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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Perhaps Manning is guilty, but what if its like the story in Rollin Stone Mag about the rape at UVA? Creative writing. |
It didn't take very long for the Rolling Stone story to fall apart. The author of the article never bothered to contact anyone to verify the story; she just went with the accuser's story. I would say there are lots of differences in how the information has come out in this case as opposed to the UVA case, but as I mentioned before this is getting tedious and I don't think there is anything at this point that will convince you that Naughright's account was accurate.
I agree that colleges and universities should not try to handle crimes in house. |
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Posts: 14803
2/17/16 8:50 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
For the record, it seems to me that there is a lot that needs to be answered for. If that doesn't occur, the absence of a defense will lend credibility to the accusations in my mind.
But anyone who believes a single person's account is accurate based on that person's account and the evidence they present, without any answer from the accused -- well, as the kids would say, I can't even. |
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Posts: 13654
2/17/16 8:55 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | court document |
* statement written by the attorneys of a litigant |
Is that not a court document? Are there not legal ramifications for falsifying info in such a statement? Are the testimonies from the people whose depositions are recorded in this statement what the people actually said or not?
Why would Mike Rolo being saying things under deposition that would strengthen Naughright's case and embarrass himself if they were not true. Couldn't lawyers be disbarred if they falsified testimonies?
Okay, sure, they were her lawyers, but I'm saying I find Naughright's story more believable given what we know about how everyone in the case acted. I could be wrong; as I said my judgment is not foolproof. On the other hand, I was born in the afternoon, but it wasn't yesterday afternoon! |
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Posts: 14803
2/17/16 8:55 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | but I'm saying I find Naughright's story more believable given what we know about how everyone in the case acted. |
Now that I think is a reasonable opinion to hold at this juncture. Not saying I agree (or don't agree) but I think it's fair for what we know now. Not "accurate", just more believable based on what we know. |
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Posts: 13654
2/17/16 8:59 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | But anyone who believes a single person's account is accurate based on that person's account and the evidence they present, without any answer from the accused -- well, as the kids would say, I can't even. |
Dave, if a child tells you he or she has been sexual assaulted, for example, sometimes you will only have to go on whether or not you find the child believable because there may not be evidence, or witnesses, and the perp will deny it.
As author Judith Herman stated, "All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing." Statistically speaking, most accusations of sexual assault are not false. Possibly this has been because the victim feels revictimized when he or she is not believed. So often the victim ends up blamed or trashed. I can think of high profile cases in which a false accusation was made such as the UVA case and the Duke Lacrosse Case, but they are exceptions to the rule. There are also cases where I just wonder what really did happen.
But think about what happened to the young women who were molested by the Romanian pastor in our own COG. It came down to deciding who was believable.
Now I could be wrong. For example, if I had been asked whether I thought Lance Armstrong had doped after he successfully sued a woman for (slander? libel? defamation? don't remember off the top of my head) for claiming that she knew he had doped, why I might have made the wrong assumption in that case. But I consider myself reasonably objective, generally speaking. |
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Posts: 14803
2/17/16 9:11 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Or did she engage in sex with any of the female basketball players, as was alleged? |
WHO alleged this? |
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Posts: 14803
2/17/16 9:21 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
You can support a victim and the claims of a victim without also assuming they are identifying the correct perpetrator.
Take everything you just said and imagine someone accuses you, wrongly. How would you want people to treat and act toward you as they worked to support the victim? That's how you should treat others who are accused.
It's a false dichotomy to say the only other choice is withholding support from someone who says they are a victim.
Last edited by Dave Dorsey on 2/17/16 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Posts: 13654
2/17/16 9:24 pm
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bonnie knox |
Are you presuming she did not make the incident a teachable moment? If so, what would a teachable moment look like in this case?
| Mat wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | If the trainer were a confident profession why did she not use the situation as a teachable moment? |
If a 20 yr old male athlete sticks his genitals on a 27 yr old female trainer's face and head, what do you consider an appropriate response? How do you propose she should have made the situation a teachable moment?
I can't believe you are actually asking that question. |
I would say you are taking as a statement of fact an account that was developed by the lawyers who were in the employ of the woman. It is in their best interest to portray the event in its most outrageous terms. Until there is a court case, before a judge, it is still "she said, he said". Perhaps Manning is guilty, but what if its like the story in Rollin Stone Mag about the rape at UVA? Creative writing.
Mat
PS One of the broader problems related to college and university crimes of all sorts is the campus police who operate separate from the real police dept. If there is a sex crime (or any crime) it should be reported to the real police. Colleges and universities police can not be trusted to investigate or enforce the law from either side of the issue, since they work for the campus. I don't understand why, if this woman was assaulted, she did not file charges and was willing to settle out of court for money. I would love to see those drunken frat boys and girls arrested and put in jail. |
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Posts: 14803
2/17/16 9:24 pm
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bonnie knox |
That's a cop out. The correct perpetrator? Really? So maybe it was the African American athlete that Naughright claims they asked her to pin the incident on. Good grief!
