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Using the T-position for headpushers-Altar Call Self Defense

 
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Post Using the T-position for headpushers-Altar Call Self Defense Link
Let me tell you an effective trick to protect yourself if you go up to get prayed for, but you are not sure if the preacher is one of those head-pushers. You know what I am talking about. He thinks its spiritual or wants to look spiritual, and pushes people hard on their heads. Maybe he doesn't think it through but doesn't realize if he pushes on people's heads with their hands raised, what is really knocking them down is his hand.

Basically you put your left foot back in a horizontal position and the right foot facing forward in front of you a bit. I learned this from a self-defense book, but you do not have to move your legs as far apart for a fighting stance. Just a little distance should brace you and should be unnoticeable to most people-- unless they know the trick, too.

I've seen people fall from headpushers who didn't get past my T-position stance. If God wanted to knock me down, He could do so. But I'm not helping a preacher knock me down my laying hands on my forehead heavy-handedly if I can help it.

Just for safety reasons, headpushers should head push if there are no catchers. If you are going to headpush, you have to have catchers.

Another alternative is if we pointed a finger and said loudly 'head pusher' after one of these incidents occurred instead of everyone up there pretending it didn't happen. That would stop the guy in his tracks. But I'm not sure if doing so is 'decent and in order', but I don't consider head-pushing when you are supposed to be ministering to be to be that orderly either.
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8/21/20 9:08 am


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Post FLRon
Completely agree with what you're saying. I despise fakery in God's house. I would even go so far as to say NO pushers allowed! If God's in it, no harm will come. This is a surefire way to do away with pulpit manipulations.
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8/21/20 1:23 pm


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Post I've almost... roughridercog
Locked on to a couple and pushed back. That might break those dogs from sucking eggs.
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8/22/20 7:33 am


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Post Link
In the early '90's I went to a Pentecostal church in a small Georgia community. In the next town over there was a church in the same denomination that had a young youth minister who was excited about people 'falling out' when he laid hands on them. The pastor of my church was talking to him. He told him to close his eyes and put his hands over his head. The pastor put his hand on the young man's back, and pushed his head.

Then he told him when someone is standing their with their eyes closed and hands over their head. If someone has a hand on their lower back, that creates a fulcrum. It's not hard to push them over if you put a hand on their head.

At the same church, me and couple of the others there in our early 20's started praying for the youth in an informal prayer meeting and kids we prayed for would fall down,without the head pushing.

I don't really see in the Bible where the practice of lining up to get hands laid on you to fall down is Biblical, but that looks like the ritual in some churches. I've even seen lines where they don't pray for you when I was in Indonesia, including in GBI/COG. There was one church I went to where the pastor said, "I have received the anointing' and had people line up so he could lay hands on them. A certain well-known leader, the leader of a fellowship of churches within GBI at the time that may have had 100k people at the time, had gathered the leaders together and anointed them or laid hands on them. It was a little odd to me, the emphasis on getting 'the anointing' through a certain leader and passing it on to others, even though I grew up Pentecostal and saw a lot of laying on of hands. GBI over there had catchers, too.

I also notice Pentecostal laying on of hands is done more freely than the things I see it used for in scripture. In the Bible, I see it used for:

- sacrifices in the OT
- for others to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost
- imparting gifts or commissioning, separating, etc. for ministry
- healing

A lot of Pentecostals lay hands on people whenever they pray for them. I'm not saying it's a sin, but we should notice some things are just our own church culture not something specifically Biblical. I take the verse 'lay hands on no man suddenly' to refer back to the passages about appointing bishops and deacons.

James 5 speaks of anointing the sick with oil. The word translated 'sick' there may refer to those who are weak in other ways. I've probably seen people anointed for things other than physical illness, but that may actually have a Biblical basis
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8/22/20 8:06 am


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Post This will be unpopular roughridercog
Some guys count people falling down like notches in their spiritual six shooters, plus some people are addicted to the attention they get when they fall down.

There

I said it.
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8/22/20 9:39 am


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Post Less worried about that than... Aaron Scott
I'm less worried about head pushers than those who "fall out" to look spiritual.

Two of the best laid-on-hands blessings I got were from two notorious "head pushers": R.W. Schambach and T.L. Lowery. So, there.

