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Poll - What is your stance on the coming of the lord.
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What is your stance on the coming of the lord.
Pre-Trib
66%
 66%  [ 10 ]
Mid-Trib
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Post-Trib
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Pan-Trib (will all pan out)
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
Pre-millenial
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
pre-wrath
13%
 13%  [ 2 ]
Other
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 15

Message Author
Post stp89
One of my problems with all of the non-pre-trib theories is that they all demand that Christ delay His coming for some future event. I think this runs against the grain of every warning in the NT to watch, pray, and be ready.

Why all of the parables about readiness (10 virgins, talents, etc.) if events must precede the coming of the Lord? In fact, I believe Christ said that it is the root of an evil heart that says "My Lord delayeth his coming" (for all you KJV fans Laughing ).

The pre-trib position says that the coming of Christ is imminent, while all others must (of necessity) state "not until x/y/z happens".
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10/19/07 12:21 am


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Post TheoloJohn
stp,

Concerning "imminency," the article I linked earlier responds to that issue directly:

Quote:
(6) Concerning the imminency of His return, Pre-Tribulationists believe the Bible teaches that the Lord could come at any moment, and could have done so at any point in Church history. This, in itself, is considered sufficient reason by many for holding to the Pre-Tribulation view. A great deal can be said on this point--we will just look at it briefly.

The rapture was not considered to be imminent in the sense of "any moment" by the apostles. Paul expected martyrdom, not rapture (II Timothy 4:6-8). He also said specifically that the rapture was not imminent (II Thessalonians 2:1-2). Peter knew that he would grow old and die (Jesus told him in John 21:18-19). All the apostles knew that the gospel must first be preached to every nation--to the uttermost parts of the earth. (Nearly 2000 years later, this still hasn't been done!)

Jesus Himself did not teach He was coming back at any moment. The parables of the Virgins and of the Talents in Matthew 25 show how we are to use the intervening time before the return of Christ. Verse 5 tells us the "bridegroom tarried". In verse 19, we read, "After a long time, the lord of those servants cometh."

Jesus also gave us signs and conditions that He said must come to pass before the Tribulation. The conditions of Matthew 24:15-21; Mark 13:10, 14-19, most certainly remain to be fulfilled. Paul likewise taught that the apostasy and the Antichrist must take place before the rapture (II Thessalonians 2:1-3). Jesus tells us that when we see all these things come to pass, that the end is near. (Matthew 24:32-33; Mark 13:28-30; Luke 21:28, 31)


Also, about the "My lord delayeth his coming"...
Quote:
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Your criticism of nonpretribbers might have teeth to it if it were in fact true that the attitude displayed in this illustration were actually true of nonprettribbers. I really don't think there are any nonpretribbers who are interested in encouraging people to sin like the evil servant in the passage you have cited. We are also not saying "My Lord delayeth his coming, so I then can just live it up as if there's no judgment day coming for me, ever."

To the contrary, the nonpretribber who carefully thinks through the implications of his position will have to be spiritually prepared for the most intense persecution that Christians have ever endured. The nonpretribber is not looking for an "escape" before things get really bad (as the pretribber is). The nonpretribber has to be ready to endure even martyrdom for the sake of Christ if necessary.

About Luke 21:36, which you cited earlier in the thread, the article I cited answers that question directly:

Quote:
(2) In Luke 21:36, we read:

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Here we must ask to what does the phrase "all these things" apply. Let us examine this verse in context. In verses 25-28, Jesus speaks of the signs immediately preceding His second coming in glory. Men at this time will be filled with fear and distress over "the things which are coming on the earth" (verse 26). The context here makes it clear that this fear is caused by the expectation of God's divine judgement, "for the powers of heaven shall be shaken".

