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Surrogacy to unsaved/gay parents.....what does the church say? |
caseyleejones |
We had a situation a few years ago where a woman in our church chose to be a surrogate for other women. However, one specific time she became one for a gay couple. When the leadership found out, they discussed the concern with the family and reasoned that this was more or less a moral failure and requested she step down from all church positions.
The husbands argument is that this is no different than a UPS man delivering a package to the door of a sinner. To me that is a weak argument...but then again...I have to digress because I don't know.
I really do not call it a moral failure. However, there is a part of me that sees it as wrong. Then again, does the Word address such issues or something parallel to it.
Back then, nobody here could really give me a substantive biblical answer. Years later, I still don't know.
Can you address this scripturally? I cannot... |
Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11796 7/15/18 7:51 pm
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Its well beyond moral failure |
UncleJD |
She enabled mentally deranged, perverted, and probable child molesters to basically enslave and torture a child. I don't see it any differently than selling a child into slavery. Moral failure is the least of her problems. I'd fear the judgement of God on the surrogate couple. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3145 7/15/18 11:09 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
As soon as the husband (and presumably, his wife) began to even remotely consider a baby as no different than a package to be delivered by the UPS, their conscience had already been seared as with a hot iron. God help us if we ever entertain such inhumane, demonic considerations in our mind!
Our pro-abortion, “throwaway baby†culture has infected the very heart and soul of so many who name the name of Christ. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12808 7/16/18 12:06 am
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Carolyn Smith |
Perhaps Ephesians 5:1-12?
1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.
2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;
4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),
10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.
12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. _________________ "More of Him...less of me."
http://twitter.com/camiracle77
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5918 7/16/18 5:57 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
I feel that is way out there - and being a surrogate for a gay couple - not sure how to reconcile that one.
How about these also - A little off topic - but related.
If a person gives up their child for adoption - due to concerns that they won't be able to take care of them properly - how would one know they aren't going to get placed in a gay couple's home? It is legal now.
A corollary - is it better to let your child be given up for adoption into a gay couple's home - or to have an abortion? _________________ Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16637 7/16/18 6:52 am
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UncleJD |
Nature Boy Florida wrote: |
If a person gives up their child for adoption - due to concerns that they won't be able to take care of them properly - how would one know they aren't going to get placed in a gay couple's home? It is legal now.
A corollary - is it better to let your child be given up for adoption into a gay couple's home - or to have an abortion? |
A. That wouldn't be knowingly or purposefully done by the birth parents so hard to say anything about that one.
B. Since murder is worse, then I guess the first option is "better", but assuming its a Christian couple then their obligation would be to keep the baby rather than either of these options.
What makes the OP so bad is that this is a supposed Christian couple doing this. They have no excuse. Its awful when the world does this, but they are lost and they do lost stuff, but the Church is without excuse. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3145 7/16/18 8:06 am
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Travis Johnson |
LUKE 17:1-3
1 One day Jesus said to his disciples, “There will always be temptations to sin, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting! 2 It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a millstone hung around your neck than to cause one of these little ones to fall into sin. 3 So watch yourselves!
A mature believer willingly placing a child in an environment where godlessness is celebrated and the child is virtually guaranteed to embrace and celebrate an anti-god posture is deeply troubling.
Failure to bring pastoral instruction and church discipline is a guarantee to repeat and multiply unbiblical mindsets in the church as it is affirmed and celebrated by inaction. Additionally, Jesus clearly states that this type of spiritual abuse against a child is ill bring about some of the most grave consequences on a person causing harm to the child. |
Acts-dicted Posts: 7862 7/16/18 8:38 am
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UncleJD |
Wish there was something like excommunication in the protestant church. "Church discipline" means very little in today's church when people will just go down the street, offer their tithes, and be accepted with wide open arms. But I digress. The pastor should absolutely condemn this from the pulpit in no uncertain terms and spell out God's view on such sin to the remaining flock. To do less would be destructive to the body since they will likely hear the other side of the story from the "hurt" family.
Last edited by UncleJD on 7/16/18 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3145 7/16/18 8:53 am
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Finally.....some very good arguments.... |
caseyleejones |
very good points... |
Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11796 7/16/18 11:15 am
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UncleJD are you serious? |
COGLayman |
UncleJD said: "She enabled mentally deranged, perverted, and probable child molesters to basically enslave and torture a child. I don't see it any differently than selling a child into slavery".
Let me get this right. You are saying if someone is gay they are mentally deranged, perverted and probably a child molester?
