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 Was George Whitefield a Christian? (L) |
Dave Dorsey |
I thought this was a really interesting article: https://ftc.co/resource-library/blog-entries/was-george-whitefield-a-christian
I think there are a lot of folks in our tribe who could (and should) walk through the same questions and thoughts about MLK and his legacy, both his good and his seemingly unrepentant sin.
Submitted respectfully. |
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5/27/19 3:29 pm
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| Re: Was George Whitefield a Christian? (L) |
Resident Skeptic |
Whitefield was wise enough to see that slavery was not going to end in his lifetime. And like most people of his day who opposed slavery, he favored gradual emancipation. Thus, he saw no conflict in taking the approach of meeting slaves right where they were at, in slavery. By working within the system, he demonstrated how a Christian slave owner should treat his slaves. His example was key in bringing about a more paternalistic approach to the system in North America.
To those in the church who would now seek to throw Whitfield under the bus, I say that none of them could hold a candle to the man's life and ministry. If we could find anywhere is Apostolic writing where slavery in condemned and Christian slaveholders are commanded to free their slaves, then I'd be the first to question Whitfield. But no such admonitions were given by the Apostles. Thus, attacks on Whitfield are no more justified than attacks on Jefferson.
Dave, none of my comments here are addressed towards you. I realize you are simply opening a discussion. Interestingly, I studied this topic in-depth in one of my graduate courses.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/27/19 4:24 pm
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| Re: Was George Whitefield a Christian? (L) |
Dave Dorsey |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Dave, none of my comments here are addressed towards you. I realize you are simply opening a discussion. |
Absolutely. I appreciate your contribution to the discussion. I thought the article was really interesting and appreciate hearing others' views. |
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5/27/19 4:49 pm
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| Was George Whitefield a Christian? |
Change Agent |
I think George Whitefield was no more of a Christian than Martin Luther King. Where each ended up after their sinning is only a good guess.
When we look back on David's life the only difference between him and the above mentioned was his repentant heart.
The white evangelical "whitewashing" now not only looks back in history to "whitewash" but they "whitewash" in the present.
Dave, you make it hard on some here on this board but keep up the good work. |
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5/27/19 4:50 pm
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| This is political correctness run amok |
brotherjames |
Using this line of reasoning we could ask the question of Paul based on the scriptures below
Was Paul saved?
1 Corinthians 7:20
At a certain time, God chose to speak to you so that you came to Christ. So, each of you should continue as you were then.
21 You may have been a slave when God spoke to you. That does not matter. But you may have the chance to become a free person. If you do, then use it.
22 Sometimes the *Lord chooses a slave to belong to him. Then, that slave becomes the *Lord’s free person. In the same way, when a free person comes to Christ, he becomes Christ’s slave.
23 God has bought you and he has paid the price for you. So, do not let anyone else make you their slave.
24 My friends, who are like brothers to me, each one of you should live for God. He put you where you were. Then he spoke to you. So, each of you should continue as you were then.
What gall, what unmitigated gall to question George Whitefield's salvation. How many people has the author or any of you especially Bro. Dorsey won to the Lord compared to Whitefield? Total nonsense and the author and others should be ashamed of themselves. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
5/27/19 5:49 pm
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| Re: This is political correctness run amok |
Dave Dorsey |
| brotherjames wrote: | | What gall, what unmitigated gall to question George Whitefield's salvation. How many people has the author or any of you especially Bro. Dorsey won to the Lord compared to Whitefield? Total nonsense and the author and others should be ashamed of themselves. |
It's clear that my previous statements to you about avoiding personal attacks are not being heard. Please accept this post as your very final warning before your ban is reinstated. I have already discussed this with Shaun and Doyle and we are all in agreement concerning this course of action.
Discuss the merits of things posted here. Be as ferocious as you want. But do not let that cross into personal attack. This is your last warning. |
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5/27/19 5:54 pm
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| Re: Was George Whitefield a Christian? |
Resident Skeptic |
| Change Agent wrote: | I think George Whitefield was no more of a Christian than Martin Luther King. Where each ended up after their sinning is only a good guess.
When we look back on David's life the only difference between him and the above mentioned was his repentant heart.
The white evangelical "whitewashing" now not only looks back in history to "whitewash" but they "whitewash" in the present.
