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UncleJD |
| He was good at dodging things |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
6/6/16 8:34 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | As Eddie has stated, it is purely hypothetical - since we don't know about his last moments.
But - shouldn't we all consider the final results of his/our life?
Can't we do some introspection at the death of a famous person, and ask, what will my last moments be like? and after that, the judgment.
Or is Muhammad just as clear a path to heaven as Jesus?
For crying out loud, Billy Graham was posting what a great guy Ali was.
Is that what gets you into heaven? Pounding another guys face in, posting about civil rights, pointing out you don't have no quarrel with the Viet Cong...is that what gets you in?
Or should all Muslims continue on the path they are on - and see Ali in heaven? Is that the message Christian ministers should proclaim to all Muslims? |
He was a phenomenal boxer, truly the greatest, and quite the showman in his day. Tragic how he ended up.
Muslims (and Buddhists and whatever other religion one may be) who don't repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ are lost. Not sure why this is such a difficult call. Matt. 7:1 has got to be one of the most misinterpreted and misapplied verses in all the Bible. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
6/6/16 8:55 am
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| my thoughts |
wayne |
I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree with the verses posted but to assume that they are in hell is simply not our call. God is so merciful that I believe he reaches for His children all the way up to their last breath.
I agree not believing in Christ is a one way ticket to hell but what if somewhere along the line he was taught about Christ. His family members continued to pray for him and as he was laying there he accepted Christ. I used to say the same things but then I had not 1 but 2 heart attacks and vividly remember the conversation I was having with God as the ER folks were trying to keep me alive.....this changed my thought on this subject.
thank you for this discussion. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
6/6/16 9:49 am
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| Re: my thoughts |
Nature Boy Florida |
| wayne wrote: | I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree with the verses posted but to assume that they are in hell is simply not our call. God is so merciful that I believe he reaches for His children all the way up to their last breath.
I agree not believing in Christ is a one way ticket to hell but what if somewhere along the line he was taught about Christ. His family members continued to pray for him and as he was laying there he accepted Christ. I used to say the same things but then I had not 1 but 2 heart attacks and vividly remember the conversation I was having with God as the ER folks were trying to keep me alive.....this changed my thought on this subject.
thank you for this discussion. |
Wayne,
Your points are valid about laying there on the table between life and death - so it could have happened - no doubt. And maybe that is how it is for everyone - we don't know.
But Ali's family said they were chanting the Muslim prayer for the last hour - so none of them were calling on Jesus - as he had taught them not to do.
Just a sobering reminder that asking Jesus to be the way is important - it shouldn't be glossed over by Christian leaders/ministers.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
6/6/16 9:54 am
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| Re: my thoughts |
Quiet Wyatt |
| wayne wrote: | I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree with the verses posted but to assume that they are in hell is simply not our call. God is so merciful that I believe he reaches for His children all the way up to their last breath.
I agree not believing in Christ is a one way ticket to hell but what if somewhere along the line he was taught about Christ. His family members continued to pray for him and as he was laying there he accepted Christ. I used to say the same things but then I had not 1 but 2 heart attacks and vividly remember the conversation I was having with God as the ER folks were trying to keep me alive.....this changed my thought on this subject.
thank you for this discussion. |
I would be interested to hear how your conversation with God changed your view on the subject. Thanks! |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
6/6/16 10:14 am
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Eddie Robbins |
| Quote: | | Not sure why this is such a difficult call. |
It's not our call. That belongs to the Father and Him alone. He did not die and appoint any of us to do His job. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
6/6/16 10:22 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Quote: | | Not sure why this is such a difficult call. |
It's not our call. That belongs to the Father and Him alone. He did not die and appoint any of us to do His job. |
I believe you are conflating God's final judgement with the discernment and knowledge we are in fact supposed to have as biblically informed Christians. No one is claiming that we can take God's place as final judge. Good grief who believes that? The same Jesus who said "Judge not lest ye be judged..." also said in the very same chapter, "By their fruit you shall know them," and warned us to look out for false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing. How judgmental it is, to say someone is a false prophet leadng people astray. That same Jesus said that no one comes to the Father but by Him, that those who believe not the Son have not eternal life, but the wrath of God abides on them, that He is the door of the sheep, and anyone who tries to get in some other way is a thief and a robber. The same Jesus said that if any man would follow Him and be his disciple, he must take up his cross daily, and follow Him. All of these statements by the Lord Jesus are judgmental by today's standards. Surely Jesus would never say something so judgmental as the above statements. Just be nice to everybody and don't worry be happy. That's what Jesus taught, to hear some tell it. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
6/6/16 10:47 am
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| Brother Quiet |
wayne |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | wayne wrote: | I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree with the verses posted but to assume that they are in hell is simply not our call. God is so merciful that I believe he reaches for His children all the way up to their last breath.
