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What % is your church financial loss
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Post I am in the AG jimmyjon
and our denominational lawyer, Dr. Richard Hammer of church, tax and law has advised all 14000 churches of the US AG to in his words, "go for it". He says there are literally no legal issues as to our religious exemptions or constitutional liberties. You are overthinking this. The great thing is if you document your expenses fully and follow the guidelines you will have the loan forgiven and it becomes essentially a grant. Thank you President Trump. First time churches and religious non profits have been included. Not to take them over but to help them. The first amendment remains even during emergency declarations. Hey, DOC
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4/21/20 2:03 pm


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Post What legal requirements will be imposed? Dr.Acts
Could you please point to the article/video where the said legal advice said "go for it"
It will be interested to see his legal talk on the clauses in red

5. What legal requirements will be imposed on my organization as a result of our receipt of this Federal financial assistance? Will those requirements cease to apply when the loan is either repaid in full or forgiven?

Receipt of a loan through any SBA program constitutes Federal financial assistance and carries with it the application of certain nondiscrimination obligations. Any legal obligations that you incur through your receipt of this loan are not permanent, and once the loan is paid or forgiven, those nondiscrimination obligations will no longer apply.

Consistent with certain federal nondiscrimination laws, SBA regulations provide that the recipient may not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, handicap, age, or national origin with regard to goods, services, or accommodations offered. 13 C.F.R. § 113.3(a). But SBA regulations also make clear that these nondiscrimination requirements do not limit a faith-based entity’s autonomy with respect to membership or employment decisions connected to its religious exercise. 13 CFR § 113.3-1(h). And as discussed in Question 4, SBA recognizes the various protections for religious freedom enshrined in the Constitution and federal law that are not altered or waived by receipt of Federal financial assistance. SBA therefore clarifies that its regulations apply with respect to goods, services, or accommodations offered generally to the public by recipients of these loans, but not to a faithbased organization’s ministry activities within its own faith community. For example, SBA’s regulations will require a faith-based organization that operates a restaurant or thrift store open to the public to serve the public without regard to the protected traits listed above. But SBA’s regulations do not apply to limit a faith-based organization’s ability to distribute food or clothing exclusively to its own members or co-religionists. Indeed, SBA will not apply its nondiscrimination regulations in a way that imposes substantial burdens on the religious exercise of faith-based loan recipients, such as by applying those regulations to the performance of church ordinances, sacraments, or religious practices, unless such application is the least restrictive means of furthering a compelling governmental interest. Congress enacted the CARES Act to afford swift and sweeping stopgap relief to Americans who might otherwise lose their jobs or businesses because of the economic hardships wrought by the response to the COVID-19 public health emergency, and SBA has a compelling interest in fulfilling that mandate to provide assistance broadly.

Rev. 4/3/2020 11:25 PM https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/2020-04/SBA%20Faith-Based%20FAQ%20Final.pdf[/u]
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4/21/20 3:43 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Quote:
While receipt of a PPP loan will not limit the authority of a religious organization to define the standards, responsibilities, or duties of its membership, or limit the freedom of the organization to select and hire individuals to perform work connected to that organization's religious exercise, or constitute waiver of any rights under federal law, including but not limited to protecting religious autonomy, or the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the loan recipient may not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, handicap, age or national origin with regard to goods, services, or accommodations offered.

For example, the loan applicant will maintain full autonomy with respect to membership or employment decisions connected to its religious exercise, and it can even continue to distribute food or clothing to its own members; however, if the faith-based organization operates a restaurant, retail, or thrift store that is open to the public, it must serve the general public without discrimination based upon the traits listed above.

https://www.wardandsmith.com/articles/faith-based-organizations-guidance-for-eligible-paycheck-protection-program-loans

Based on this, it seems that religious organizations can be "discriminatory" in their membership and employment without issue. They only must be strictly non-discriminatory if they have an operation that is open to the public.

What is your specific concern, Dr. Acts? Can you give an example of a scenario?
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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4/21/20 4:07 pm


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Post Dr.Acts
Quote:
the loan recipient may not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, sex


My concerns are in the wording underlined in red.
I think Ramsey's video was posted as well with his financial concerns
No example or precedent that early in the game, but we shall see
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Last edited by Dr.Acts on 4/21/20 5:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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4/21/20 5:06 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Yes, but if jimmyjon's church doesn't run a restaurant, retail store, etc., what does he have to be concerned about? Churches are specifically allowed to discriminate according to their beliefs in membership and employment while still receiving PPP loans.

