 |
Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| What is your stance on the coming of the lord. |
| Pre-Trib |
|
66% |
[ 10 ] |
| Mid-Trib |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Post-Trib |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Pan-Trib (will all pan out) |
|
6% |
[ 1 ] |
| Pre-millenial |
|
6% |
[ 1 ] |
| pre-wrath |
|
13% |
[ 2 ] |
| Other |
|
6% |
[ 1 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 15 |
|
| Message |
Author |
 reaching |
Jason Moore |
I hear you stp, but like a lot of pre-trib advocates, I think that you are really having to reach to find justification for your belief. Just because God saved Noah and Lot, there's nowhere in the Bible that says that will be the case with NT believers. Also, the Bible does say that the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, but will that be the case for believers?
Check this out:
I Thess. 5:
1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
It seems that the ones who are suprised will be those who are not believers.
Apart from all this, you would think something like a pretribulational rapture would be very explicit in the NT--not something we had to reach for.
Again, I hope you guys are right, but from a historical, orthodox reading of the text, I can't find it.
_________________
Christian love, either towards God or towards man, is an affair of the will.
-C.S. Lewis
The only good race pace is suicide pace--and today looks like a good day to die.
-Steve Prefontaine |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 720
10/18/07 8:22 am
|
|
|
|  |
 |
|
|
| |
macgulley |
You beat me to it! 
As a friend of mine is fond of saying "If God's fer it, I'm fer it. If He's agin' it, I'm agin' it."
_________________
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"
anonymous |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 633
10/18/07 8:35 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pre-Trib |
GODROCKS |
| I say its Pre-Trib only because I believe that if I have lived my life as a Christian, am saved, read my Bible, do all the things I am suppose to do, then why would God make me stay here to go through all that will happen during the Tribulation. I mean, if I am going to have to be here for it anyway then I might as well live how I want to live and get saved later. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 381
10/18/07 8:38 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Silver Bullet |
stp89 |
Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (KJV)
For me this is the proverbial silver bullet in the debate. In context, Jesus talks about the horrors of the Tribulation period. He then instructs His followers to pray that they can escape it.
Now some say that there is no escape, but Jesus says there is a way of escape. Who am I to believe? 
And as far as Noah and Lot- I think they are good illustrations because both Jesus and Peter mentioned them in their teachings about the end times. There is obviously something to be gleaned from the historical precedent of Noah and Lot. Their times were marked by violence and moral decay, but they were also delivered before God's wrath was poured out. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1248
10/18/07 8:43 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Bro Bob |
| Quote: | | Just because God saved Noah and Lot, there's nowhere in the Bible that says that will be the case with NT believers. |
| Quote: |
Luke 17:26
And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. |
|
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
10/18/07 9:08 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pre-Millenial |
theophorus |
Jesus is coming back for His Bride!
Noah is used as a point in both pre and post opinions. Did God save Noah from judgment or did God keep Noah through His judgment on the earth?
Some pre-trib folks have also used the argument, "why would God allow his saints to go through something so terrible?" This is not a scriptural argument. This same logic could be used to say that if you are going through a time of testing now (tribulation) then you must not be one of His own. It rains on the just and the unjust. Why was Jesus allowed to go through tribulation in the wilderness after His baptism? Had he done something wrong that God would test Him? or Did God show through Christ's example that we can overcome trials and testing without falling?
Hurricanes, cancers, drunk drivers, birth defects tsunamis, genocidal dictators kill both Christians and non-Christians. Why would God allow these terrible things to happen to his church?
But He is faithful and true! I'll be excited whenever He comes! |
Friendly Face
Posts: 209
10/18/07 9:13 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Silver Bullet |
Jason Moore |
| stp89 wrote: |
Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (KJV)
For me this is the proverbial silver bullet in the debate. In context, Jesus talks about the horrors of the Tribulation period. He then instructs His followers to pray that they can escape it.
Now some say that there is no escape, but Jesus says there is a way of escape. Who am I to believe?