The second coming of Christ, when He returns in glory, will be accompanied by judgment and punishment and restitution (I Thessalonians 1:7-10; Acts 3:20, 21). This, however, is not to be feared by the Church, for to us He has given the encouragement, "Now when these things begin to take place, look up and lift your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh" (verse 28). "The things to come" then clearly describe the events associated with the return of our Lord in glory, so feared by men, and not to the Tribulation.(3) In I Thessalonians, we read:


May we all be ready, come what may...

John
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10/19/07 12:49 am


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Post Re: Theolojohn and yo TheoloJohn
Bro Bob Hodo wrote:

Theolojohn, I have read the article, downloaded it, printed it out and already have several areas that I dispute, and hope to get back to you with it. There are far more qualified minds than mine here though, who I hope will take up the challenge. ( I am also trying to figure out why there is no point 5 in the second section, perhaps he refuted it himself? )


Bro Bob,

It appears that whoever edited this particular electronic edition failed to place a hard return just before point five in that section. The numeric fifth point (5) is kind of hard to see because of this lack. I have bolded it below for clarity.

Quote:
The Pre-Tribulation position on this point simply refutes the words of Jesus. In the Scofield Reference Bible notes on verse 24, we read: "The parable of the wheat and tares is not a description of the world, but of that which professes to be the kingdom"; and then in the notes on verse 30, "At the end of this age the tares are set apart for burning, but first the wheat is gathered into the barn." However, Jesus says, "The field is the world" (verse 38) and "So shall it be in the end of the world" (verse 40); also, "Gather ye together first the tares" (verse 30).(5) Pre-Tribulationists also use the Old Testament to "prove" their case by the presentation of certain analogies. Special significance is placed on the translation of Enoch before the judgment of the Flood and the deliverance of Lot before the destruction of Sodom. Both are said to be "types of the Church" raptured to heaven without dying before the Tribulation. Noah who remained through the flood is said to be a "type of Israel" in the Tribulation. Why Noah would not make just as good a "type of the Church" being preserved through the Tribulation is not explained. Why could we not apply the "type of the Church" label to the Israelites that were wonderfully preserved through the plagues of Egypt, or to the three Hebrews who were preserved through Nebuchadnezzar's fiery furnace?


Quote from Bob: It is well written, and the fact that two healthy independent minds can come up with two understandings is PRECISELY why James Slay, James Cross et al intentionally left the topic open when writing our Declaration of Faith.

TJ's response:
I would love to have had a chance to sit down and talk with some of those men, as well as with so many other Godly ministers of yesteryear. By the time I get to, I really doubt anyone will be arguing about the precise timing of rapture any more!

John
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10/19/07 1:28 am


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Post stp89
TJ,

I appreciate your contributions to this discussion. And I think you make a good counterpoint to my "lord delayeth his coming" point.

What about my point regarding Israel. Where does the nation of Israel fit into your eschatology?

And just for the record, I know that pre-wrath's, mid-trib's, and posties get stereotyped incorrectly at times. But pre-tribbers also suffer the misfortune of being labeled LaHaye/Jenkins/Lindsey-ites. My views on the pre-trib rapture are not shaped by "Left Behind" books or the latest apocalyptic guide in the Christian bookstore.
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10/19/07 7:32 am


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Post Who's gonna moderate the board after the rapture roughridercog
Hmmm, and who will be posting? Confused
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10/19/07 8:44 am


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Post Post-Trib...but Jesus Could Come Tonight! Yo Dude
The Bible says this:

Quote:
Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Romans 9:25-29
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.



God reserves the right to cut it all short in righteousness. Yes, I believe that the current schedule takes us through the tribulation. But the Lord can at any time cut it short in righteousness--and indeed will (or has) already cut it short!

At any moment, He might say, "That's enough," and it's over. That's what I believe, and why I want to be ready TODAY.

Like Nineveh, we have a certain judgment coming down on us. And also like Nineveh, God reserves the right to halt the judgment, per His wishes and per the people's repentance.
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10/19/07 9:56 am


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Post My stance is the only stance... Mr Semprini
Come soon, Lord Jesus!
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10/19/07 2:16 pm


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