I have known many gay people and I don't think this is the case. Do you really think most gay people are child molesters? I can't believe you would say that. |
Friendly Face Posts: 256 7/17/18 9:09 pm
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Re: UncleJD are you serious? |
John Jett |
COGLayman wrote: | UncleJD said: "She enabled mentally deranged, perverted, and probable child molesters to basically enslave and torture a child. I don't see it any differently than selling a child into slavery".
Let me get this right. You are saying if someone is gay they are mentally deranged, perverted and probably a child molester?
I have known many gay people and I don't think this is the case. Do you really think most gay people are child molesters? I can't believe you would say that. |
You didn't know that homosexuality was a catagorized mental illness until the 1970s? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4955 7/18/18 8:01 am
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Re: UncleJD are you serious? |
UncleJD |
COGLayman wrote: | UncleJD said: "She enabled mentally deranged, perverted, and probable child molesters to basically enslave and torture a child. I don't see it any differently than selling a child into slavery".
Let me get this right. You are saying if someone is gay they are mentally deranged, perverted and probably a child molester?
I have known many gay people and I don't think this is the case. Do you really think most gay people are child molesters? I can't believe you would say that. |
I'm not sure what you don't believe. That its a serious problem and sin? That it's a gross perversion on God's natural creation? That they teach their perversions and sin to whomever they can? That homosexuality largely stems from perversions, and/or abuse forced on children in the first place? Sure there are various levels of the perversion and maybe (just maybe), not 100% of them would molest a child, though that is a serious gamble to make with a child's life don't you think?. After all, most homosexuals have been molested themselves at a young age. So yes, I am very serious. I'm all for them being free to perform their perversions on one another (from a legal, not moral, standpoint), I don't hate them for being homosexuals, but when it comes to children, that is a big red line for me. I take it from your post that you believe homosexuals have normal and healthy sexual appetites and what they do is not perverted? I can't believe you would say that. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3145 7/18/18 8:16 am
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I don't believe |
COGLayman |
that 100% of gay men or lesbian women are child molesters. I don't believe 50% or even 10% are. Where do you get your statistics? I don't believe that gay people who want to adopt want to enslave and torture children. Your claims are just outrageous. Do you actually even know a gay person?
Just because a small number of any group of people does something wrong it does not mean the whole group is guilty. Far more kids are hurt by things that happen in traditional family homes that in gay homes. I certainly want to protect our children. Does that mean we should stop all adoptions?
Do you know anything about the foster care system? Do you know why most of those half a million children are in it? Do you know about the issues the older kids are dealing with? I applaud anyone who is willing to adopt some of these children that have so many issues. And, no I don't want to put any child in a home where they would be abused, enslaved, and tortured. Do you know the process one must go through before being able to adopt? I do. |
Friendly Face Posts: 256 7/18/18 5:24 pm
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Re: I don't believe |
Cojak |
COGLayman wrote: | that 100% of gay men or lesbian women are child molesters. I don't believe 50% or even 10% are. Where do you get your statistics? I don't believe that gay people who want to adopt want to enslave and torture children. Your claims are just outrageous. Do you actually even know a gay person?
Just because a small number of any group of people does something wrong it does not mean the whole group is guilty. Far more kids are hurt by things that happen in traditional family homes that in gay homes. I certainly want to protect our children. Does that mean we should stop all adoptions?
Do you know anything about the foster care system? Do you know why most of those half a million children are in it? Do you know about the issues the older kids are dealing with? I applaud anyone who is willing to adopt some of these children that have so many issues. And, no I don't want to put any child in a home where they would be abused, enslaved, and tortured. Do you know the process one must go through before being able to adopt? I do. |
I definitely do not agree or like the OP idea of 'assisting a gay couple'. However I must agree with COGlayman on the percentages. I have known 5 gay men (not in the Biblical sense now!) and everyone of them are up right citizens, but in my opinion they are WRONG & in sin. one man is close kin to me and I'd trust him morally with my life.
This is a terrible situation. And in reality no Christian woman should agree with this.
The subject is touchy BUT should be addressed by the Church in Love. Love your Enemies! The Lord asked a HARD thing! _________________ Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24282 7/18/18 11:26 pm
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Re: I don't believe |
UncleJD |
COGLayman wrote: | that 100% of gay men or lesbian women are child molesters. I don't believe 50% or even 10% are. Where do you get your statistics? I don't believe that gay people who want to adopt want to enslave and torture children. Your claims are just outrageous. Do you actually even know a gay person?
Just because a small number of any group of people does something wrong it does not mean the whole group is guilty. Far more kids are hurt by things that happen in traditional family homes that in gay homes. I certainly want to protect our children. Does that mean we should stop all adoptions?
