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doyle

GOG: Will your state be the first to have a woman Overseer?

Acts-celerate Owner Posts: 6957 **6/18/16 10:08 pm**

Personally, I have no problem with women being in the ministry. I have a lot of respect for women preachers. My Grandmother Daughtery, was already preaching when Grandpa got saved and started out in ministry at age 57. He had been Sunday School Superintendent until then.

Ten years later when he died at 67, Grandpa was serving as a state overseer. He would tell you that he thought Grandma was a better preacher then he was. A few years after Grandpa's death, when she was 70 years old, Grandma went alone to Casper, Wyoming to pastor a church that was so small no man would take it. She stayed there four years, built the church up in attendance so men wanted to pastor there, and then she retired.

Casper, Wyoming ain't the end of the world but you can see it from there.
So once again, I have much respect for women preachers. I think if they do the work, they should be allowed to enjoy moving up in position.

However, it seems the Bible is not supportive of how I feel about women being in ministerial authority. So, when asked about women preachers, I try to be truthful. As far as I'm concerned, with so many headed for Hell, it should be "All hands on deck!" Let's get everybody who will serve, up and going as soon as possible.

If somebody is drowing and someone throws them a lifeline, unless they are really stupid, the drowing person won't ask, "Was that a woman who threw that? If so, no way. I'm waiting on a man to rescue me."

Preaching is one thing. Being in ministerial authority, is another, We can twist and pull and try to make Scripture mold into our desire for women to be able to be fully Ordained, but listen, stop insulting us. Ordaining women can be passed at our Assembly, but not because Scripture is supportive of it. So, the COG stands at an interesting crossroads. Will it conform to Scripture or to what is now considered to be politically correct?

Since there does not seem to be much desire to conform to Scripture on this issue, and political correctness rules these days even in church, I will be surprised if the COG does not pass allowing women to be Ordained. Which of course means they can serve as state overseers ect. Which state will be the first?

Warning: Once that breach of going with what is popular in society instead of Scripture, which is almost always not popular with society, is made, it will be far easier to do the same thing next time. History seems to show that religion rolls downhill. It starts out being deeply conservative. But as men in a group become supposedly more and more "enlightened," their magnificant brilliant brightness becomes a modernistic glare that causes people to divert their eyes off what Scripture actually says.

Sadly, the more liberalized they become from Scripture, the slower they grow which means God must raise up some other Bible-believing group to bless. Those who actually believe the Bible, use it as their guide for decision-making. Beginning the in late 1800's, our church, the COG, was the alternative to those who had become "enlightened" until now as moving away from Scripture is becoming no big deal.

Oh, wait a minute. Isn't one of the main tenants of our COG beliefs, the statement, "The New Testament is our only rule of faith and practice? At this Assembly, that may be changed to, "Except for a few things that are popular now in society, the New Testament is our only rule of faith and practice."

Watching the COG turn down the same path that has led other denominaitons to decline and liberalism, is a sad sight to see.

Doyle
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Cojak

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 **6/18/16 10:18 pm**

I have no problem with women in leadership. I really do not have a dog in this COG fight, but I did enjoy the information in the post, especially concerning Grandmother Daughtery, I really did enjoy the read! Smile

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Eddie Robbins

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **6/19/16 7:49 am**

It's sad to even have this discussion, IMHO.

Mark Ledbetter

As long as her name isn't Jezebel!

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2109 **6/19/16 9:33 am**

And, after we have prayed and fasted and the Lord speaks to us and declares, "Separate Sister ? for the work I have called her to do," and we anoint her, lay hands on her (perhaps figuratively), and send her forth with blessings.

After all, that's the way we select overseers, isn't it?
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UncleJD

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3147 **6/19/16 9:52 am**

I hope so, that might be enough of a signal of breaking up the golf-cart-mafia that I would consider returning to the COG.

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 **6/19/16 2:16 pm**

"Preaching is one thing. Being in ministerial authority, is another, We can twist and pull and try to make Scripture mold into our desire for women to be able to be fully Ordained, but listen, stop insulting us."

Please stop insulting the God-called women who serve and have served, like your grandmother, by spouting unscriptural nonsense such as, "Preaching is one thing. Being in ministerial authority, is another." The New Testament knows no such distinction between preaching and ministerial authority as you are trying to make. Those whom God calls to preach, evangelize or pastor, He absolutely grants them the authority necessary for them to do so.

bonnie knox

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **6/19/16 5:11 pm**

It's interesting, Doyle, that you claim those who believe in ordaining women are not interested in conforming to scripture. You say those who believe in ordaining women are only trying to be politically correct. You are claiming to speak to the motivations of those who favor ordaining women, yet I suspect I would receive a strong rebuke from you if I, in the same way you have done here, carelessly pigeon-holed the motivations of those who oppose ordaining women at the highest level of credentialing.

