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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Show me some real solid evidence, and maybe I'll change my tone. |
I think you have a blind spot. Several of us have posted extensively things that you seem unwilling to acknowledge. I'm praying that your spiritual eyes will be enlightened. |
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Posts: 14803
1/3/16 2:49 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Btw, just to make it a bit clearer, I don't have a problem with living in a society where men make more money and husbands and fathers control the finances. I don't see this as inherently unjust. |
Sometimes the wife is gifted with better money sense and yet the man is allowed to run the couple into the ground financially. Sheer stupidity for the church not to empower wives who are gifted with financial sense to help the family that way. |
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1/3/16 2:56 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Back when 90+% of the population were in agriculture or animal husbandry, you didn't hear a lot of complaints from the women-folk about equal rights in the work place. They were content to milk the cows, gather the eggs, clean the house, and cook the food. Standing behind the plough and shoveling ox manure probably wasn't any more appealing. |
How do you know those women "were content." Are you speaking for those women???
And I happen to know a woman who claims she PULLED the plow, not just walked behind.
My grandmother said of my grandfather, "He'd worked you like a slave. He worked like a slave, too, but he'd work you like a slave." Granny left her children unattended at the house and picked cotton alongside her husband. She would go back to the house to nurse the baby, then go back to the field.
Why you would hold up that time as some sort of ideal is beyond me. |
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Posts: 14803
1/3/16 3:12 pm
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| My advice? |
roughridercog |
Don't do it.
Now wasn't that easy?
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1/3/16 6:24 pm
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| Re: My advice? |
bonnie knox |
| roughridercog wrote: | Don't do it.
Now wasn't that easy? |
It's simple enough if he doesn't love her and doesn't really want to get married to her, but if he does, he will want to know why he shouldn't. And given that there are examples of successful marriages in which a woman keeps her maiden name, maybe the advice to not marry would not be necessary.
In other words, it's easy to give advice when it's just a hypothetical question on a forum proposed by someone who is highly suspicious of women who want equality. |
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1/3/16 7:11 pm
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Link |
| Quote: |
I think you have a blind spot. Several of us have posted extensively things that you seem unwilling to acknowledge. I'm praying that your spiritual eyes will be enlightened. |
Several? I remember you and Tom off the top of my head, and I'm not sure if Tom is completely on your side since his posts deal more with the redemption theme. If you think I have a blind spot, do you think the majority of church leaders and theologians throughout history, including early Greek-speaking ones might have had the same blind spot?
I appreciate prayer, and I'll pray for you, too. I think you may have a blind spot since you seem to have a problem with the husband being in charge in the marriage, if I understood one of your posts right.
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How do you know those women "were content." Are you speaking for those women??? |
I'm not familiar with any feminist writings from the 1800's complaining that women were not allowed to plow fields, put up fences, or shovel cow manure. But I haven't dug through historical documents looking for such complaints. I suspect they were rare or nonexistent.
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And I happen to know a woman who claims she PULLED the plow, not just walked behind. |
Btw, are you the type to admire a strong woman?
That's not the scenario I talked about. I was talking situations where the men did the plowing, shoveling manure, digging up stumps, etc.and the women shelled beans, took care of the kids, cleaned the house, gathered the eggs, etc. Women plowing fields certainly isn't the stereotypical 'woman's work' of that era.
| Quote: |
My grandmother said of my grandfather, "He'd worked you like a slave. He worked like a slave, too, but he'd work you like a slave." Granny left her children unattended at the house and picked cotton alongside her husband. She would go back to the house to nurse the baby, then go back to the field.
Why you would hold up that time as some sort of ideal is beyond me.
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I didn't say anything about your grandpa or grandma.
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It's simple enough if he doesn't love her and doesn't really want to get married to her, but if he does, he will want to know why he shouldn't. And given that there are examples of successful marriages in which a woman keeps her maiden name, maybe the advice to not marry would not be necessary. |
I'm sure you could find plenty of examples of Hindu couples who get along and stay together until they die. You could probably even find liberal pro-gay marriage atheist pro-abortion couples. But a lot of Christian men would like to have a marriage that includes that component of wives submitting to their husbands found in Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, and I Peter 3.