Do you know anything about the foster care system? Do you know why most of those half a million children are in it? Do you know about the issues the older kids are dealing with? I applaud anyone who is willing to adopt some of these children that have so many issues. And, no I don't want to put any child in a home where they would be abused, enslaved, and tortured. Do you know the process one must go through before being able to adopt? I do. |
Is this CNN? Must be. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3145 7/19/18 9:12 am
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Re: Surrogacy to unsaved/gay parents.....what does the church say? |
Link |
caseyleejones wrote: | We had a situation a few years ago where a woman in our church chose to be a surrogate for other women. However, one specific time she became one for a gay couple. When the leadership found out, they discussed the concern with the family and reasoned that this was more or less a moral failure and requested she step down from all church positions.
The husbands argument is that this is no different than a UPS man delivering a package to the door of a sinner. To me that is a weak argument...but then again...I have to digress because I don't know.
I really do not call it a moral failure. However, there is a part of me that sees it as wrong. Then again, does the Word address such issues or something parallel to it.
Back then, nobody here could really give me a substantive biblical answer. Years later, I still don't know.
Can you address this scripturally? I cannot... |
I know a verse for this:
I Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
Let's say a woman has another man's baby that isn't her husbands', for the purpose of selling the baby or just giving the baby up for adoption, she is wilfully having a baby she most likely won't provide for. She's probably not planning on nursing that baby, taking care of him or her, providing food, clothing, etc. This is all very intentional and deliberate. The same is true of sperm donors who choose to have babies with women who are not their wives.
And 'love thy neighbor' should certainly apply to our own children. If you love your own child, why would you want him or her to be raised by a couple who live a sexually immoral lifestyle?
In the Old Testament, bastards were not allowed into the assembly. Why would anyone who claims to be a Christian intentionally have a baby outside of the bounds of marriage? _________________ Link |
Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 7/20/18 9:51 pm
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Baby outside of marraige |
COGLayman |
Link - So you are against adopting a child? A child that didn't come from within that marriage? |
Friendly Face Posts: 256 7/21/18 5:16 pm
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Re: Its well beyond moral failure |
buttrfli24 |
UncleJD wrote: | She enabled mentally deranged, perverted, and probable child molesters to basically enslave and torture a child. I don't see it any differently than selling a child into slavery. Moral failure is the least of her problems. I'd fear the judgement of God on the surrogate couple. |
I don't have anything to add to the conversation about whether or not this surrogacy is appropriate... but I must say this post right here shocked me. I am at a loss. Where is the love and compassion for a lost person in this? I don't see how we will ever win anyone with so much hatred. _________________ If at first you don't succeed... please don't try skydiving. |
Friendly Face Posts: 401 7/25/18 8:22 am
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Re: Surrogacy to unsaved/gay parents.....what does the church say? |
Patrick Harris |
Link wrote: | caseyleejones wrote: | We had a situation a few years ago where a woman in our church chose to be a surrogate for other women. However, one specific time she became one for a gay couple. When the leadership found out, they discussed the concern with the family and reasoned that this was more or less a moral failure and requested she step down from all church positions.
The husbands argument is that this is no different than a UPS man delivering a package to the door of a sinner. To me that is a weak argument...but then again...I have to digress because I don't know.
I really do not call it a moral failure. However, there is a part of me that sees it as wrong. Then again, does the Word address such issues or something parallel to it.
Back then, nobody here could really give me a substantive biblical answer. Years later, I still don't know.
Can you address this scripturally? I cannot... |
I know a verse for this:
I Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
Let's say a woman has another man's baby that isn't her husbands', for the purpose of selling the baby or just giving the baby up for adoption, she is wilfully having a baby she most likely won't provide for. She's probably not planning on nursing that baby, taking care of him or her, providing food, clothing, etc. This is all very intentional and deliberate. The same is true of sperm donors who choose to have babies with women who are not their wives.
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Certainly feel sorry for any infertile couples that would follow your advice. Many couples are left with no choice but to either remain childless or try various infertility solutions, like a sperm donor.
As for adoption, that's not always an option for these couples either.
Plus you are seriously using scripture out of any context to support your narrow view. |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1323 7/25/18 9:02 am
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Re: Its well beyond moral failure |
UncleJD |
buttrfli24 wrote: | UncleJD wrote: | She enabled mentally deranged, perverted, and probable child molesters to basically enslave and torture a child. I don't see it any differently than selling a child into slavery. Moral failure is the least of her problems. I'd fear the judgement of God on the surrogate couple. |
I don't have anything to add to the conversation about whether or not this surrogacy is appropriate... but I must say this post right here shocked me. I am at a loss. Where is the love and compassion for a lost person in this? I don't see how we will ever win anyone with so much hatred. |
Oh, you didn't read the part about this being believers doing this. The love and compassion is for the child who is being given to wolves. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3145 7/25/18 9:54 am
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