And this stuff about "it ain't in the Bible," with respect, note that we aren't doing stuff seen in the Bible either. I'm far more concerned with why we aren't seeing what they saw...than seeing what is not mentioned in the Bible.

Unless it is CONTRARY to the Bible, silence is not an argument for or against. Indeed, no one should be purposely trying to push people down. That's is dead wrong and ungodly. But to fall out is not contrary to scripture--so far as I know, it is not addressed by scripture. But what IS spoken in scripture is the many miracles that were seen by the apostles...which we DO NOT see.

That's what concerns me most.
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8/22/20 11:39 am


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Post Re: Less worried about that than... Da Sheik
Aaron Scott wrote:
And this stuff about "it ain't in the Bible," with respect, note that we aren't doing stuff seen in the Bible either. I'm far more concerned with why we aren't seeing what they saw...than seeing what is not mentioned in the Bible.


The book of Acts was written over a period of 30 years. There are approximately 30 miracles recorded in the book. That’s roughly one miracle per year if you do the averages.
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8/22/20 4:47 pm


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Post Eduardo Nieves
I'm having trouble visualizing this. Can you post a pic?
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8/22/20 4:55 pm


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Post (L) Link
I saw this in a Bruce Tenger self-defense book. Someone posted one online, probably a different one from the one I saw. I take no responsibility if you click on this and look on page 13. His books may be copyrighted still.

https://www.jumpjet.info/Offbeat-Internet/More/PC/Bruce_Tegner-Self-Defense.pdf
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8/22/20 6:51 pm


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Post Re: Less worried about that than... Link
Da Sheik wrote:
Aaron Scott wrote:
And this stuff about "it ain't in the Bible," with respect, note that we aren't doing stuff seen in the Bible either. I'm far more concerned with why we aren't seeing what they saw...than seeing what is not mentioned in the Bible.


The book of Acts was written over a period of 30 years. There are approximately 30 miracles recorded in the book. That’s roughly one miracle per year if you do the averages.


Yet from Jerusalem round about unto Illyricum with signs and wonders Paul fully preached the Gospel of Christ. There were apparently many signs and healings done in Ephesus, and many were healed when Paul was shipwrecked on the island.
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Post Re: (L) Eduardo Nieves
I like the part where it says you can shift your weight for kicking. Next time some tries to knock me down, my leg is coming up! Laughing

Link wrote:
I saw this in a Bruce Tenger self-defense book. Someone posted one online, probably a different one from the one I saw. I take no responsibility if you click on this and look on page 13. His books may be copyrighted still.

https://www.jumpjet.info/Offbeat-Internet/More/PC/Bruce_Tegner-Self-Defense.pdf

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8/22/20 7:42 pm


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Post Da Sheik Aaron Scott
Da Sheik wrote:
Aaron Scott wrote:
And this stuff about "it ain't in the Bible," with respect, note that we aren't doing stuff seen in the Bible either. I'm far more concerned with why we aren't seeing what they saw...than seeing what is not mentioned in the Bible.


The book of Acts was written over a period of 30 years. There are approximately 30 miracles recorded in the book. That’s roughly one miracle per year if you do the averages.


IN several instances, there were numerous miracles. So the one per year average is not working, I don't think.

Further, we cannot know what was NOT recorded. It is plausible that thee are many miracles not recorded. As John spoke of Jesus, if everything He had done and taught were recorded, John supposed the even the world could not hold the books.
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8/23/20 10:18 pm


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Post Cojak
I have never entered a prayer line where someone was pushing anyone down. I have a big problem with that. Growing up as a PK, my dad was the Godliest man I knew. I have witnessed many people 'slain' in the spirit by an anointing of oil and prayer. Truthfully I have seen very few miracles in my long life, BUT I HAVE SEEN MIRACLES. More in the normal church services or prayers by dedicated pastors in hospitals & homes.

We all know God needs no help with the miracles or blessings, He does honor obedience. WE all know that also.

NOTE: I have enjoyed the comments and posts of late here on Acts.... Cool Smile
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8/23/20 11:05 pm


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Post (link to new discussion) Da Sheik
Rather than derailing Link's thread, I've started another discussion here http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?p=789630#789630 regarding miracles and the early church.