I know in our culture men are taught to be uncomfortable with women talking too much about marriage early on while dating. But it's wise to approach dating with a view of getting to know if the person is a potential spouse before getting so emotionally involved that it hurts either party too badly to stop dating. Men can see if women have the values they are looking for, are kind, mentally stable, submissive or willing to be in marriage, willing to have children, will be a good potential motheretc. Women can see if the men have their lives together, whether they are kind or bullies, hardworking or lazy, are willing to lead in the home, are willing to have children, would be a good father, etc.
A woman not being willing to take her husband's last name might be a signal of conflicting values. A man not being able to pass on his own family name could also be a deal-breaker for some people.
| Quote: |
In other words, it's easy to give advice when it's just a hypothetical question on a forum proposed by someone who is highly suspicious of women who want equality. |
Do you think women are equal to men? If so, then why do they have to 'want equality'? Is equality something men give to women?
'Equality' is one of those buzz words like 'freedom' that Americans like to hear, even when it makes no sense in context. In animal farm, I think it was Napolean whose commentary on his government in light of their law, all animals are equal' was 'all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.'
Americans like all people to be equal. But are children equal to parents? Maybe we could say they are equal in value. But in a 'hierarchical' sense they are not and should not be. They are to be in submission to their parents. Wives are also to be in submission/subjection to their own husbands. Peter illustrates this using the word 'obeyed.'
If you want to believe in mutual submission, I suppose you can argue that, but it's mutual submission in the context of a passage which puts specific emphasis on the fact that wives are to submit to their husbands, not mutual 'equal' submission. That view is in no way justifiable in light of Ephesians 5. Colossians 3 and I Peter 3, which tell wives to submit to their husbands don't say anything that can be interpreted as mutual submission. An egalitarian interpretation of Ephesians 5 is not feasible.
And of course the alternative interpretation is that the instructions to submit to one another means that we are all to submit to the appropriate people, and the passage lists examples, wives to husbands, children to parents (obeying them) and slaves to masters.
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1/4/16 6:02 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | But a lot of Christian men would like to have a marriage that includes that component of wives submitting to their husbands found in Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, and I Peter 3. |
See, there you go again, insinuating that people who might not disapprove of a woman keeping her maiden name in marriage must be against Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, and 1 Peter 3. Do any of these verses say a woman should not keep her maiden name?
Do you even realize what you are doing?
Would these Christian men also want a marriage that includes them being submissive to their wives found in Ephesians 5:21, Galatians 5:13, Philippians 2:3, and 1 Peter 5:5? |
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1/4/16 8:22 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | 'Equality' is one of those buzz words like 'freedom' that Americans like to hear, even when it makes no sense in context. |
You are trying to make a straw man, which is what you tried to do by saying no 19th century women were campaigning to shovel manure, therefore 19th century women didn't want equality and were content to do what you imagined they did. And yes, you were saying something about my grandmother when you presumed to speak of the contentment and job description of women in an agrarian society.
Equality doesn't mean 5 ft 100 lb. woman can shovel as much manure as a 5 ft 11" 235 lb. man can shovel. It means if you pay a man two pence to shovel out 1 8' x 10' stall, equality would demand a woman would ALSO be paid two pence to shovel out 1 8' x 10' stall. It means if a man pays property taxes and gets to vote, a woman who pays property taxes may also vote. It means a woman is not restricted from driving a car or getting a job in law enforcement merely because of her sex.
Last edited by bonnie knox on 1/4/16 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Posts: 14803
1/4/16 8:36 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Do you think women are equal to men? If so, then why do they have to 'want equality'? Is equality something men give to women? |
Equality can be withheld by those in power. Power might be held by employers, tax systems, court systems, laws, educational systems, etc. |
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Posts: 14803
1/4/16 8:40 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Btw, are you the type to admire a strong woman? |
Well, it's like I told krista when she said she thought another poster couldn't handle a "strong woman," "Honey, smell ain't everything!"
I admire strong women whether that's physical strength or not. I admire strong men. I do admire athletes, but I tend to admire more the physical strength of men doing what I call real work. I also admire strong men (as well as strong women) who can do heroic acts because of strength and courage. Typically, men are physically much stronger than women. I have to say, I've seen some physically strong men in my time, and I admire it very much when that physical strength is put to good use.
But I don't set up hierarchies based on brute strength (unless I was picking out a weightlifting team, lol). |
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1/4/16 9:03 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Several? I remember you and Tom off the top of my head, and I'm not sure if Tom is completely on your side since his posts deal more with the redemption theme. |
I'm not going to suggest there are sides with some posters on one side of the line and some posters on the other side. For example, Bro Bob and I have what could probably be described as diametrically opposed views on some of these issues, but I count Bro Bob as being "on my side."
