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bonnie knox |
So would you say your sexual identity is tied up in your wife taking your last name?
In other words, you wouldn't feel "manly" to "sit on the floor of your parents' living room trying to avoid a panic attack in the face of opposition," and you wouldn't feel "manly" to take your wife's last name?
| Link wrote: | | Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Link wrote: | | If it's the guy I spoke with on a forum, I tried to talk him out of it. |
I don't want to seem too stereotypically masculine, but I have to admit that I formed additional judgments about him after reading how he sat in the floor of his parents' living room trying to avoid a panic attack in the face of opposition to his plan. |
Sounds like the kind of guy who would take his wife's last name? |
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12/28/15 10:35 am
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Dave Dorsey |
That post was something else, Bonnie.
Yes... if I was sitting on my parents' floor trying to avoid a panic attack in the face of opposition, I would not consider that a masculine display of strength, resolve, or commitment to what I believed was right.
As to the supremely weird suggestion that any of this is related to sexual identity, I will leave that for you to explore. |
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12/28/15 11:12 am
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bonnie knox |
It is not a supremely weird suggestion. It is an observation based on yours and Link's response.
You are the one who tied "stereotypical masculinity" to your judgment of the guys behaviour.
Link was the one who said, "kind of guy" in relation to his behaviour.
Now if you had simply said, "He must have really been scared," without the statement about "stereotypical masculinity" and "judgments" and "that kind of guy," why, yes, indeedy, I might have crossed the line in talking about sexual identity. But, no, I observe that some consider it lacking in masculinity for a guy take his wife's last name, or at the very least begin making questions and judgments about the masculinity of a man who does. |
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12/28/15 11:24 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| What's weird is the connection you are making between masculinity and "sexual identity". No, I do not think that guy is masculine, at all. (Neither does my wife.) What that has to do with sexual identity I do not know. |
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12/28/15 11:45 am
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bonnie knox |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | What's weird is the connection you are making between masculinity and "sexual identity". No, I do not think that guy is masculine, at all. (Neither does my wife.) What that has to do with sexual identity I do not know. |
I must be using the wrong term because I am not referring to gender identity or sexual orientation (which is how I'm being understood apparently). I'm referring to the aspect of ourselves in which we see ourselves as masculine because-- or feminine because--, in other words, the whole concept of what it means to be masculine and what it means to be feminine. (I was assuming that was what "sexual identity" meant.) So, if you see providing the last name for the couple as a masculine thing that happens, you will see a man who takes his wife's last name as not being masculine. Then the resistance to a woman retaining her maiden name or a man using his wife's last name becomes not just one of cultural tradition but one of [what is the term? I used sexual identity, but apparently that is not the right term?]. |
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12/28/15 12:57 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
No, I think the name thing is just cultural tradition, and there are some rational reasons why a wife wouldn't take her husband's name. I identified one earlier.
As for a man wanting to take his wife's name -- as a result of cultural tradition, yes, that is a very non-masculine thing to want. In a different culture it might not be so. I realize reasonable people might disagree on this point, but my opinion (and the opinion of my wife) is that in our culture that is very self-emasculating.
Now, sitting in the floor and whining, that's non-masculine in any culture. |
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12/28/15 1:26 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | but I do view that as very emasculating |
I thought so. Apparently I didn't say what I thought very well.
| bonnie knox wrote: | | and you wouldn't feel "manly" to take your wife's last name? |
Last edited by bonnie knox on 12/28/15 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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12/28/15 1:30 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | I thought so. Apparently I didn't say what I thought very well. |
You cut out quite a bit of what I said. I hope you understood my comment in its full context: in our culture, a man wanting to take his wife's name, is an example of self-emasculation.
Whether it is objectively so is another matter, and a woman not wanting to take her husband's name for whatever reason is not anything close to the same thing. |
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12/28/15 1:32 pm
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bonnie knox |
I quoted the clause you had written at the time. Apparently, you were revising while I was composing my post.
