially if your hope is to have a meaningful/Spirit-led dialogue with someone about important issues which face our church and you expect to affect change. What you write on here is important. And the leading of Christ needs to be involved in the “how” as well as the “what” you say.

The way I deal with those people in the church who are out to get others/wolves in sheep clothing etc. both in the Church of God and in the chaplain service is to allow God to be my defender. Before I became an active duty chaplain, 7 yrs ago, one individual from International Headquarters threaten me in his office. I had another COG minister spread unfounded rumors about me because he felt threatened by me and the work I was doing. I had lived in Cleveland 9 years, attending Lee, the Seminary and then full-time ministry. I love to confront! I am a confrontational person. But the Lord spoke to me in those situations and told me to leave room for his correction. So, I submitted to Christ and God did a better job then I could have.

I have seen and experienced the politics first hand. And I say again, those people in our church who have wrong motives are not our enemy. Our battle is not against flesh and blood. As we confront in love as the Holy Spirit leads us it causes wolves in sheep’s clothing to expose themselves often times they make fools of themselves and if they decide to attack us we do not use the same weapons of the flesh, (manipulation, rumors, gossip, backbiting, lying) we use the weapons of the Spirit of God. This is when we become powerful in God, and evil political power has no hold on us. All they can do is crucify us and then we will be with our Lord. In the end it is God’s ministry not ours and we have nothing to lose if we are obedient to Christ and allow him to be our defender. And that is why having a pseudonym is a Biblical matter. Have a great Sunday and Preach Hard!
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2/10/08 10:53 am


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Post Telecaster
Matt, I completely agree with what you're saying. Yes everything should be Biblical, but Paul did warn to not be so heavenly minded. I'm not saying you are. I'm just saying that's a rule of thought for me at times. I can assure you I didn't consult the Bible when choosing my pen name or deciding to use or not use the pen name.

I'm a confrontational person as well. I don't run from conflict, but as one minister said, you have to pick your hills that you're willing to die on. Actscelerate isn't one for me.

I realize people are not the enemy but being controlled by the enemy makes them as dangerous as the enemy. There's a reason why we are to be harmless as doves and wise as serpents. The enemy is out there and I do what I can to not give him room to move.

This site is much criticized in my state. It's known by several names such as the gossip site or rumor site. Just to have your name associated with it sends off a reaction. To some it's negative. To others it's positive. Either way, it's not a hill I'm willing to fight and die on. So the wisest thing for me to do is if I want to participate then do so under a pen name to keep others from attempting to misconstrue my ideas and/or motives.

If we have to agree to disagree then so be it. I completely understand what you're saying and agree with you. The situation however doesn't apply to me.

. . . By the way, I did preach hard today. It was awesome. We had 4 saved!
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2/10/08 3:02 pm


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