Back to the topic at hand: I've seen very little lasting fruit from these meetings where everyone is falling down on the floor. Far too often it seems like the ministers and the fallers (and catchers) are guilty of grandstanding.

And to those who would try to deceive by pushing people down, they should probably find a new profession. Is the circus still hiring during the pandemic?
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8/24/20 11:55 am


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Post Eduardo Nieves
Cojak,
I totally agree with you! I have been prayed for and have fallen in the Spirit. It was not forced and was in order. However, I once had a bad experience as a young person. I was at a rally where I felt led to go to the altar. The minister came to me and began "prophesying" over me and was nowhere in the ballpark. While praying for me, he kept pushing my head and I resisted because I wasn't going to throw myself on the floor and risk getting hurt. I had people ask me later, why I resisted the Spirit and it really hurt me. I was young in the Lord and didn't understand. I felt like I had sinned. It wasn't until later in my life that I understood that I didn't do anything wrong.

Cojak wrote:
I have never entered a prayer line where someone was pushing anyone down. I have a big problem with that. Growing up as a PK, my dad was the Godliest man I knew. I have witnessed many people 'slain' in the spirit by an anointing of oil and prayer. Truthfully I have seen very few miracles in my long life, BUT I HAVE SEEN MIRACLES. More in the normal church services or prayers by dedicated pastors in hospitals & homes.

We all know God needs no help with the miracles or blessings, He does honor obedience. WE all know that also.

NOTE: I have enjoyed the comments and posts of late here on Acts.... Cool Smile

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8/24/20 8:24 pm


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Post I have never fallen out... Aaron Scott
I believe it happens, but it has never happened for me. Not because I resisted, but because I simply didn't fall.

I would not even get in a line for prayer if I felt that guy was trying to push people down. If you feel you need to assume the T-position (or any other counter-measure), I would say you shouldn't even be in the line, since you clearly are not going to get much from it, I would imagine.

Like I said earlier, Schambach and Lowery were the two hardest "hits" I ever had...and I got some of the most powerful blessings I've ever experienced. Further, I don't believe they were hitting hard to make you go down, but rather it was just intensity that was expressed that way.

I have a theory that if you took a preacher that was known for people falling out...and you put him in a place where no one knew him and no one knew about falling out, it would happen a WHOLE LOT LESS, IF AT ALL.

I don't necessarily think it's on purpose, but if a preacher front-loads the prayer service with some statement about how people tend to fall out when he prays for them, or the such, plenty of folks will fall--some perhaps sincerely, others from suggestion, and still others because they think it means they are more spiritual.

Jaimie Buckingham, the Christian author, wrote that when he traveled with Kathryn Kuhlman, at the end she was kind of running on fumes. He even admitted he did a "courtesy drop."

Also, I do think there are people who just "yield" to the slightest breeze of the Spirit, and so fall out. They're not forcing it, but they also might be "giving in" just a bit too easily.
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8/25/20 8:43 am


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Post JLarry
Went to a Norval Hayes mtg in Atlanta. To my surprise T.L. was the guest speaker. He laid hands on my wife and I. We both thought we were not going to do a curtsy drop. We had our arms around each other. He laid hands on the two of us at the same time. We both fell out. No pushing.

Yes it happens like this at times and at times someone pushes.

I do not like pushing and will not do a curtsy drop for anyone.
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8/25/20 7:16 pm


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Post Re: (link to new discussion) Link
Da Sheik wrote:

Back to the topic at hand: I've seen very little lasting fruit from these meetings where everyone is falling down on the floor. Far too often it seems like the ministers and the fallers (and catchers) are guilty of grandstanding.


I went to a meeting at a big COG building in Indonesia and got there at the tail end of a meeting of a guess speaker who looked Indian. He lined people up at the end, didn't even appear to pray for them-- just laid hands on their head and some of them fall down. I don't know that he was head-pushing, but my wife and I thought it strange if he wasn't even praying for them.

Quote:

And to those who would try to deceive by pushing people down, they should probably find a new profession. Is the circus still hiring during the pandemic?


The circus shut down a few years ago.
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8/26/20 6:58 am


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