And any decent church that does run a restaurant, retail store, etc. probably does it as an outreach and already provides those services to everyone.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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4/21/20 5:09 pm


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Post This from the guidance by sba I will get hammer's guidance later jimmyjon
4. Will my organization be sacrificing its autonomy or its First Amendment or
statutory rights if it requests and receives a loan?

No. Receipt of a loan through any SBA program does not (1) limit the authority of religious
organizations to define the standards, responsibilities, and duties of membership; (2) limit the
freedom of religious organizations to select individuals to perform work connected to that
organization’s religious exercise; nor (3) constitute waiver of any rights under federal law,
including rights protecting religious autonomy and exercise under the Religious Freedom
Restoration Act of 1993 (RFRA), 42 U.S.C. § 2000b et seq., Section 702 of the Civil Rights Act of
1964, 42 U.S.C. § 2000e-1(a), or the First Amendment.
Simply put, a faith-based organization that receives a loan will retain its independence,
autonomy, right of expression, religious character, and authority over its governance, and no
faith-based organization will be excluded from receiving funding because leadership with,
membership in, or employment by that organization is limited to persons who share its
religious faith and practice.

5. What legal requirements will be imposed on my organization as a result of our
receipt of this Federal financial assistance? Will those requirements cease to
apply when the loan is either repaid in full or forgiven?

Receipt of a loan through any SBA program constitutes Federal financial assistance and carries
with it the application of certain nondiscrimination obligations. Any legal obligations that you
incur through your receipt of this loan are not permanent, and once the loan is paid or forgiven,
those nondiscrimination obligations will no longer apply.
Consistent with certain federal nondiscrimination laws, SBA regulations provide that the
recipient may not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, handicap, age, or
national origin with regard to goods, services, or accommodations offered. 13 C.F.R. § 113.3(a).
But SBA regulations also make clear that these nondiscrimination requirements do not limit a
faith-based entity’s autonomy with respect to membership or employment decisions
connected to its religious exercise
. 13 CFR § 113.3-1(h). And as discussed in Question 4, SBA
recognizes the various protections for religious freedom enshrined in the Constitution and
federal law that are not altered or waived by receipt of Federal financial assistance.
SBA therefore clarifies that its regulations apply with respect to goods, services, or
accommodations offered generally to the public by recipients of these loans, but not to a faith-
based organization’s ministry activities within its own faith community. For example, SBA’s
regulations will require a faith-based organization that operates a restaurant or thrift store
open to the public to serve the public without regard to the protected traits listed above. But
SBA’s regulations do not apply to limit a faith-based organization’s ability to distribute food or
clothing exclusively to its own members or co-religionists. Indeed, SBA will not apply its
nondiscrimination regulations in a way that imposes substantial burdens on the religious
exercise of faith-based loan recipients, such as by applying those regulations to the
performance of church ordinances, sacraments, or religious practices, unless such application
is the least restrictive means of furthering a compelling governmental interest.
Congress
enacted the CARES Act to afford swift and sweeping stopgap relief to Americans who might
otherwise lose their jobs or businesses because of the economic hardships wrought by the
response to the COVID-19 public health emergency, and SBA has a compelling interest in
fulfilling that mandate to provide assistance broadly.
6.
Hey, DOC
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4/21/20 5:19 pm


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Post Dr.Acts
Dave Dorsey wrote:
And any decent church that does run a restaurant, retail store, etc. probably does it as an outreach and already provides those services to everyone.


Do you mean like a Christian bakery that bakes wedding cakes?
Or a NC church that has split bathrooms for separate genders?
I think not - here's the document clause again

....the loan recipient may not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, sex....
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4/21/20 5:30 pm


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Post This is from Dr. Richard Hammer the foremost legal mind in America jimmyjon
On church and tax law and constitutional issues dealing with churches and the General Council of the Assemblies of God general legal council. These paragraphs are from his guidance letter to AG pastors. He said, go for it" in a video presentation with Doug Clay our General Superintendent.

