Actscelerate.com

Aaron Scott

Tom, unfair.

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6036 **10/30/15 12:09 pm**

What you may have found here is a scriptural resistance to having female leadership forced upon us by those who, disregarding the consistent "no" of the GA, keep bringing it up in one form or another.

I think you are about the nicest guy around. But if the claim that the SCRIPTURES give us direction to place women in the leadership of the church, I have no choice but to argue that, no, it doesn't.

As I have ALWAYS indicated, that doesn't mean that women aren't every bit as smart and effective as men. It simply means that, for whatever reason, that is the way God has done things for thousands of years, with a few exceptions here and there.

As for redemption not rule, I agree! BUT my point was directed at the wife who does NOT submit. And to try to apply my comments to a submissive wife is not fair. God dealt with rebellion. Yes, He tried to always be redemptive, but there were times He had to do more to get people to see the value of submission.

It is unfair to try to act like those who believe in submission are somehow narrow-minded and probably part of the KKK--you get the idea. The concept is scriptural. Including the part of a man having his household in order and subjection. What does that mean, exactly? If the wife is out of order, does that man have his house in order? Is he to do nothing BUT pray?

These things keep getting left behind in the discussion, as everyone is so quick to jump on those of us who see things differently.

But the other side knows that if they can make the rest of us look like narrow-minded bigots, then, even though it's is blatantly false, they can begin to carry the day.

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12804 **10/30/15 12:32 pm**

Slaves should obey their masters no matter what. Slavery is God's design, and inherently manifests God's own authority.

It's scriptural, period.

Aaron Scott

See, Quiet Wyatt, that's the kind of stuff you can't say with your real name!

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6036 **10/30/15 2:18 pm**

(SMILE).

Or do I sense snark?

Old Time Country Preacher

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **10/30/15 2:55 pm**

An who said Actscelerate may be dyin a slow death.

Looks like its goin hot n heavy........... Laughing

Quiet Wyatt

Re: See, Quiet Wyatt, that's the kind of stuff you can't say with your real name!

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12804 **10/30/15 4:06 pm**

Cojak

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24282 **10/30/15 4:11 pm**

Carolyn Smith

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5915 **10/30/15 6:52 pm**

Aaron Scott

Tom, again an unfair reading...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6036 **10/30/15 8:04 pm**

No one is arguing that "I will submit" is not far superior to "you need to submit." But the question is not what to do with a submissive wife. It is about what to do--if anything--with the wife who says, at least in deed, "I will not submit."

You are creating a strawman. That is, you are arguing about something that seems to be "that's not way to act toward a submissive wife." Well, of course.

But when the woman will not submit, what then? It seems that your side--at least so far--has offered two suggestions:

1) it's the man's fault that she's not submissive; and/or

2). just pray for her, that's all.

No one is arguing to dominate women. The question that got to going (and which is apparently somewhat off-topic) is what to do when a woman does not submit to her husband. Should the husband do anything?

I say that he must--or at least should. I'm not saying be abusive. I am saying that as in all circumstances, there are both good and bad consequences.

I hear everyone saying how that while they might correct someone else in church or the business world, and will correct their kids, the wife is apparently hands-off if she becomes rebellious. I don't know that I would know what to do, but I think it is right to do something instead if the knee-jerk "blame it on the husband."

Nature Boy Florida

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16633 **10/30/15 8:59 pm**

I totally agree with Tom's texts on relationships. In fact, I have already lifted some of it and used in a situation I am trying to help folks work through. Thanks Tom.

However, I must say I am intrigued by Aaron's question. A pastor has an unsubmissive wife - and through whomever's fault - the situation needs to be corrected. It looks bad. There is a Jezebel spirit that has taken root in the wife. How is that corrected?

How is that done - short of getting a divorce (or the rod of correction to those so inclined)

(Please see my post from a few pages back)
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Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12804 **10/30/15 9:24 pm**

I wish it were otherwise, but tragically, I can speak from personal experience about this. My mother, after 27 years of marriage and ministry, decided to run off with one of Dad's 'friends'. After literally thousands of dollars spent by Dad for marriage counseling in an effort to salvage the marriage, Mom still persisted in her adulterous affair. Whenever we tried to plead with her to come back and not destroy our family and ministry (Mom and Dad had built their local church up to 200 steadily over many years), all Mom could say was, "I know what the Bible says but I'm NOT gonna do it!"

I honestly don't see how treating her like a child (or even a good spanking!) would have helped her to stop being rebellious and start being submissive. She made her adult choice to rebel against God, destroy her family and for all intents and purposes, killed her husband's spirit and ministry for good.

Cojak

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24282 **10/30/15 10:00 pm**

I believe this falls under the IMPOSSIBLE DREAM if the rebellious person does not accept the scripture or has no desire to'be a wife' of a Minister, or any Christian.

Everyone (methinks) agrees something must be done, but in our day and time any physical-discipline is out, whether it is effective or not, unless it is the courts. I don't know if this is a good statement anymore, but 'we are all free moral agents' married or not. Shocked

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John Jett

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4955 **10/30/15 11:40 pm**

Aaron Scott

Tom, please, bro!

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6036 **10/31/15 4:45 am**

While you speak of Christ's noble sacrifice, you conveniently leave out that that is NOT AT ALL how He responded to the out-of-line churches in the Book of Revelation!

He was loving, but quite pointed, going so far as to say this:

(Revelation 2:20 KJV) Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Aaron Scott

JUST FIGURED IT OUT!!!!

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6036 **10/31/15 5:08 am**

I have just two words for you.

These words are the answer to the rebellious wife who just will not behave.

I know that Tom will see the wisdom of this immediately.

WIFE PRISON

A facility just for rebellious wives. We already have a place for abusive men. Oddly enough, it also has "prison" in the name.