Dave, you make it hard on some here on this board but keep up the good work. |
Where does the Bible say it is a sin to be a slave owner?
You are one of the weak-minded in the church ready to sanitize even the Founding Fathers if need be in order to prove your moral superiority.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI
Last edited by Resident Skeptic on 5/27/19 6:10 pm; edited 2 times in total |
Acts-dicted
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5/27/19 5:56 pm
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| I apologize for being too personal |
brotherjames |
| I dont see it as an attack however. You posted nonsense as having merit. I merely responded with a question regarding whether we, including myself and you, have any right to judge the man based on our limited standing vs his. Perhaps you have won more to the Lord than him and if so I stand corrected. |
Acts-celerater
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5/27/19 5:57 pm
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| Re: Was George Whitefield a Christian? |
Dave Dorsey |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Where does the Bible say it is a sin to be a slave owner? |
The article references the verse in Exodus 21, which I personally think is a lot more applicable to American chattel slavery than verses in Ephesians, etc. The Bible does not say it is a sin to own a slave, but it does identify manstealing as a cruel and wicked sin in both the OT and the NT (Romans 1, etc.) |
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5/27/19 6:00 pm
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| Re: I apologize for being too personal |
Dave Dorsey |
| brotherjames wrote: | | I dont see it as an attack however. You posted nonsense as having merit. I merely responded with a question regarding whether we, including myself and you, have any right to judge the man based on our limited standing vs his. Perhaps you have won more to the Lord than him and if so I stand corrected. |
It's clear you don't see it as an attack. I'm trying to let you know, as someone who is working in good faith to keep you on this forum, that it was a personal attack and your approach needs to change if you want to keep posting here.
Share your reasoning about why the article doesn't have any merit. Present a counterargument or a different way of viewing the issue. However, the second you say "the argument is invalid because of X attribute about the author or the poster who submitted it" you are engaging in a personal attack, rather than a discussion (or even an attack) on the article. No one's soulwinning is relevant to whether this is a good article or not. Bringing it into the discussion takes the target off of the merits of the article and puts it on the person making the argument. |
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5/27/19 6:01 pm
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| I respectfully disagree |
brotherjames |
| I think perhaps that you are confused as to what an ad hominem attack actually looks like but I will try to restrain myself going forward. But when I see gobbledygook put forward as something of value I will call it out as such. There seems to be a fair amount of that put forth on this forum fairly often. |
Acts-celerater
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5/27/19 6:07 pm
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| Re: Was George Whitefield a Christian? |
Resident Skeptic |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Where does the Bible say it is a sin to be a slave owner? |
The article references the verse in Exodus 21, which I personally think is a lot more applicable to American chattel slavery than verses in Ephesians, etc. The Bible does not say it is a sin to own a slave, but it does identify manstealing as a cruel and wicked sin in both the OT and the NT (Romans 1, etc.) |
The USA did not man steal. Slaves were taken by various means by warring tribes in Africa. They were waiting at the docks to be sold to customers from the Colonies and for a brief time, the USA.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
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5/27/19 6:08 pm
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| Re: I respectfully disagree |
Dave Dorsey |
| brotherjames wrote: | | I think perhaps that you are confused as to what an ad hominem attack actually looks like but I will try to restrain myself going forward. |
Thank you. |
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5/27/19 6:09 pm
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| Re: Was George Whitefield a Christian? |
Dave Dorsey |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | The USA did not man steal. Slaves were taken by various means by warring tribes in Africa. They were waiting at the docks to be sold to customers from the Colonies and for a brief time, the USA. |
For 89 years, not counting the time prior to 1776. That's not brief.
But while you're right that the US did not capture African slaves, is there any moral difference between purchasing stolen people and stealing them yourself? They went to these markets and saw kidnapped men bound in chains, who they then purchased, held captive, and forced to work. Is the fact that they were one step removed from the manstealing enough to exonerate them of culpability before God? |
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5/27/19 6:12 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
And not to put too fine a point on it, but:
"Whoever steals a man and sells him, AND ANYONE FOUND IN POSSESSION OF HIM, shall be put to death." (Exodus 21:16) |
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5/27/19 6:16 pm
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| Re: Was George Whitefield a Christian? |
Resident Skeptic |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | The USA did not man steal. Slaves were taken by various means by warring tribes in Africa. They were waiting at the docks to be sold to customers from the Colonies and for a brief time, the USA. |
For 89 years, not counting the time prior to 1776. That's not brief.