The SBA released a loan application on April 1, 2020, that contains a statement that any
organization receiving SBA financial assistance, including Paycheck Protection Program
loams, must agree not to discriminate in any business practice (including employment and
services to the public) on the basis of Parts 112, 113, and 117 of Title 13 of the Code of
Federal Regulations. These parts prohibit discrimination on the basis of race, color, national
origin, sex, or age by any organization receiving SBA financial assistance.
This raises the question of the eligibility of churches that discriminate on the basis of
“employment standards” including extramarital sexual relations, sexual orientation, and
same-sex marriages to participate in Paycheck Protection Program loans. Are they barred
from participating in the loan program on the ground that their employment standards
constitute prohibited sex discrimination? Probably not, for three reasons:
First, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which bans discrimination in employment on
the basis of race, color, national origin, sex, or religion, permits religious employers to
discriminate in employment decisions on the basis of religion. Many courts have recognized
that this exception allows churches to discriminate in employment on the basis of their
biblically-rooted employment standards so long as they do so consistently and do not
disproportionately punish members of a protected group. The SBA has issued a document
entitled Frequently Asked Questions Regarding Participation of Faith-Based Organizations in
the Paycheck Protection Program explicitly affirming this point:
Consistent with certain federal nondiscrimination laws, SBA regulations provide that
the recipient may not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, handicap,
age, or national origin with regard to goods, services, or accommodations offered. 13
C.F.R. § 113.3(a). But SBA regulations also make clear that these nondiscrimination
requirements do not limit a faith-based entity’s autonomy with respect to
membership or employment decisions connected to its religious exercise. 13 CFR §
113.3-1(h). And . . . SBA recognizes the various protections for religious freedom
enshrined in the Constitution and federal law that are not altered or waived by
receipt of Federal financial assistance.
[b]Second, the SBA issued an “Interim Final Rule” on April 2, 2020, that states, in part:
All loans guaranteed by the SBA pursuant to the CARES Act will be made consistent
with constitutional, statutory, and regulatory protections for religious liberty,
including the First Amendment to the Constitution, the Religious Freedom
Restoration Act . . . and SBA regulation at 13 C.F.R. 113.3-1h, which provides:
“Nothing in [SBA nondiscrimination regulations] shall apply to a religious corporation,
association, educational institution or society with respect to the membership or the
employment of individuals of a particular religion to perform work connected with the
carrying on by such corporation, association, educational institution or society of its
religious activities.”
Third, the so-called ministerial exception, which prohibits the civil courts from resolving
employment disputes between churches and clergy, likely would allow churches to
participate in an SBA loan program even if they discriminate on the basis of biblical
standards in the employment of clergy.[/b][color=red]
[/color][/b]
Hey, DOC
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4/21/20 5:56 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Dr.Acts wrote:
Do you mean like a Christian bakery that bakes wedding cakes?
Or a NC church that has split bathrooms for separate genders?
I think not - here's the document clause again

....the loan recipient may not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, sex....

Can you answer this question?

Yes, but if jimmyjon's church doesn't run a restaurant, retail store, etc., what does he have to be concerned about? Churches are specifically allowed to discriminate according to their beliefs in membership and employment while still receiving PPP loans.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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4/21/20 6:11 pm


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Post Leave it alone Dave jimmyjon
Some people can't be reasoned with as you by now are well aware. Don't confuse people with facts when thier opinion is being threatened.



Quote:
Second, the SBA issued an “Interim Final Rule” on April 2, 2020, that states, in part:
All loans guaranteed by the SBA pursuant to the CARES Act will be made consistent
with constitutional, statutory, and regulatory protections for religious liberty,
including the First Amendment to the Constitution, the Religious Freedom
Restoration Act . . . and SBA regulation at 13 C.F.R. 113.3-1h, which provides:
“Nothing in [SBA nondiscrimination regulations] shall apply to a religious corporation,
association, educational institution or society with respect to the membership or the
employment of individuals of a particular religion to perform work connected with the
carrying on by such corporation, association, educational institution or society of its
religious activities.”
Third, the so-called ministerial exception, which prohibits the civil courts from resolving
employment disputes between churches and clergy, likely would allow churches to
participate in an SBA loan program even if they discriminate on the basis of biblical
standards in the employment of clergy.
Hey, DOC
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4/21/20 6:34 pm


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Post Dr.Acts
Bro. Dave Dorsey,
I already did - they still have bathrooms in NC right?
The issue is making the church liable through a loan

"faith-based entity’s autonomy with respect to membership or employment decisions connected to its religious exercise" (limited to religious exercise) - not specifically allowed to discriminate in general as you stated.

