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How Religion v. Relationship Has Replaced the Cross and Resurrection in a Lot of Preaching.

 
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Post How Religion v. Relationship Has Replaced the Cross and Resurrection in a Lot of Preaching. Link
Evangelicals redefined 'religion' as a bad word in recent decades. I started hearing this 30 years ago. I did not join in the redefinition.

IMO, it leads to bad ideas-- e.g. the idea having devotional practices like scheduled, regular prayer is wrong.

It also creates difficulty communicating with unbelievers who do not define religion as 'man trying to please God in his own strength' or something along those lines. If we say Christian is not a religion, and they look at us confused. Then time is wasted with redefinition of religion, time that could be used actually preaching the gospel.

There are preachers who do not mention the cross or the resurrection, but talk against religion and for relationship, then give an altar call. Religion and relationship talk has replaced the gospel in some circles. I don't see talk against religion and in favor of relationship in any of the apostles sermons. I do see the Lordship and Messiahship of Jesus, Christ's death on the cross, and the resurrection of the dead. Romans 10:9-10 talks about Lordship and the resurrection, not relationship versus religion. Paul summarizes the Gospel in the opening verses of I Corinthians 15. I see Christ dying for our sins and rising from the dead the third day. I don't see anything about it being a relationship and not a religion.

I don't see Paul, Peter, Philip, etc. telling crowds to repeat a prayer after them, either. I do see accounts of them telling people to be baptized or baptizing them. Do our evangelistic practices line up with scripture? Could it be that some people show up for one service, repeat a prayer, and go back out in the world because they never got saved and never even heard the Gospel?
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11/1/19 11:22 am


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Post Re: How Religion v. Relationship Has Replaced the Cross and Resurrection in a Lot of Preaching. Resident Skeptic
Link wrote:
Evangelicals redefined 'religion' as a bad word in recent decades. I started hearing this 30 years ago. I did not join in the redefinition.

IMO, it leads to bad ideas-- e.g. the idea having devotional practices like scheduled, regular prayer is wrong.

It also creates difficulty communicating with unbelievers who do not define religion as 'man trying to please God in his own strength' or something along those lines. If we say Christian is not a religion, and they look at us confused. Then time is wasted with redefinition of religion, time that could be used actually preaching the gospel.

There are preachers who do not mention the cross or the resurrection, but talk against religion and for relationship, then give an altar call. Religion and relationship talk has replaced the gospel in some circles. I don't see talk against religion and in favor of relationship in any of the apostles sermons. I do see the Lordship and Messiahship of Jesus, Christ's death on the cross, and the resurrection of the dead. Romans 10:9-10 talks about Lordship and the resurrection, not relationship versus religion. Paul summarizes the Gospel in the opening verses of I Corinthians 15. I see Christ dying for our sins and rising from the dead the third day. I don't see anything about it being a relationship and not a religion.

I don't see Paul, Peter, Philip, etc. telling crowds to repeat a prayer after them, either. I do see accounts of them telling people to be baptized or baptizing them. Do our evangelistic practices line up with scripture? Could it be that some people show up for one service, repeat a prayer, and go back out in the world because they never got saved and never even heard the Gospel?


You hit the nail right on the head.
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11/1/19 11:33 am


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Post Dave Dorsey
Great post... couldn't agree more. Now 67% friendlier!
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11/1/19 12:30 pm


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It is actually good that other people see this and that I am not treated like a pariah for pointing it out. Not that that should dissuade me.

How can we un-hijack evangelicalism and our own churches and movements to reverse this and encourage preachers to get back to the Gospel?
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11/1/19 2:36 pm


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I visited a small mega-church in walking distance from my dad's house last year. You wouldn't know it, but it's actually a Southern Baptist Church. As I'd seen in the A/G and FourSquare, the preacher gave an altar call and without doing much explanation of the cross and without even mentioning the resurrection, had people repeat a prayer that did not explain the gospel, and said something along the lines if they believed it they were saved.

I sent him an email explaining what I had witnessed-- and had not witnessed. He sent me a short response that he would consider what I had written him.

This issue is too important to ignore. I don't think preachers are intentionally leaving out the Gospel. I think they go on 'autopilot.' It's the power of tradition-- doing things they way you have seen others do it. It's tradition versus actually going back to the Bible to compare contemporary preaching with preaching in the Bible, and maybe the preacher lacking awareness of what he has actually said. There are a lot of preachers who would say they don' t believe you can be saved unless you confess Jesus as Lord and believe that He rose from the dead, but they preach personal relationship and give an altar call because that is what they have seen done--like a robot on autopilot. Tradition is powerful that way, and we can be blind to the fact that we are following a traditional script without following scripture-- thinking that the way our group does things must be right.
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11/1/19 2:47 pm


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Post Cojak
Dave Dorsey wrote:
Great post... couldn't agree more.
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11/1/19 9:43 pm


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Post Preacher777
Great post and glad to see others are seeing this trend. I feel many people are being told to say the prayer as a ticket to heaven based on a grace that costs us nothing (nothing inadvertently becomes a way of leaving repentance and a desire to let the old man die) out of the equation. Friendly Face
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11/2/19 6:05 am


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Preacher777 wrote:
Great post and glad to see others are seeing this trend. I feel many people are being told to say the prayer as a ticket to heaven based on a grace that costs us nothing (nothing inadvertently becomes a way of leaving repentance and a desire to let the old man die) out of the equation.