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | I thought so. Apparently I didn't say what I thought very well. |
You cut out quite a bit of what I said. I hope you understood my comment in its full context: in our culture, a man wanting to take his wife's name, is an example of self-emasculation.
Whether it is objectively so is another matter, and a woman not wanting to take her husband's name for whatever reason is not anything close to the same thing. |
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12/28/15 1:40 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| I'm sorry. I didn't realize my edit was that different, but please note that it best reflects what I intended to communicate. |
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12/28/15 1:44 pm
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Link |
| Quote: |
Yes, I saw what you did; my question was why?
Why is a woman dominating a man seen as the only alternative to a man dominating a woman? |
You are making some unjustifiable assumptions in your questions here that go beyond what I said. If a man is the leader in the relationship, has the 'power', if you want to call it that, the wife submits to him, etc. That doesn't have to mean he has to be domineering toward her.
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Given the high rate of divorce amongst women who take their husbands' last names, I think this reasoning doesn't hold water. |
There are a lot of aspects of marriage tradition that fall apart in a culture which has a high tolerance for divorce and unrealistic expectations of marriage. Women have been taking their husband's last name in certain European and American cultures for centuries. The high divorce rates are a relatively recent phenomenon.
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You objected that I suggested that some think they did their wife a favor by marrying her, but the above statement indicates that. |
Here is what I wrote,
"Honestly, I think my wife and I did each other a favor by marrying each other. We were both very appreciative, especially to the Lord for bringing us together, when we got married."
| Quote: | Insisting that she change her name might show also some problems with Biblical principles about marriage. We must claim "Biblical" for our side of the argument at all costs.
We must claim "Biblical" even if a woman who retains her maiden name is committed to the relationship.
We must claim "Biblical" about her joining his clan even if Jesus said a man would leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife.
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God also gave laws regarding Israeli land inheritance being passed through the male line and we read patriarchal geneologies in scripture. Israeli children's lineage was counted based on their father's tribe in Biblical times. A Benjamite male who married a woman from the tribe of Ephraim would have Benjamite children. These are similar to our custom of passing down the last name through the male lineage.
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We must claim "Biblical" even if we have to make up words like "helpmeet."
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Since 'meet' means something like 'suitable', that seems to be a reasonable translation. Also, it's a word that has been used historically for the concept since it is from the KJV.
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To make the nebulous charge that a refusal to take his last name "could show some problems with accepting some Biblical principles about marriage" is an emotional appeal to fear.
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No, it's a practical and realistic approach to the issue. There are many reasons why a woman would want to keep her maiden name. Some of them have been mentioned on the thread, like career reasons or cultural reasons. If two Chinese people get married and follow Chinese naming traditions after marriage, I don't see that as strange. My wife's culture is patriarchal, and women don't legally change their last names. They do go by their husband's last name, the equivalent of 'Mrs.', in some situations.
But in the US, a woman might refuse to take her husbands last name based on some type of feminist ideology. That's what a man may need to look out for.
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So would you say your sexual identity is tied up in your wife taking your last name?
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Not really. It's a cultural tradition in my country. If I'd spent the remainder of my life in the Batak highlands among my wife's clan, we may never have changed her name. They'd call me by my first child's name, and later by my first grandson's name. But me taking her last name... that would be weird.
| Quote: |
In other words, you wouldn't feel "manly" to "sit on the floor of your parents' living room trying to avoid a panic attack in the face of opposition," |
I think Dave Dorsey answered this well. I don't find sitting on the floor to avoid conversation with relatives over fear of having a panic attack to be especially masculine behavior.
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Posts: 11849
12/29/15 2:26 am
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bonnie knox |
I love how these two paragraphs are getting characterized here. Dave characterized it as
| Quote: | | sitting in the floor and whining |
Link characterized it as
| Quote: | | sitting on the floor to avoid conversation with relatives over fear of having a panic attack |
This is how the original paragraphs read (see if you recognize it, lol):
It boiled over one night where I was so angry that I nearly had a panic attack and found myself sitting on the living room floor with my loved ones, trying to keep myself from popping off at someone. My mother, to her credit, offered the suggestion that we hyphenate our last names. That issue wasn’t on the table, and for good reason: the actions of others had pushed it off. Even if I wanted to hyphenate my last name (and I didn’t), the issue was about my last name, and not my character. The issue was about the assumption that the woman takes the man’s last name, and that is that.