Furthermore,
SBA regulations provide that the recipient may not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, sex...
I stop at the word sex for a reason. The provision is so clearly spelled out that they gay agenda can't be more happy

I also have not seen our AG brother provide us a link with their legal specialist saying "go for it"
All and while leading experts on church law are saying: "It's a lawsuit waiting to happen"

Anyhow, the OP I posted was about % loss - I would have not commented on the quarterly vs monthly reports had I known the brother was AG and has no clue how we conduct business
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4/21/20 6:40 pm


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Post Uhhhh Dr. Acts I actually did reference Dr. Hammer jimmyjon
In my previous post. He said go for it in a video from our General Superintendent Doug Clay to 14000 AG churches. I also posted his most recent guidelines about the ppp specifically. When the most eminent church, tax and constitutional lawyer in the country says dont be concerned about your religious freedoms, I believe him and I've personally known him for 30 years and he never given to hyperbole. Read my posts a little more carefully. Hey, DOC
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4/21/20 9:40 pm


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Post Carolyn Smith
Dr.Acts wrote:
Bro. Dave Dorsey,
I already did - they still have bathrooms in NC right?
The issue is making the church liable through a loan

"faith-based entity’s autonomy with respect to membership or employment decisions connected to its religious exercise" (limited to religious exercise) - not specifically allowed to discriminate in general as you stated.

Furthermore,
SBA regulations provide that the recipient may not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, sex...
I stop at the word sex for a reason. The provision is so clearly spelled out that they gay agenda can't be more happy

I also have not seen our AG brother provide us a link with their legal specialist saying "go for it"
All and while leading experts on church law are saying: "It's a lawsuit waiting to happen"

Anyhow, the OP I posted was about % loss - I would have not commented on the quarterly vs monthly reports had I known the brother was AG and has no clue how we conduct business


HB2 is old news.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article68401147.html
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4/21/20 9:42 pm


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Post Dr.Acts
Bro. Dave
We now have sufficient data to respond to your question. May need a few days to finalize it until 5/13 and call it by-monthly % drop.
Meanwhile this straight from BARNA group saying online giving is also starting to even out

4 in 10 pastors (41%) noting that their church’s financial giving in the last week stayed about the same
42% however, notes that giving was down (12% significantly, 30% slightly). 16% say giving was up (13% significantly, 3% slightly).

The week prior (April 21-27), just two in five pastors noted that giving had stayed the same or was down (38% each), while a quarter (25%) noted an increase.
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5/6/20 7:54 am


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Post Increase almond
PTL we had an increase in our giving. Member
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5/10/20 7:59 am


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Post Re: Increase Cojak
almond wrote:
PTL we had an increase in our giving.


Great report almond..... OUr pastor and clerk announced Sunday our finances increased as the members and supporters increased giving. We too are Praising the Lord. Good stuff here. Cool Smile
We also had our first parking lot service Sunday.. Had very good attendance.
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5/11/20 5:28 pm


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Post Holding strong so far... GetSmart
Our giving has not decreased during March, April, and so far in May.

We received a very modest PPP deposit.

As far as expenses, early on we contacted our banker, and requested and received a 90 day deferment on mortgage payments. No interest and no principle payments, but interest does accrue and is tacked on to the backend of the note.

Not printing bulletins at about a buck per, has saved us a few hundred dollars per month.

Also, we moved from weekly to monthly pickup on our dumpster. Big savings there.
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5/20/20 1:03 pm


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Post Carolyn Smith
Most every church I've heard report on this says their giving has increased rather than decreased. God's people have remained faithful in their giving throughout the pandemic!
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5/21/20 3:37 pm


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Post Dow Moses
We are up 10-20%. Our folks are so faithful.
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5/21/20 10:11 pm


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