I am seeing a trend toward leaving the cross out. It seems like a lot of preachers have been leaving the resurrection out.

I really believe a lot of preachers do not realize what they are not saying.

This also demonstrates the power of tradition and imitation. The new preacher repeats what his pastor did without thinking without considering if is Biblical. If you ask either of them if you have to believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins and rose again to be saved they say yes. But they ask people to repeat a prayer and declare them saved without realuzingbwhat they did not save.

I do not see this religion versus relationship message in any of the evangelustic preaching in the Bible.
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Post Re: How Religion v. Relationship Has Replaced the Cross and Resurrection in a Lot of Preaching. FLRon
[quote="Link"]Evangelicals redefined 'religion' as a bad word in recent decades. I started hearing this 30 years ago. I did not join in the redefinition.

IMO, it leads to bad ideas-- e.g. the idea having devotional practices like scheduled, regular prayer is wrong.

It also creates difficulty communicating with unbelievers who do not define religion as 'man trying to please God in his own strength' or something along those lines. If we say Christian is not a religion, and they look at us confused. Then time is wasted with redefinition of religion, time that could be used actually preaching the gospel.

There are preachers who do not mention the cross or the resurrection, but talk against religion and for relationship, then give an altar call. Religion and relationship talk has replaced the gospel in some circles. I don't see talk against religion and in favor of relationship in any of the apostles sermons. I do see the Lordship and Messiahship of Jesus, Christ's death on the cross, and the resurrection of the dead. Romans 10:9-10 talks about Lordship and the resurrection, not relationship versus religion. Paul summarizes the Gospel in the opening verses of I Corinthians 15. I see Christ dying for our sins and rising from the dead the third day. I don't see anything about it being a relationship and not a religion.

I don't see Paul, Peter, Philip, etc. telling crowds to repeat a prayer after them, either. I do see accounts of them telling people to be baptized or baptizing them. Do our evangelistic practices line up with scripture? Could it be that some people show up for one service, repeat a prayer, and go back out in the world because they never got saved and never even heard the Gospel?[/quote
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11/2/19 3:22 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
One need look no further than the many Acts posters extolling the virtues of Paula White in another thread to begin to understand one significant source of this problem.

We have abandoned the preaching of the gospel in many cases because we ourselves do not understand the gospel. We have grown dull to distinguishing truth from error. We will accept heterodoxy and even outright heresy in the name of syncretism and ecumenicism, while calling it "not judging" and saying people may be different than us / not our personal preference but they are still doing good and should be praised.

When biblical orthodoxy among ministers is so lacking that Paula White can be praised as a true and valuable worker of Christ, how can we expect them to be proclaiming a biblical, orthodox gospel in the pulpit?
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11/4/19 8:40 am


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Post FLRon
Dave Dorsey wrote:
One need look no further than the many Acts posters extolling the virtues of Paula White in another thread to begin to understand one significant source of this problem.

We have abandoned the preaching of the gospel in many cases because we ourselves do not understand the gospel. We have grown dull to distinguishing truth from error. We will accept heterodoxy and even outright heresy in the name of syncretism and ecumenicism, while calling it "not judging" and saying people may be different than us / not our personal preference but they are still doing good and should be praised.

When biblical orthodoxy among ministers is so lacking that Paula White can be praised as a true and valuable worker of Christ, how can we expect them to be proclaiming a biblical, orthodox gospel in the pulpit?


I'm currently studying the books of Acts and Romans again. Observing how Paul dealt with those who distorted the truth makes one realize that we lack the fortitude to confront much of anything from our pulpits today. While we have no problem ranting and raging against the world,we turn a blind eye to those teaching heresy in our churches.
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11/4/19 9:16 am


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FLRon wrote:
Dave Dorsey wrote:
One need look no further than the many Acts posters extolling the virtues of Paula White in another thread to begin to understand one significant source of this problem.

We have abandoned the preaching of the gospel in many cases because we ourselves do not understand the gospel. We have grown dull to distinguishing truth from error. We will accept heterodoxy and even outright heresy in the name of syncretism and ecumenicism, while calling it "not judging" and saying people may be different than us / not our personal preference but they are still doing good and should be praised.

When biblical orthodoxy among ministers is so lacking that Paula White can be praised as a true and valuable worker of Christ, how can we expect them to be proclaiming a biblical, orthodox gospel in the pulpit?


I'm currently studying the books of Acts and Romans again. Observing how Paul dealt with those who distorted the truth makes one realize that we lack the fortitude to confront much of anything from our pulpits today. While we have no problem ranting and raging against the world,we turn a blind eye to those teaching heresy in our churches.