And as far as Noah and Lot- I think they are good illustrations because both Jesus and Peter mentioned them in their teachings about the end times. There is obviously something to be gleaned from the historical precedent of Noah and Lot. Their times were marked by violence and moral decay, but they were also delivered before God's wrath was poured out. |
Do you know that the Christians of that day thought that this passage referred to the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d.? In any case, praying that we might escape the destruction doesn't mean that we are going to be "raptured away." Rev. 12 says that during the tribulation that God will protect his people during the tribulation.
And Brother Bob...can you complete that verse you just quoted? The thing that will be like the days of Noah is that sin and spiritual inattention will be rampant.
Again, I hope you guys are right, but most modern evangelicals don't realize how tainted their hermeneutics are--they read the Scripture with an extremely pre-tribulational slant and have little historical perspective on the text.
_________________
Christian love, either towards God or towards man, is an affair of the will.
-C.S. Lewis
The only good race pace is suicide pace--and today looks like a good day to die.
-Steve Prefontaine |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 720
10/18/07 9:18 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Bro Bob |
There have been martyrs all the way back to Abel.
There are martyrs today.
But these do not die at the hand of God, a result of God's judgement against the wicked. ( Friendly fire? )
Those who died at Sodom and Gomorrah were wicked and died at the hand of God. Those who died in the flood were wicked and died at the hand of God.
Those who die in the tribulation at the hand of the anti-christ will be martyrs, but those who die during the outpouring of the wrath of God will not be martyrs.
This is not any new invention or revelation.
| Quote: | Gen 18:
23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? |
Whatever your belief about end time events, know this: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, will not destroy his righteous while he is destroying the wicked.
side note: I used to think all this destruction would come as a result of men making nuclear war, and it may. But God didn't need our help at Sodom, nor at the flood, and he won't need man's help at the end of this age either. Food for thought.
BB |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
10/18/07 9:27 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Silver Bullet |
stp89 |
| Jason Moore wrote: | | Again, I hope you guys are right, but most modern evangelicals don't realize how tainted their hermeneutics are--they read the Scripture with an extremely pre-tribulational slant and have little historical perspective on the text. |
Actually Jason, it's typically the more liberal denominations that espouse positions other than pre-trib. Your appeal to historical perspective matters little. If Martin Luther had held to historical perspective and church tradition, then you and I might be priests instead of pastors today. Well, that is if we were lucky enough to read the scriptures for ourselves. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1248
10/18/07 9:28 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Some of the Reasons It's Not Pre-Trib... |
Yo Dude |
| Quote: | Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. |
| Quote: | Mark 13:
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. |
| Quote: | Luke 21:
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. |
| Quote: | Revelation 8:
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Revelation 11:
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
1 Corinthians 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. |
| Quote: | Daniel 7:
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. |
| Quote: | 2 Thessalonians 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. |
| Quote: | Matthew 24:
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. |
This is the scripture. Not extrapolation. Any pre-trib position must handle all of these objections (just as any post-trib must handle any apparenly pre-trib scriptures).
Last edited by Yo Dude on 10/18/07 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8625
10/18/07 9:41 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Silver Bullet |
Jason Moore |
[quote="stp89"] | Jason Moore wrote: | | Your appeal to historical perspective matters little. |
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why it's so easy to make Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins millionaires. We do not value what the Scripture has meant throughout the generations, so we fall prey to every wind of doctrine.
Hey, I realize that most pentecostals think that Jesus died, was buried and resurrected somewhere around 150 years ago, but I really don't think that we should throw away 2 millenia of scriptural interpretation, especially when a lot of those interpretations came from a proximity both chronologically and geographically closer than we could ever hope to be.
_________________
Christian love, either towards God or towards man, is an affair of the will.
-C.S. Lewis
The only good race pace is suicide pace--and today looks like a good day to die.