I agree not believing in Christ is a one way ticket to hell but what if somewhere along the line he was taught about Christ. His family members continued to pray for him and as he was laying there he accepted Christ. I used to say the same things but then I had not 1 but 2 heart attacks and vividly remember the conversation I was having with God as the ER folks were trying to keep me alive.....this changed my thought on this subject.
thank you for this discussion. |
I would be interested to hear how your conversation with God changed your view on the subject. Thanks! |
****I am being very transparent here****
At the time of my 1st heart attack, I was planting a church and the stress level was getting to a boiling point(finding a building, dealing with county, betrayal by friends, etc). I was still working a full-time job and at that time I was carrying grudges against my father-in-law, brother-in-law and some other folks because of the way they treated me when we announced that we were leaving my role as a successful youth pastor and our home church to plant a church. Many false rumors flying around about why we left, someone said my wife and I were getting divorced, etc. So, at the point of the heart attack, I was in a pretty bad spot as a Christians in terms of my relationship with God. I know I was pastoring and trying to lead others in their relationship with God but I was struggling badly.
If at this time, I would have held myself to the same standards I was holding others - Oh man!!! I was a church planter/pastor/Bishop headed for hell.
I remember being put in the ambulance by 2 EMTs who you could tell did not believe a 37 year old was having a heart attack. The EMT who stayed in the back ran an EKG on me and I guess that changed his mind because he started beating on the glass telling the driver to get us to the hospital asap. My mind started racing at that moment - this was real. When I arrived at the hospital there was a team waiting on me. They immediately started cutting my shirt off, giving me oral nitroglycerin and who knows what else. I started to cry because I thought I was leaving my wife, my children and I thought wow am I ready. I couldn't speak but in my mind I started talking to God, confessing my sins and telling Him that I trust Him and that I know He will take care of my wife and my babies and at that point, I felt a calm and the last words I heard from the people working on me was, "get the paddles ready."
Next thing I knew I was waking up in the Cardiac Cath lab and my wife had not reached the hospital yet but I was till alive. They later told me that this was the heart attack that most people don't survive(the widowmaker). I am sure everybody would have thought this preacher/pastor was going to heaven but this preacher/pastor was not sure.
After overcoming about 2 months of a very cloudy brain, my opinion on many things had changed and one of them was the way I judged people. At that point I knew from my own personal experience that God allows you to know that He is there right up to the end.
At the next funeral of a "sinner", someone made mention that this person went to hell and I quickly said - we don't know that because we don't know the conversation God was having with that individual right before they left this world.
I can understand folks not wanting to believe the way I do but I know what happened to me and that is proof that we don't really know.
Thanks for letting me share this, it brought tears to my eyes about how merciful our God really is |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
6/6/16 12:17 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| That is a great testimony, Wayne. I don't think anybody would deny that God can deal with somebody like that in the throes of death. God certainly gives us ample opportunities to repent, and desires to have mercy where possible. All of that I absolutely believe because the Bible tells me so. That in no way changes the destiny of someone who rejected Jesus' love and salvation all the way up to their death. But thanks again for sharing that wonderful story of how God brought you to thorough repentance. Praise God for his patience, mercy, and grace! |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
6/6/16 12:25 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| The bottom line is, nobody on this earth knows where he is right now. It doesn't matter if family was chanting Muslim chants. What if they were chanting Christian chants, would that save him? Think for a moment. There is a man who was raised as a Christian. He "converts" to Islam and becomes the most famous Muslim in the world. He is on his death bed and before he dies, the Hily Spirit brings to his attention his childhood beliefs because it's not His will that any perish and he becomes a believer before he dies. Then, all of the folks who seem to enjoy being judge are damning his soul to hell all over social media. What if that happened? Is it possible? I don't know if it did or didn't and neither does any of you. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
6/6/16 12:41 pm
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UncleJD |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | The bottom line is, nobody on this earth knows where he is right now. It doesn't matter if family was chanting Muslim chants. What if they were chanting Christian chants, would that save him? Think for a moment. There is a man who was raised as a Christian. He "converts" to Islam and becomes the most famous Muslim in the world. He is on his death bed and before he dies, the Hily Spirit brings to his attention his childhood beliefs because it's not His will that any perish and he becomes a believer before he dies. Then, all of the folks who seem to enjoy being judge are damning his soul to hell all over social media. What if that happened? Is it possible? I don't know if it did or didn't and neither does any of you. |
I agree 100% and hope that happened, I hate to think of such an eloquent and charismatic personality like him being in hell.