But now, just for the wife who will not submit, it's wife prison. Yep, three squares a day, but you can't go anywhere, can't do anything, and have to clean the jail until you're ready to go back home and do the right thing.

Also, every inmate is required to attend discussion classes on their poor behavior and lacking submission skills.

I knew it would come to me if I'd just keep thinking about it!

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12804 **10/31/15 8:45 am**

Perhaps REGULAR whippings would have made her submissive.

Aaron Scott

Quiet Wyatt...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6036 **10/31/15 9:02 am**

Might have.

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12804 **10/31/15 9:25 am**

Yep. Just like keeping slaves in line.

Carolyn Smith

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5915 **10/31/15 9:25 am**

Actually, Aaron, you've answered your own question re: the scripture above in Revelation.

Jesus died for our sin and paid the penalty when we were in rebellion. Yet, when people choose to continue on in their rebellion, the consequences of their sin will catch up with them. When He casts her into a bed and kills her children, it is not that He is punishing her. It is that she is reaping the consequences of her actions.

When there is rebellion in someone's heart, you can't beat it out of them. Sending to prison will only make them meaner. (I won't even acknowledge your last suggestion.) It is a HEART issue. God must deal with their hearts. And if that person chooses not to allow God to change them, that person (and everyone who loves them) will deal with the consequences.

God desires to give us mercy, but if we do not repent, the sin will be dealt with by Him.
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bonnie knox

Aaron, are you engaging in the dialogue?

bonnie knox · [Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **10/31/15 11:07 am**

I'm going to do the preacher thing and start out with a joke. Did you hear about the couple that got divorced because of religious reasons? The guy thought he was God.

The aspect of Christ's sacrificial love for the church is mentioned in Paul's admonition to the Ephesians with respect to the love a husband should have for his wife. This does not mean that marriage is analogous to every aspect of Christ's relationship to the church.
This is why John Jett said "True, but husbands aren't called to 'discipline your wives as Christ disciplined the church,' unless I missed that somewhere...." and why Tom said "The issue is taking the analogy beyond its intended purpose." Its why I tried to ask why you saw the lordship of Christ as the aspect being pointed out in the passage in 1 Corinthians.
I heard a rumor that a local pastor (with much greater than local influence within the family integrated church movement) actually performed a wedding for a couple in which he repeatedly told the groom during the ceremony, "You are Christ. You are Christ." Shocked

Aaron Scott

Carolyn, I hear you, my sis...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6036 **10/31/15 11:15 am**

My problem is that in no case except, apparently, when it comes to our wives, do we just let the consequences take their course. The unintentional hypocrisy of this stance (assuming it's not a feminist conspiracy!) is what bothers me.

We will seek correction for a colleague, son, daughter, uncle, aunt. teacher, preacher, pastor, overseer, president, governor, senator, etc., but when it comes to the WIFE we are apparently to just pray and wait for Jesus to do something about it.

Yes, I believe that we have to handle some situations differently, especially those in which we have a closer bond, etc. But to DO NOTHING seems absolutely...sinful. It is to become guilty of the whole "he that knoweth to do good and doeth it not" concept.

Now, I don't know WHAT, exactly, to do. But neither do I know EXACTLY what to do when I have to correct my son, or a colleague, or a person in the church. Unless God gives us a word, none of us know PRECISELY what to do. But we DO SOMETHING!!! We may seek advice, we may just do the best we can, acting in love and concern (that often makes bitter medicine go down more easily, when you know that the person truly loves you and cares for you). But what we don't do is...NOTHING.

To allow a woman to trainwreck her life, her family's life, her ministry, their ministry--perhaps even their livelihood--without trying to do DO SOMETHING just seems like criminal negligence.

I'm not saying that a wife should not be treated any differently than one would a senator, for she is closer to you, certainly deserves some sort of allowances for that, etc. Further, what you do to her is certainly going to affect you.

As Quiet Wyatt indicated, it might be that there was not a thing in the world that could be done. What we DO KNOW is that praying and pleading wasn't doing the job. Divorce? Murder? (after all, you can get away with murder more easily than divorce in some churches). I'm being facetious, of course.

But I think there are things we can do that send some strong signals that the husband is not going to sit idly by while the wife runs the whole family and church over a cliff.

If a man's wife were driving a car toward a washed out bridge, I'm betting he'd do more than pray about it. But apparently our families and ministries mean far less than our own lives, so we would just say, "Honey, I want to be a better husband...and if you'll just stop the car I'll seek to do that."

Again, I don't know that there IS a good response. Jesus certainly didn't want to have to do what he did with the Jezebel, but He did it because he cares about the church. A husband would not want to have to confront a wife, I'm sure, but to protect her, the family, the home, and the ministry, he just might have to do that.

Maybe one of the reasons there are no means of dealing with an non-submissive wife, other than, apparently, praying and blaming the husband, is because we DON'T teach on it? Maybe if we did, there would be some good and redemptive (hey!) things that come out of it.

In my classes at school, if a student if failing, I offer a "pre-report card recovery." It is roughly 20 pages of WRITING. The student must write key facts 3-5 times apiece. It's not perfect, by any means. But the chance for the student to do the previous assignment is OVER. So now I give them an assignment that is meant to be onerous and difficult...yet at the same time redemptive (that is, at least they are having to write facts that can serve them in helping them grasp the material). At the same time, I want it hard enough so that no student just says, "Hey, I'll goof off for nine weeks, do a little writing, and everything will be OK." It's rough, but it's redemptive.

So, to seek to correct a non-submissive wife, one may take unpopular measures that are, at the end of it all, redemptive.

How would you treat an ADULT child that was wayward? Maybe that should be informative to some degree?