But while you're right that the US did not capture African slaves, is there any moral difference between purchasing stolen people and stealing them yourself? They went to these markets and saw men bound in chains, which they then purchased and forced to work. Is the fact that they were one step removed from the manstealing enough to exonerate them of culpability before God? |
Dave, the "brief time" remark was concerning the USA as an entity. By 1808 no more slaves were being imported to this country.
As for the rest of your comment, slavery in America was just as immoral as it was in the Roman Empire during Apostolic times. Yet, the Apostles did not accuse Christian slave owners of sinning for owning slaves, nor demand that they liberate their slaves. My biggest concern is this move in the church to exalt ourselves as being morally superior than those who did own slaves. And that means YOU, Change Agent !
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
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5/27/19 6:18 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | And not to put too fine a point on it, but:
"Whoever steals a man and sells him, AND ANYONE FOUND IN POSSESSION OF HIM, shall be put to death." (Exodus 21:16) |
Did Paul quote that to Christian slave owners in the Roman Empire? No. It did not apply to Gentiles in the first place. Furthermore, 90% of the slaves ever owned in America had not been snatched. They were born into slavery.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
5/27/19 6:20 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Did Paul quote that Christian slave owners in the Roman Empire? No. It did not apply to Gentiles in the first place. |
God's law applies to all people across all time. It is where God graciously reveals His character and tells us all we need to do to be righteous before Him, even though not one of us could do it. Manstealing and all those who engaged in it participated in grievous wickedness, which under the Law would have resulted in death. Under grace, it can result in forgiveness even for these most wretched of sinners. Which brings us full circle back to Wilson's article and the judgment of the law and the mercy of grace.
Paul condemned manstealing in 1 Timothy 1, which of course is a letter written to a Gentile to help him give instruction to other Gentiles. The fact that he did not condemn it in Ephesians is sufficient evidence that he was talking about a different form of servitude that was not like American chattel slavery. That is to say, kidnapping and selling someone (or buying, holding captive, and forcing someone thus captured to work) is obviously not the same as the bondservice that Paul is discussing in Ephesians 6, unless Paul is contradicting himself in the two epistles. |
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5/27/19 6:23 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Did Paul quote that Christian slave owners in the Roman Empire? No. It did not apply to Gentiles in the first place. |
God's law applies to all people across all time. It is where God graciously reveals His character and tells us all we need to do to be righteous before Him, even though not one of us could do it. Manstealing and all those who engaged in it participated in grievous wickedness, which under the Law would have resulted in death. Under grace, it can result in forgiveness even for these most wretched of sinners. Which brings us full circle back to Wilson's article and the judgment of the law and the mercy of grace.
Paul condemned manstealing in 1 Timothy 1, which of course is a letter written to a Gentile to help him give instruction to other Gentiles. The fact that he did not condemn it in Ephesians is sufficient evidence that he was talking about a different form of servitude that was not like American chattel slavery. That is to say, kidnapping and selling someone (or buying, holding captive, and forcing someone thus captured to work) is obviously not the same as the bondservice that Paul is discussing in Ephesians 6, unless Paul is contradicting himself in the two epistles. |
Are Gentiles commanded not to wear linen and wool together? And again, 90% of American slaves were born into slavery. But the point is, we are going a dangerous route when we begin to denounce people like Whitfield.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
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5/27/19 6:52 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Are Gentiles commanded not to wear linen and wool together? And again, 90% of American slaves were born into slavery. But the point is, we are going a dangerous route when we begin to denounce people like Whitfield. |
No, but they are commanded in 1 Timothy 1:10 not to participate in slave trading.
And it's important to point out that the article isn't denouncing Whitefield. To do so, and to throw away his tremendous contributions to the faith, would be a mistake. At the same time, we do have to wrestle with the fact that he (like Barth and others) engaged in unrepentant sin. We have to wrestle with what that means for them, for us, and for our faith. The conclusion of the writer to the subject question was one of hopeful trust in Christ for Whitefield's salvation. I think the article does a great job threading that needle which is why I wanted to share it. |
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Posts: 13654
5/27/19 6:55 pm
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