We should only be discussing a hypothetical situation. IF he believed exactly what he said he did about Christ and Muhammad at the very last moment of life, then "What would be his fate?". It would be that of any other person that rejects Christ. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
6/6/16 1:04 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | The bottom line is, nobody on this earth knows where he is right now. It doesn't matter if family was chanting Muslim chants. What if they were chanting Christian chants, would that save him? Think for a moment. There is a man who was raised as a Christian. He "converts" to Islam and becomes the most famous Muslim in the world. He is on his death bed and before he dies, the Hily Spirit brings to his attention his childhood beliefs because it's not His will that any perish and he becomes a believer before he dies. Then, all of the folks who seem to enjoy being judge are damning his soul to hell all over social media. What if that happened? Is it possible? I don't know if it did or didn't and neither does any of you. |
You are speculating as much as you are criticizing others for it, Eddie. Judge not, lest ye be judged. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
6/6/16 1:08 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Quote: |
We should only be discussing a hypothetical situation. IF he believed exactly what he said he did about Christ and Muhammad at the very last moment of life, then "What would be his fate?". It would be that of any other person that rejects Christ. |
But...there is no debate here. Everybody who posts here already believes that people who are without Christ are lost. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
6/6/16 1:09 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Quote: |
We should only be discussing a hypothetical situation. IF he believed exactly what he said he did about Christ and Muhammad at the very last moment of life, then "What would be his fate?". It would be that of any other person that rejects Christ. |
But...there is no debate here. Everybody who posts here already believes that people who are without Christ are lost. |
Are you sure?
I am often surprised.
What about "Love Wins"?
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16646
6/6/16 3:16 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Who posts here that believes that everyone is going to heaven, like "Love Wins" says? Can you name one poster? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
6/6/16 3:34 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Quote: |
We should only be discussing a hypothetical situation. IF he believed exactly what he said he did about Christ and Muhammad at the very last moment of life, then "What would be his fate?". It would be that of any other person that rejects Christ. |
But...there is no debate here. Everybody who posts here already believes that people who are without Christ are lost. |
In the past, there have been several posters here who said that a person didn't have to have conscious personal knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
6/6/16 3:39 pm
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| Some thoughts... |
Aaron Scott |
OK, to be more specific, some CONTROVERSIAL thoughts....
Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto Him for righteousness. Any person with an imperfect understanding of God (such as Abram appeared to have--certainly at first), but who tries to please God...apparently DOES please God.
Yes, God at one time "winked" at that, but now commands everyone to be saved. Indeed, He does. For all we know, the faithful around the globe--Jewish or not--may have at one time had it counted unto them as righteousness.
I, personally, believe that, despite the supposed "roots" of the deity we hear of as Allah, the CONCEPT of Him is aligns fully with the concept of the Jewish God. That is, Allah is understood by Muslims to be the God of Abraham, just as Jews understand Jehovah to be the God of Abraham. They are both reaching out toward the same God. Imperfectly. Sometimes in the most twisted of manners, etc. But, for many, with a sincere heart that knows no different.
I have already made it clear here before that I believe the good people of this earth, if they die without having heard of Jesus, will be given that opportunity, their consciences excusing them. I believe that because we know that NO ONE gets to the Father except by Jesus...and since these otherwise good people did not know of Jesus, they still must come BY Him if they are to be saved. So it must take place after death. Just my personal beliefs--no doctrinal statement is meant by this.
Now, did Ali go to heaven? Well, of course, who knows? We are not his judge. He likely did many wonderful things. He likely did some not so wonderful things. Did his conscience accuse or excuse him? We are not given to know. But I do feel confident that the sincere Muslim is reaching for the SAME GOD that the Jews reach for.
However, Muslims, like Jews, are lost without Jesus. BOTH RELIGIONS are obsolete. Jesus is the highest revelation of God, and both of these religions, insomuch as Christianity is concerned, do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
I will give it to the Muslims that they do better than the Jews when it comes to Jesus (though it is not nearly enough). For at least the Muslims believe that Jesus was a great prophet. The Jews cannot even allow that, for they know that if they do, they must then be asked why they do not believe His words, why "they" (royal "they") crucified Him, etc. And that is the last thing a Jew wants to get into. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6042
6/6/16 7:05 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Quote: |
We should only be discussing a hypothetical situation. IF he believed exactly what he said he did about Christ and Muhammad at the very last moment of life, then "What would be his fate?". It would be that of any other person that rejects Christ. |
But...there is no debate here. Everybody who posts here already believes that people who are without Christ are lost. |
In the past, there have been several posters here who said that a person didn't have to have conscious personal knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. |
I've never seen that. Name them. Or, maybe they will speak up. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
6/6/16 7:16 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Eddie Robbins wrote: | | Quote: |
We should only be discussing a hypothetical situation. IF he believed exactly what he said he did about Christ and Muhammad at the very last moment of life, then "What would be his fate?". It would be that of any other person that rejects Christ. |
But...there is no debate here. Everybody who posts here already believes that people who are without Christ are lost. |
In the past, there have been several posters here who said that a person didn't have to have conscious personal knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. |
I've never seen that. Name them. Or, maybe they will speak up. |
Aaron Scott for one just did. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12817
6/6/16 7:18 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| Ali had a knowledge of Jesus and rejected Him for another religion. That is not the same as the boy who died in a third world country with no knowledge of Jesus. Apples and oranges. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
6/6/16 7:20 pm
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