From what I have seen, many of those speaking in favor of the ordination of women have a high view of scripture and are actually quite knowledgeable about what the scripture says. Scripture after scripture has been cited in these discussions. Just go back and take a look through the feature presentations or hot discussions. Scripture after scripture after scripture has been cited. Tom Sterbens even offered to put a couple of hundred dollars into procuring a book for ministers who were truly interested in exploring the scriptural basis for equality of women in ministry. Has all that been so much metaphorical spitting in the wind???

I have an impulse to gently and patiently review all the scripture used in the discussion yet again, but another impulse is to recognize the futility of that and just bang my head against the desk instead.
I have an impulse to patiently explain yet again how those arguing for the ordination of women aren't just trying to bend to the politically correct culture, but another impulse is just to answer the post with a facepalm graphic.

philunderwood

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3954 **6/19/16 9:53 pm**

philunderwood

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3954 **6/19/16 9:58 pm**

The Challenge

Cite a New Testament text according to which men are given unilateral authority over women or are permitted to act as their leaders.

The Facts

Once the fall shattered the God-given oneness between man and woman, they both faced a dysfunctional relationship. The woman was warned that, because of the disruption of the fall, the husband would rule over her (Gen. 3:16). Oneness would turn into abuse. But no mandate was ever given to the man to claim this rulership over the woman.

There is no allowance made in the New Testament or license given for any one believer to wield authority over another adult believer. The pledge exacted from brides in an older wedding ceremony, "Wilt thou obey him...?" had no biblical warrant.

There is no text in Scripture that enjoins wives to obey their husbands. The call is for mutual subjection (Eph. 5:21). Both wives and husbands must relate to each other "in the same way" as slaves submit to their masters (1 Peter 2:18; 3:1, 7 NIV) in order to follow in the steps of Christ, their supreme example (2:21).

The New Testament singularly cites the case of Sarah who obeyed her husband Abraham (1 Peter 3:6). Sarah's case was cited in full knowledge of the fact that Abraham pointedly obeyed his wife just as often as she obeyed him, once even under God's specific command (Gen. 16:2, 6; 21:11-12).

Christians are solemnly forbidden by their Lord to establish among themselves structures of authority similar to the hierarchical systems that prevail in secular society. Those who aspire to attain such positions of leadership must, instead, become servants and slaves of those over whom they wish to wield authority (Matt. 20:25-2 Cool

.

Leadership is always defined in the New Testament as shared leadership. In church life, leadership is a team function entrusted to a plurality of persons such as elders. These act as servants who have recourse to the exercise of authority only exceptionally when required to do so because of disciplinary or crisis situations and then, only corporately.

In marriage, husbands and wives are bonded in a relationship of non-hierarchical complementarity within which each partner brings to the union his or her leadership gifts in a structure of shared leadership. (For resolving biblically situations of decisional impasses, see Bilezikian, Beyond Sex Roles, pp. 212-214).
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philunderwood

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3954 **6/19/16 9:59 pm**

The Challenge

Cite a biblical text that exclusively disqualifies women from exercising church leadership ministries.

The Facts

The one passage that is ultimately adduced to claim that the New Testament prohibits women to teach or to have authority over men is found in 1 Timothy 2:11-15. However, the same section of Scriptures imposes similarly restrictive leadership and ministry prohibitions on men. According to it, a man's family status provides the indispensable credential for his ability to lead the church (3:4-5, 12). The only men who may aspire to positions of church leadership, which include the ministries of teaching and managing the affairs of the church, must be married ("husbands of one wife"), and have children who are submissive and respectful, and who are believers (Titus 1:6). According to this text, ability to manage family provides indispensable proof of ability to manage the local church.

Such requirements disqualify from service not only women, but also all men who are single; all men married but childless; all men married but who have only one child; all men married but who have children too young to profess faith; all men married but who have one unbelieving child or children; all men married and whose children are believers but not submissive; all men married and whose children are believers and submissive but not respectful.

These exceptionally harsh and restrictive requirements are all the more amazing since the New Testament favors singleness for both men and women as preferred status to do ministry (Matt. 19:11-12, 1 Cor. 7:25-35), and since the New Testament emphatically requires the total utilization of all available spiritual gifts in the ministries of the church, regardless of marital status or gender.

Of course, the Scriptures provide an explanation for those apparent contradictions. The singularly restrictive structure of ministry prescribed in 1 Timothy and Titus was established as a remedial measure for churches that had fallen into a state of terminal crisis. Its underlying principle of restricting ministry in sick or immature churches to few leaders of proven managerial competency is relevant today to churches that find themselves in similarly extreme situations. However, the prevailing New Testament model of full participation of the total constituency in the ministries of the local church applies to healthy churches (See Bilezikian, Community 101, pp. 82-128).