-Steve Prefontaine |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 720
10/18/07 9:44 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
stp89 |
Jason, you're making a lot of assumptions there my friend! I'm telling you that I value Scripture above what some early church father taught. Do your research Jason and you will find that many of the ECF's taught some hokey stuff!!! (baptismal regeneration, amillinialism, replacement theology, cessationism, etc.etc.)
Some of the heresies that we still battle today (Gnosticism, et.al) had their origins in the first and second centuries. Just because something is older, doesn't make it better. Didn't Daniel the prophet say that knowledge would increase in the end times? Is it so far fetched to believe that we (at the end of the age) might possibly have a better perspective on bible prophecy than those of the 1st and 2nd centuries?
Until 1948, who would have been able to fathom the nation of Israel again factoring into bible prophecy? That's why most of the stuff prior to that is decidedly replacement theology. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1248
10/18/07 9:51 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Jason Moore |
| stp89 wrote: | Jason, you're making a lot of assumptions there my friend! I'm telling you that I value Scripture above what some early church father taught. Do your research Jason and you will find that many of the ECF's taught some hokey stuff!!! (baptismal regeneration, amillinialism, replacement theology, cessationism, etc.etc.)
Some of the heresies that we still battle today (Gnosticism, et.al) had their origins in the first and second centuries. Just because something is older, doesn't make it better. Didn't Daniel the prophet say that knowledge would increase in the end times? Is it so far fetched to believe that we (at the end of the age) might possibly have a better perspective on bible prophecy than those of the 1st and 2nd centuries?
Until 1948, who would have been able to fathom the nation of Israel again factoring into bible prophecy? That's why most of the stuff prior to that is decidedly replacement theology. |
Using your own logic, is something better because it's newer? I understand that many crazy things have come down over the years, but heresy still continues today. I wasn't talking about heresy, but rather accepted Xian orthodoxy.
The primary reason I'm not pre-trib, however, is that I don't think the whole of the new testament supports that "theory." People use little proof texts to prove their point, but they neglect the whole context of Scripture. Look at some of the texts that Yo posted. They can really present problems for faith in a pre-trib rapture. Like I said earlier, I would think that a pre-trib rapture would be a big enough event for Jesus to talk a little more explicitly about, not just vaguely hint at.
Above all, I hope I haven't been too harsh. It's good for us to have a little friendly dialogue, but I never want to offend a brother. It's certainly not worth that to me. In the end, we must be faithful to God in either case, and honestly, I hope you're right!
_________________
Christian love, either towards God or towards man, is an affair of the will.
-C.S. Lewis
The only good race pace is suicide pace--and today looks like a good day to die.
-Steve Prefontaine |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 720
10/18/07 11:35 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Hi Jason |
Bro Bob |
| Quote: | Do you know that the Christians of that day thought that this
passage referred to the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d.? |
You are kinda right.
Mathew 24. When Christ spoke these words AD70 was still to come. The people who heard him speak them had no idea he was predicting the overthrow of Jerusalem by Titus, and that it would be 1948 before there would be a another Jewish nation. So they didn't actually think he was referring to this, but to those of us on this side of it, it is plain.
However, this presents a major problem with Mathew 24 and Luke 21. He says "not one stone" and they ask, "When" and he begins with what was accomplished in 70 AD and morphs into something that has not happened even to this day.
Is it any wonder then, that we might be confused if certain passages about things that happen only 7 years apart are spoken of as if they happened at about the same time?
( A similar thing happens in | Quote: | | Zech 13 6And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. |
Looking back at it now, it is an obvious reference to Christ at his Crucifixion, but this would not have been obvious to the pre-Christ readers of this same passage, especially in context to the other things said therein.)
Yet, there is no doubt that two separate events are described in scripture. 1) a catching away
2) a second coming of Christ to earth.
All sides, pre, mid, and post trib agree up to this point. Where they disagree is on the timing of the 1st event, in relationship to the 2nd.
| Quote: | | And Brother Bob...can you complete that verse you just quoted? The thing that will be like the days of Noah is that sin and spiritual inattention will be rampant. |
Again, I agree with you but not in the way you stated it. I read "as it was" and I agree that this includes a description of "how things were", but I also believe it means "how things went".