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | You can support a victim and the claims of a victim without also assuming they are identifying the correct perpetrator.
Take everything you just said and imagine someone accuses you, wrongly. How would you want people to treat and act toward you as they worked to support the victim? That's how you should treat others who are accused.
It's a false dichotomy to say the only other choice is withholding support from someone who says they are a victim. |
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Posts: 14803
2/17/16 9:27 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Sigh. Not even close to what I was talking about. |
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Posts: 13654
2/17/16 9:47 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Sigh. Not even close to what I was talking about. |
Ha, I'm trying to stay with the topic of the thread. |
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Posts: 14803
2/17/16 9:53 pm
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bonnie knox |
| I'm done with this thread. It has become way beyond tedious. |
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Posts: 14803
2/17/16 9:55 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
I am not a sports fan of any team, so I have no dog in this fight. I happened upon the article right after the Super Bowl & read it because it was interesting. Disgusting, but interesting and amazing.
This was not a case of "he said, she said..." This is an eyewitness account of the incident, per the article and per the witness's testimony:
"When Rollo learned of the complaint, he allegedly concocted a story that Manning actually pulled down his pants to moon another student-athlete, Malcolm Saxon, who was nearby. According to Rollo, after mooning the student, Naughright just happened to move her head right into Manning's pelvic region. Rollo acknowledged under oath that he was the first person to use the word “mooning.”
One person, though, could settle all of this: Malcolm Saxon.
And, in fact, he did settle it. In an affidavit, Saxon refuted Manning's story and made it clear that Manning never mooned him. In a letter to Manning, Saxon, who stated that he lost his eligibility as a student-athlete over it, practically begged him to come forward and tell the truth (see page 20). Here's an excerpt from the letter:
"First, I have stuck to my same story throughout this drama. I told Mike Rollo the next day and Coach Fulmer a week or two afterwards. I had nothing to hide at that point and I have nothing to hide today. I have never been on Jamie's side or on your side (contrary to what the athletic department was telling you and telling her). I stuck to the truth and I lost my eligibility for it. My redshirt request sat on Mike Rollo's desk for months as the process was going forward. I'm not angry about it anymore, just getting a little tired of it!!
"Peyton, you messed up. I still don't know why you dropped your drawers. Maybe it was a mistake, maybe not. But it was definitely inappropriate. Please take some personal responsibility here and own up to what you did. I never understood why you didn't admit to it...."
And to answer Mat's many comments about how you can be falsely accused and these kinds of situations are a perfect set up, I agree, that is true. I've been falsely accused before and it is a terrible thing. But God brought me through it and put the accusations to rest. Yes, it can happen. But since the woman in this case is the one whose stellar career was ruined at two universities by this incident, it seems she must not be the one with the power. At least not the power of Manning & his daddy had as the resident football champions.
And the real incident that preceded the one detailed in this article was redacted from the court documents provided, so I guess the true incident will never see the light of day.
Sexual harassment is not OK. Yes, it can go either way, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If you don't want to look at the facts presented in the court documents, that's fine. But just to say "You shouldn't put females in a men's locker room or vice versa or they deserve what they get" is not OK, either.
Nuff said.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5923
2/18/16 1:23 am
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Mat |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: |
Sexual harassment is not OK. Yes, it can go either way, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If you don't want to look at the facts presented in the court documents, that's fine. But just to say "You shouldn't put females in a men's locker room or vice versa or they deserve what they get" is not OK, either.
Nuff said. |
Carolyn,
No doubt you make a very cogent argument related to the information available. Perhaps, as I said, Manning did expose himself to the trainer. I don't think my argument is based on women deserving what that get if they demand to work in men's locker rooms, rather (to me) the greater concern is the changing social environment has become a "loss loss" for men. Men are compelled to accommodate women at the cost of personal privacy in situations like the Manning case, while at the same time women are more easy ascribed the "victim" status in issues related to sexuality.
As one poster reminded us, even a playground kiss is now sexual assault. Words used on the job can constitute a man being guilty of a "hostel work environment", to the point that often on the job when women are talking about certain "female" issues, the only thing a man can do is walk away less he find himself called before the Human Resource Director and out on the street without a job.
Traditional roles are changing and men must adapt and be careful. We must protect ourselves in any interaction with women, especially in the realm of sexuality.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1994
2/18/16 7:49 am
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georgiapath |
| Read the article Mat & Dave, it is very detailed and clear. Bonnie and Carolyn are also doing a good job explaining it to you. duh |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7604
2/18/16 9:55 am
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