It should be sternly noted that, for the sake of biblical consistency and integrity of practice, churches that insist on keeping women out of ministries of leadership on the basis of the prohibitions of 1 Timothy 2, thereby make themselves accountable to keep also men out of the very same positions on the basis of the similarly restrictive provisions stipulated in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, and listed above.
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philunderwood

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3954 **6/19/16 10:00 pm**

The Challenge

Cite a biblical text according to which the differences between manhood and womanhood warrant hierarchical relations between Christian men and women.

The Facts

The organization of the Christian community is never described as a gender-based hierarchy in the Scriptures. To the contrary, it is the doctrine of the community of oneness that sets the norm (Matt. 19:4-6; John 17:11, 20-23; Acts 4:32; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 12:12-14; Eph. 4:4-6; etc.).

The practical implementation of this oneness is summarized in Galatians 3:28: racial distinctions (Jew/Greek), class distinctions (slave/free), and the gender distinction (male/female) are declared to have become irrelevant to the functioning of Christian communities. The compelling mandate for this radical restructuring of community is given as: "for you are all one in Christ."

Proponents of female subordination often insist that this oneness, which transcends race, class and gender differences, is limited to the inclusion of new believers in the community through justification and baptism (Gal. 3:24-27, 28; 1 Cor. 12:13). However, Scripture prohibits limiting the principle of non-discrimination taught throughout the New Testament merely to entrance of converts into the community.

The New Testament emphatically declares that the same oneness, which transcends differences of race, class and gender as a condition for entering the church, is also the driving force that energizes the constituency of the local church into the performance of its ministries. This oneness pertains to the functional life of the body (Rom. 12:4-5). The same oneness sustains the corporate use of all the spiritual gifts invested in it by the Spirit for the performance of the ministries of the local body (1 Cor. 12:11-12; Eph. 4:4-8, 11).

Oneness is always defined in the New Testament as the basis for participation of all in the ministries of the local church. Oneness and ministry are inseparably linked in the biblical text. Therefore, the declaration according to which there is no male or female because we are all one in Christ is a ringing mandate for all to participate in church ministry functions without raising the gender difference as grounds for discrimination.

The Scripture absolutely forbids racial, class and gender discrimination by reason of the oneness of the church as a body. This oneness is consistently defined in the New Testament as full participation of the total constituency in the ministries of the church. This and other teachings of Scripture rule out gender-based hierarchy as a structure for biblical oneness.
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Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1865 **6/19/16 10:06 pm**

I have a very high view of women (one gave birth to me Laughing

). For me the issue isn't about having a title like "bishop". I think it's silly we have female pastors but don't afford them the same classification as men. My problem is that I don't see any scripture that supports female pastors of any sort. I'm sure that offends some because mom or grandma was a pastor but it's the truth.

I'll make a comment that isn't biblical at all but I believe is relevant to the discussion. Some of the mainline denominations who have been strong in ordaining female pastors (Methodists, Presbyterians, etc) are now the very ones ordaining homosexual clergy and officiating their marriages. Some may see no correlation and it's ok for you to disagree with me.

I don't see it as a cultural argument. In Paul's letters to Timothy regarding qualifications for bishops (pastors/overseers) he does not appeal to culture. He appeals to Creation. Men are supposed to lead their homes (as Christ leads/loves the church ). Does God have one order for the home and another for the Church?

Old Time Country Preacher

Re: GOG: Will your state be the first to have a woman Overseer?

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **6/19/16 10:21 pm**

Doyle, you asked if GOG will be the first state to have a woman overseer.

IIRC, it will not be GOG, but rather MAGOG that has the first woman overseer.

diakoneo

Re: GOG: Will your state be the first to have a woman Overseer?

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3382 **6/20/16 7:18 am**

bonnie knox

bonnie knox · [Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **6/20/16 11:07 am**

bonnie knox

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **6/20/16 11:23 am**

bonnie knox

bonnie knox · [Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **6/20/16 11:31 am**

Phil, thanks for posting.

I do hope people will please read all three of Phil's posts. You may not interpret the scripture in the same way that he does, but you cannot deny that his viewpoint is based on scripture. MORE IMPORTANTLY, and this is where so many people seem to get off track, Phil's argument is not based on one or two proof texts but is based on what scripture says as a whole. I am sick and tired of people taking one or two proof texts and using them as clubs, when it is obvious the way they are using them contradicts scripture as a whole.

bonnie knox

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **6/21/16 11:35 am**

Phil has issued 3 challenges:

Carolyn Smith

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5923 **6/21/16 10:19 pm**

I was really disappointed to read this post.

Doesn't the NT say that in Christ there is no male or female?

Sad

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Old Time Country Preacher

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **6/21/16 11:12 pm**

GOG or MAGOG.

It's pronounced "Maw-GOG," as in the female descriptive for a grandmother or mother.