I recall my sentiment quite clearly: I will not be bullied about this. I’m 6 feet tall, bearded, a former swimmer and water polo player, moderately handsome (evidenced by the fact that Allison married me), and a lover of cigars and dark beer. I’m pretty manly (when I take off my shirt, small children point and say things about Bigfoot) and that was the first time I put my foot down on this issue. |
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12/29/15 10:17 am
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Dave Dorsey |
The issue was about someone wanting to be a special little snowflake, and that is that. 
Joking aside, I don't doubt the purity of his motives or intentions, but you'll have to forgive me for not falling over myself to commend his bravery and courage. I won't take any time to criticize it either, but I do not see it as a "bold, counter-cultural move". Being different does not make you special or worthy of praise.
Last edited by Dave Dorsey on 12/29/15 10:43 am; edited 2 times in total |
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12/29/15 10:34 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | I always love masculine tough-guy talk. |
You'd love the guy in this article. He's got a beard, drinks beer, smokes cigars, and plays sports. What a man! |
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12/29/15 10:35 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Git ya one a them homeschoolin girls what knows her place as helpmeet. |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | I've met a woman or two like that. I don't really "get" it. |
I think your last few posts in this thread are interesting in light of your (apparent) derision toward women who feel differently about this than you do.
It seems Link and I are not the only ones who look down on those of our gender who do not feel as we do. 
Last edited by Dave Dorsey on 12/29/15 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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12/29/15 11:09 am
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bonnie knox |
I think you already have criticized it. How can you at once say you won't criticize his motives and also that he wants to be a special snowflake?
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | The issue was about someone wanting to be a special little snowflake, and that is that.
Joking aside, I don't doubt the purity of his motives or intentions, but you'll have to forgive me for not falling over myself to commend his bravery and courage. I won't take any time to criticize it either, but I do not see it as a "bold, counter-cultural move". Being different does not make you special or worthy of praise. |
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12/29/15 11:09 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Joking aside, ... |
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12/29/15 11:10 am
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bonnie knox |
I'm not saying they aren't feminine if they feel that way. Or that they must feel the way I feel to be truly feminine. I'm not putting them down; I saying I don't identify with them!
As for the homeschooling girls, I'm not putting the girls down; I'm hating the system (do research on Doug Phillips who forced himself on the nanny while preaching that girls submit to the men in their life or Doug Wilson who is trying to smear a former church member was the victim of statutory rape in an environment that excused the culprit and blamed the victim) which tells girls they must do what men tell them.
As for the woman or two that I've met, yes, I've met a few like that. Once, a lady at my church gave me a little smug, reproving statement about the man being the priest of the home. It was an inaccurate thing to say and not helpful to the situation. Our pastor's wife tells of how when she was a young Christian she would not seek things for herself or study for herself; she figured if she had questions she would ask her husband.
Last edited by bonnie knox on 12/29/15 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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12/29/15 11:37 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Hating the system? What does that even mean? |
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Posts: 13654
12/29/15 11:40 am
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bonnie knox |
Okay, I've lost a long comment twice, so I'm posting in parts here.
The above response was in reply to the charge that I look down on women who see things differently than I do.
Which is actually NOT the charge I made about Link and Dave and their response to the guy in ONE OF THE TWO articles I linked to. What I tried to say was that they criticized the guy as not being masculine because they tied giving their last name to their wives as a masculine thing.
No, I'm not saying women who want their husbands to be a spiritual leader are not feminine. I'm not saying a woman who doesn't see things as I do is not feminine. |
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Posts: 14803
12/29/15 11:40 am
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