Now, what I said is that several posters have posted things that you are unwilling to acknowledge.
Some examples might be Nick Park suggesting that Ephesians 5:21 applies to everyone or that godly, hardworking, missionally minded women he knows with scars of persecution ought to be able to obtain the highest level of credentials within the church of God. Or Quiet Wyatt suggesting that if the same cultural relevance was applied to the verses directed at wives as to the verses directed at slaves, we would be hunky dory with slavery, but that being hunky dory with slavery is just not in keeping with the law of love. (Of course, that's my paraphrase; QW didn't say hunky dory.) Tom has definitely said that the redemptive trajectory which elevates women is the very same trajectory that gives us the concept of the Trinity. Cojak is not going to go toe to toe in a debate, but he will describe the elevation of women in terms of love. His assertion was that you as a man would never know what it is like for a woman to be in an oppressive marriage. Major Trammell pointed out that you are not satisfied with examples that counter your argument.
Oh, but I'm getting tedious and boring, am I not, by saying who said what. |
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Posts: 14803
1/4/16 9:34 am
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bonnie knox |
Oh, and John Jett is always wanting to include verses 11 and 12 in a reading of 1 Corinthians chapter 11.  |
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1/4/16 9:51 am
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bonnie knox |
Oh, my, a little tedium I just can't resist.
| Major B. Trammell wrote: | Link, at this moment I am content to simply point and laugh.
I feel no need to enter a discussion by positing serious, actual thoughtful, reasoned posts that I know will simply be ignored or twisted beyond recognition by those who refuse to see it any other way than what their own misguided traditions and biases have taught them. |
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1/4/16 9:56 am
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bonnie knox |
You had to ask, didn't you? |
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1/4/16 10:22 am
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Link |
| bonnie knox wrote: | Oh, my, a little tedium I just can't resist.
| Major B. Trammell wrote: | Link, at this moment I am content to simply point and laugh.
I feel no need to enter a discussion by positing serious, actual thoughtful, reasoned posts that I know will simply be ignored or twisted beyond recognition by those who refuse to see it any other way than what their own misguided traditions and biases have taught them. |
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It doesn't matter.
Btw, I disagreed with that poster on certain topics, but I don't recall such an exchange on the topic of marriage. You brought up some people who disagreed with me on other topics. Most of us disagree with someone else on some issue or other on this board. Thinking wives don't have to submit to their husbands (saying they submit to each other equally is more or less the same thing) is a pretty big deal when it comes to marriage.
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1/4/16 3:04 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Thinking wives don't have to submit to their husbands (saying they submit to each other equally is more or less the same thing) is a pretty big deal when it comes to marriage. |
That absolutely is not the same thing!
And Link, try to follow the dialogue. I said that several of the posters had posted things you wouldn't acknowledge. The posters I listed posted things that have come up in the discussion of female subordination.
And it "doesn't matter" whether you remember the exchange with Major B. Trammell. But if you want to see it, you may go to this thread:
http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?t=71213 |
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Posts: 14803
1/4/16 3:29 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Okay, I'm done with this thread. |
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1/4/16 3:59 pm
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Link |
| bonnie knox wrote: |
See, there you go again, insinuating that people who might not disapprove of a woman keeping her maiden name in marriage must be against Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, and 1 Peter 3. Do any of these verses say a woman should not keep her maiden name?
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If you look back over what I've posted, I'm not saying the Bible teaches a woman must take her husband's last name. That practice doesn't exist in all cultures. In our culture, if a woman tells a man she will not take his last name, that could signal a belief in a feminist philosophy that might indicate she doesn't want to submit to her husband. She could suggest this, possibly, because she doesn't know of the marriage will last long and doesn't want to bother to change her name. A woman not wanting to take her husband's last name is kind of like a man asking for a prenup.
There are cases where there may be legitimate reasons for a prenup, for example, wanting to pass along an inheritance to children already born. There may also be many reasons for a woman not taking her husband's last name that aren't the ones I mentioned above. Am I saying that every woman who doesn't legally change her name at marriage is unsubmissive? No, I'm not saying that at all, and I don't think that fits my experience with other peoples overseas either. The wives among my wife's people-group don't usually legally change their names.
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1/5/16 5:34 am
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