While the rest of the text describes what wicked people were doing, it also says plainly that the righteous were spared.
| Quote: | 26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. |
.............
Again, I am woefully equipped for an in depth debate on things that leave far greater minds than mine disagreeing with each other. I am only attempting to be prepared to give answer for the hope that I have inside me, and what I base that hope upon.
The Bible certainly anticipated that we might differ, and that would be ok, too.
| Quote: | Romans 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. |
BB |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
10/18/07 1:35 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Bro. Bob Hodo... |
Yo Dude |
I must point out, Brother, that we do NOT all agree that there are two comings--a Rapture and a Second Coming.
Post-tribbers explicitly deny this. They claim there is ONE COMING--and that it is the SECOND COMING--and that it is THAT coming in which the dead in Christ shall rise and we which are alive and remain will meet Him in the air.
That is, the events that most people call the rapture will indeed take place--when the Lord descends to destroy the anti-Christ.
We believe we will meet Him in the air (as the virgins were called to "go out an meet" the groom) and will then RETURN TO EARTH with Him, serving, perhaps, as the armies of the Lord.
And that will mark the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millenium.
Just to clarify....
Love ya. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8625
10/18/07 1:43 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| DO NOT HI-JACK - THIS IS A POLL! |
volfan101 |
Yo has gone into apologists mode. Start a new thread. This is a poll.
_________________
"Never slap a man chewing tobacco" |
Friendly Face
Posts: 138
10/18/07 2:18 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pre Wrath |
Layperson |
I believe he will return just before the Day of the Lord...that day of terrible wrath poured out by God.
Only one second coming. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1747
10/18/07 2:56 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
TheoloJohn |
I'm truly sorry I don't have more time to engage in this lively and friendly discussion, but I would like to add just one particular point. Though the thought of having to go through the Great Tribulation as a true believer may sound terrible, a careful look at the post trib (and pre-wrath) views reveals that the wrath of God isn't poured out on God's true believers during the tribulation:
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
So the oft-used scare tactic that "God would have to be a wife beater if he were to let the church go through any of the tribulation" simply does not follow--for the Scripture plainly reveals that the servants of God will be "sealed," protected and exempted from the wrath of God which will be poured out in the Great Tribulation.
God bless,
John
P.S.: This is not a poll. I know polls, and this is not one. This is a thread, no matter what it may be called.
_________________
"Of course we are concerned about people voting if they are dead," George Stanton, chief information officer for the New York State Board of Elections. Poughkeepsie Journal, October 29, 2006
Last edited by TheoloJohn on 10/19/07 12:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2160
10/18/07 10:38 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Yo. |
Bro Bob |
| Quote: | | I must point out, Brother, that we do NOT all agree that there are two comings--a Rapture and a Second Coming. |
Go back and read what I said.
I was very careful NOT to say that we agreed on two comings, but on two events, to which you then promptly referred and in the correct order.
Again, the timing of the 1st, as it relates to the 2nd is the only point of contention between us.
It would be very hard to complete a discussion of this topic in this forum. We really need to sit together, and I would have to hush and take notes while you made your points, and then you would have to do the same, and at the end of it what we would find is that there would be questions I would pose for which you would have no answer that suited even you, and you would likely pose questions to me that I likewise could not answer.
I used to fear the rapture as a kid, almost as much as missing it! Now that I am older, I think it would be really cool if it happened right now.
I would certainly rather go in it tonight, than to witness the great tribulation, even if I came through it unscathed.
BB |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3944
10/19/07 12:10 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
stp89 |
| Jason Moore wrote: | | Above all, I hope I haven't been too harsh. It's good for us to have a little friendly dialogue, but I never want to offend a brother. It's certainly not worth that to me. In the end, we must be faithful to God in either case, and honestly, I hope you're right! |
You haven't offended me Jason- no harm, no foul. Iron sharpens iron. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1248
10/19/07 12:16 am
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
