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Dave Dorsey

Generally speaking, do you consider non-Trinitarians outside the faith?

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **4/4/18 10:47 am**

I say "generally speaking" because I'm sure most all of us would acknowledge that in any group there will be some who genuinely come to saving faith in Christ, and we all have all probably personally known non-Trinitarians that evidence the fruit of saving faith. Our buddy Resident Skeptic would be an example.

But with that said, denial of the Trinity has historically been considered an error so severe that it puts adherents outside the Christian faith, and virtually all of its significant manifestations (Sabellianism, Arianism, partialism, tritheism, etc.) have been specifically condemned as heresies.

What's your view?

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/4/18 11:01 am**

In my view, having had fairly extensive personal experience with Oneness folks, I consider them certainly confused theologically. However, I am unaware of any place in the New Testament where affirmation of the doctrine of the trinity is stated as a condition of salvation, notwithstanding later creedal statements, correct as they may be.

I do find that the trinitarian view is the only coherent way to synthesize the scriptural data concerning God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I will also say that trinitarians often misunderstand and misrepresent Oneness Pentecostalism, and, in my view, unfairly condemn it as a nonChristian cult.

Nature Boy Florida

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16646 **4/4/18 11:50 am**

QW is right.

Oneness folks believe in Jesus.

What else is a requirement in your Bible?
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Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1865 **4/4/18 1:05 pm**

I believe people there are people saved in the UPC but in spite of the UPC doctrine. I certainly believe Oneness doctrine to be erroneous, but a cursory reading of the NT shows there were many Christians who believed all kinds of wacky stuff. Even some of the Corinthians didn't believe in the resurrection from the dead.

UncleJD

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3147 **4/4/18 1:11 pm**

Outside of orthodoxy, but not outside of the faith. I think that begins when doctrines start taking anything away from Christ Himself (i.e. Mormonism, JW)

Dave Dorsey

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **4/4/18 1:18 pm**

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/4/18 1:45 pm**

Dave Dorsey

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **4/4/18 2:04 pm**

Cojak

Cojak · Last edited by Cojak on 4/4/18 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

Aaron Scott

The Doctrine of the Trinity is the weakest doctrine of the church

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 **4/4/18 2:38 pm**

The doctrine of the trinity may be absolutely correct...but it is not without LEGITIMATE debate on the matter.

Over and over, in the scripture, Jesus uses the term "MY God." Yes, you can argue that that was Him speaking in His humanity, but He also said these things AFTER the resurrection--in fact, on the Isle of Patmos!

It's not that the trinity is not true. It's that the church INSISTS on it, despite it being so weak. I realize that the church is trying to avoid the errors that would arise if we do not endorse the deity of Christ, but when a doctrine is as weak as the trinity, you cannot fairly demand submission to that doctrine.

Yes, we KNOW that Jesus is God (John 1:1). What we DO NOT know is precisely how the Son and Father "fit" together. But that did not stop us insisting on this doctrine, and calling those who saw it another was as heretics.

If I recall my Church of God history, R.G. Spurling thought that the Council of Nicea was a departure from what God wanted for the church; namely: that the church deal with these things in love instead of by fiat.

NO ONE--and I mean NO ONE--can prove the Trinitarian doctrine without overlooking or explaining away a number of scriptures. And that is why it MUST NOT be used to decide the question of whether one is "in" the faith.

We have bomb-proof doctrine when it comes to claiming there is one God, that Jesus is the Son of God, that Jesus died for the sins of the world, rose again, and is coming again. These things are WITHOUT QUESTION among those who examine doctrine. The trinity is an add-on--probably out of fear (and I'm talking about the wider Church)--since to NOT hold to this doctrine exclusively is to risk being called heretical. It's the Emperor's New Clothes...and the church is OK with that.

caseyleejones

Re: The Doctrine of the Trinity is the weakest doctrine of the church

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11798 **4/4/18 2:42 pm**

[quote="Aaron Scott"]The doctrine of the trinity may be absolutely correct...but it is not without LEGITIMATE debate on the matter.

No, tithing is.

THE LOVE OF GOD

THE LOVE OF GOD · Friendly Face Posts: 387 **4/4/18 3:14 pm**

I believe they are saved as much as we are BUT I don't think most of them think the Trinitarians will make it to Heaven. They don't believe you are saved until you have repented, baptized in Jesus Name and receive the Holy Ghost. I don't know what they think you receive when you repent but they keep close numbers on the ones who receive the Holy Ghost. I have a lot of people who are Oneness and they are good people who really love the Lord but they are so indoctrinated with their belief. I don't know how Jesus can be His own Father and who was reigning in Heaven while Jesus was here on earth for 33 1/2 yrs? When we are together, we don't discuss doctrine.

Quiet Wyatt

Quiet Wyatt · [Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **4/4/18 3:45 pm**

Oneness folks refer to the Father, Son and Spirit as three manifestations of the one true God. Their biggest disagreement is over the trinitarian concept of God in three persons. In any case, how they explain a lot of it is by referring to these as three (simultaneous) manifestations of God, not three persons. (The simultaneity of the three manifestations is how their view differs from classical Sabellianism, by the way).

The ones Iâ€™ve known wouldnâ€™t say Jesus was his own father, or anything quite like that. They would instead say that Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead in bodily manifestation, while the Father is the manifestation of the Godhead in Heaven, and the Spirit is yet another manifestation of the Godhead.

roughridercog

Re: The Doctrine of the Trinity is the weakest doctrine of the church

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **4/4/18 4:46 pm**

[quote="caseyleejones"]

Aaron Scott

QW...yep

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6042 **4/5/18 8:51 am**

Old Time Country Preacher

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **4/5/18 11:08 am**

Orthodox soteriology presents the biblical view that salvation is by faith alone, faith in the blood of Christ to forgive sin(s). Many within the UPC teach/believe that salvation is not complete until one receives the baptism in the HS and speaks in tongues. Does toying with biblical soteriology cause one to be outside the faith?

Link

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **4/6/18 1:10 am**

revuriah

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3682 **4/6/18 11:23 am**

My wife, who is absolutely a Trinitarian, teaches at a Christian school that is run by Oneness Pentecostals, UPC. They are sweet people. They love Jesus. The biggest issue with them isnâ€™t the theological differences, itâ€™s their hard â€œclotheslineâ€ dress beliefs, at least on a practical level.

Most of the teachers are Trinitarian, as well. Baptist, COG, and even a Catholic.

I think on a basic level, evidenced in the way they pray, they get tripped up in semantics. They teach the Oneness thing, but they pray to the Father, by the power of the Spirit, in the name of Jesus. They still differentiate the Godhead.

They occasionally let the students know, my teen daughters included, that we are in error (especially in bible class). When challenged by my 16-year old (respectfully), who referred to her â€œordained minister Dadâ€ as a Trinitarian, she was told I was in rebellion.

Oh well.
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roughridercog

I remember a well known camp meeting Bible teacher...

Acts Mod Posts: 25305 **4/6/18 5:51 pm**

Who got up to speak and said, "Are there any oneness people here?"

Several people in the crowd raised their hands.

He said, "We will wait while ya'all leave."

After they left he said, "Now that the devil is gone, we can have church."

Even as a very young teen, I thought this was out of line. Especially for a teacher with the Bible committed to memory.
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Dave Dorsey

Re: I remember a well known camp meeting Bible teacher...

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 **4/6/18 6:14 pm**