I can understand concern over her personal life. I don't follow Paula White and I do not know what all she teaches. I have probably seen several minutes of her. She was a very good public speaker in terms of skill and being interesting, and pretty...though I saw a picture after some age and and what appears to be skin pulled tight. What she was talking was fairly acceptable Pentecostal and Charismatic teaching as I recall.

I also remember reading that she was trying to use the firstfruits teaching allegorically to get people to give a donation to her ministry. I understand and share the objections to using the Old Testament that way. But I object to Pentecostal preachers doing the very same thing with tithing laws in the Old Testament, using them allegorically to condemn people who don't give to a fund that they have some control over.

What are her teachings that you object to?
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11/5/19 1:13 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Dave Dorsey wrote:
One need look no further than the many Acts posters extolling the virtues of Paula White in another thread to begin to understand one significant source of this problem.

We have abandoned the preaching of the gospel in many cases because we ourselves do not understand the gospel. We have grown dull to distinguishing truth from error. We will accept heterodoxy and even outright heresy in the name of syncretism and ecumenicism, while calling it "not judging" and saying people may be different than us / not our personal preference but they are still doing good and should be praised.

When biblical orthodoxy among ministers is so lacking that Paula White can be praised as a true and valuable worker of Christ, how can we expect them to be proclaiming a biblical, orthodox gospel in the pulpit?


Some among us have a rejoicing problem...always looking for perfect vehicles of Christ's love. It is sad.

Philippians 1:15-18 New Living Translation (NLT)
15 It’s true that some are preaching out of jealousy and rivalry. But others preach about Christ with pure motives. 16 They preach because they love me, for they know I have been appointed to defend the Good News. 17 Those others do not have pure motives as they preach about Christ. They preach with selfish ambition, not sincerely, intending to make my chains more painful to me. 18 But that doesn’t matter. Whether their motives are false or genuine, the message about Christ is being preached either way, so I rejoice. And I will continue to rejoice.
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11/5/19 1:31 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
I am not looking for perfect vehicles of Christ's love.

I am looking for orthodox proclaimers of Christ's truth. We all should be.

Paula White can receive God's love and grace all day long. I truly hope she does. But she should not be in a pulpit when large parts of her doctrine are not orthodox. These are not the same thing.

You are right. I do NOT rejoice that Paula White is leading others into error.
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Post Nature Boy Florida
Quote:
Mark 9:38 John said to Jesus, “Teacher, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons, but we told him to stop because he wasn’t in our group.”

39 “Don’t stop him!” Jesus said. “No one who performs a miracle in my name will soon be able to speak evil of me. 40 Anyone who is not against us is for us. (NLT)


Too bad if we don't pass the litmus test of others, we want Jesus to shut them down.

Hopefully Paula and Kanye and NBF won't be turned off.
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11/5/19 2:56 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Watch Paula telling a congregation that God will reveal His plan for their lives to them if they give her money.

https://twitter.com/RightWingWatch/status/1191448953847517185

You are absolutely correct that I do not rejoice in this.

Shame on you if you do.

You are absolutely correct that I will warn anyone I care about to stay away from this false teacher.

Shame on you if you do not.
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Post Nature Boy Florida
I will definitely warn people to stay away from some folks ideas.
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Post Dave Dorsey
NBF, it sounds like you do not think there are any false teachers or wolves in sheep's clothing in the visible church.

I can't accept that because I know you are a sharp guy who knows the Bible and can discern truth from error. The only other explanation I can give to your posts here is that you are not actually familiar with what White teaches.

I would encourage you to take steps to rectify that it this is an area of interest for you. If I am correct about your understanding of the Bible and ability to discern, I do not think you will wind up seeing gray area in her so called ministry. Blessings to you.
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11/5/19 5:00 pm


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Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Dave Dorsey wrote:
One need look no further than the many Acts posters extolling the virtues of Paula White in another thread to begin to understand one significant source of this problem.

We have abandoned the preaching of the gospel in many cases because we ourselves do not understand the gospel. We have grown dull to distinguishing truth from error. We will accept heterodoxy and even outright heresy in the name of syncretism and ecumenicism, while calling it "not judging" and saying people may be different than us / not our personal preference but they are still doing good and should be praised.

When biblical orthodoxy among ministers is so lacking that Paula White can be praised as a true and valuable worker of Christ, how can we expect them to be proclaiming a biblical, orthodox gospel in the pulpit?


Some among us have a rejoicing problem...always looking for perfect vehicles of Christ's love. It is sad.

Philippians 1:15-18 New Living Translation (NLT)
15 It’s true that some are preaching out of jealousy and rivalry. But others preach about Christ with pure motives. 16 They preach because they love me, for they know I have been appointed to defend the Good News. 17 Those others do not have pure motives as they preach about Christ. They preach with selfish ambition, not sincerely, intending to make my chains more painful to me. 18 But that doesn’t matter. Whether their motives are false or genuine, the message about Christ is being preached either way, so I rejoice. And I will continue to rejoice.


Paul might have rejoiced about that, but he wanted Timothy to purge himself from vessels of dishonor, after pointing out some vessels were teaching that the resurrection had occurred already.
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