Actscelerate.com Forum Index Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
@actscelerate Twitter  @actscelerate Facebook  @actscelerate Google+ 

Take the Matthew 24 Grammar Challenge.
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
   Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Hot Discussions Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Message Author
Post The strict Constructionis
Spartanfan said...
Quote:
How scholarly is it to take the "few they be that find it" comment of Jesus talking about salvation and applying it to your oneness and post-trib heresies


Never crossed my mind. This is something you are (wrongly) assuming. By now everyone knows that I come here to dialog with my BRETHREN. Now call me a liar.


Last edited by The strict Constructionis on 6/17/11 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4295
6/17/11 9:36 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Nope... spartanfan
wouldn't call a brother a liar. Maybe it didn't cross your mind, but read what you wrote. I looks like your using the "few that be that find it" which I'm sure you'll agree applies to "the way of salvation" and comparing it to your post-trib view. I don't want this to come off as some me vs. you thing. We can agree that we are both sincere and we disagree on this. Peace brother! Cool Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3596
6/17/11 9:40 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: Nope... The strict Constructionis
spartanfan wrote:
wouldn't call a brother a liar. Maybe it didn't cross your mind, but read what you wrote. I looks like your using the "few that be that find it" which I'm sure you'll agree applies to "the way of salvation" and comparing it to your post-trib view. I don't want this to come off as some me vs. you thing. We can agree that we are both sincere and we disagree on this. Peace brother! Cool


That's cool. But sometimes you do try to pair me with a straw man ,the stereo typical UPC guy that thinks everyone else from other Churches is going to hell, a straw man that hardly exists anymore within our ranks. My reference to "few there be" was to remind you that the Christian is indeed a "minority" that appears to be a fringe radical to the world.

I'm glad you and I can use these parodies to sling mud at each other and still be friends. I never mean it personal. Kind of reminds me of that Star Treck episode when on the "shore leave planet" Kirk duked it out with his old college days antagonist "Finnegan". They beat the snot out of each other and smiled and laughed all the while. Wink
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4295
6/17/11 9:48 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Luke's writings are enlightening to me... spartanfan
I've studied this a lot (some say too much). But one thing that really causes me to raise and eyebrow is the difference in meaning of 2 similar statements made by Jesus found in Matthew and Luke.
In Matt. 24:28 He says, "....For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
Then in Luke 17:37 He says, "...Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

On the surface we would just assume that both verses are saying the same thing. But, in Matthew, the word "body" is rightly translated as carcass. The word in the Greek is ptoma meaning "lifeless body". This translation is true throughout the NT. However, In
the Luke passage, Jesus uses a different word that creates a stark contrast...Instead of ptoma or a "lifeless body"; Jesus uses the word soma
or a "living body". Literally, this phrase could read: where the "flying
eagles" are gathered, there the "living body" will be.

Jesus had stated that upon His return, He would come in the clouds. Coming with Jesus on that day will be the saints. that make up the body of Christ. A living body in the clouds.

I appears then that there are 2 eagle gatherings. The eagles will gather around the dead bodies of those slain at the 2nd phase of His second coming but those looking for Him will taken up in the clouds as "the living body of Christ" in the clouds (where the eagles fly) at the Rapture which happens some 7 plus years before Armageddon.

If we're looking at grammar, how else do you explain Jesus using "ptoma" or carcass in Matthew and "soma" or living body in Luke?
would you like to gather around them as the living body of Christ? For it
is through the event known as the rapture of the church that we who
believe in Jesus will one day find ourselves assembled where eagles are.


Last edited by spartanfan on 6/18/11 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3596
6/18/11 8:38 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post The strict Constructionis
Quote:
For it
is through the event known as the rapture of the church that we who
believe in Jesus will one day find ourselves assembled where eagles are.



I did allot of studying last night on this, and most scholars do NOT think this reference (eagles/vultures) is anything but a reference to judgment.

But even if it were as you say, the rapture is still found as the trib is ending. Nothing changes that.
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4295
6/18/11 9:11 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post RE: Re: @Ed Brewer Ed Brewer
Just a couple of things in response to your response to my response (I'm dizzy) --
Quote:
Quote:
I believe this reference is speaking of the redeemed of Israel during the tribulation hour,

I'd agree they are included. But a disciple is a disciple.

A horse is a horse, of course of course, but there's only one Mr. Ed - it's important to know WHICH disciples are being addressed in order to keep the discussion in context.

Quote:
Quote:
Your appeal to Romans, Colossian, and Titus only serves to emphasize the fact that Paul considered the New Testament JEWISH Christians to be part of the elect


I don't really embrace "replacement theology". However, Paul also makes it clear that one is not a Jew who is a Jew "outwardly".

Small point, but there is a difference in covenant and bloodline - affiliation and genetics - this is an important point in that Paul's letter is not addressed to an ethnicity, but to a theological covenant grouping.

Quote:
Quote:
Besides, this scripture (2 Thessalonians) is not even addressed to the elect of Israel, but to the Church.


Again, you have to really twist the word to make this assumption. You show YOUR embrace of a radical dispensationalism. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek.

How is it 'twisting the Word' to keep the message in it's historical context? Methinks you betray your presuppositions, my friend.

Quote:
Quote:
Wow! Your presumptions are showing, SC. What is your specific scriptural justification for suggesting that Paul was thinking about 'the abomination of desolation' here? This is the context....


You are the first person I've ever heard who DOESN'T think this Paul is referring to the Abomination of Desolation. Paul clearly is talking about EXACTLY what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24. This deception happens when the anti-Christ reveals himself with lying signs and wonders.

Thank you for allowing me to 'stretch' your eschatological horizons, Kemo Sabe. I know it may be a bit bookish of me, but please provide the specific scriptural reasoning for concluding these two events are the same... I'm open - I just haven't found it. Short of that, I prefer to let the Word speak for itself independently, and I believe the position I've outlined is the literal application of that Word. I'm not using that invitation for clarification as a literary device - I really am open to correction if the Word provides it.

Quote:
Quote:
All three references attributed to Christ by Matthew concern the beginning of the 'Great Tribulation' or 'the time of Jacob's Trouble' that will occur 'in the midst' of the Tribulation


Again, you base many of your views on dispensationalist assumptions. I don't see a difference between the "Tribulation" and the "Great Tribulation". Nor do I see a seven year tribulation. Yes, one can argue that there is a seven year covenant made between the anti-Christ and Israel, but only the last 3-1/2 of that time period is "Tribulation".

One thing that I'm sure you will agree with is the need to allow scripture to interpret scripture. Without an appeal to Jeremiah 30, Daniel 9, 11, and 12 as well as Revelation 6-12, it is impossible to 'flesh out' this understanding. Once those scriptures are taken into account (especially Daniel 12:11-13), the specifics of the Tribulation timeline come into specific relief. These are not 'dispensationalist assumptions' as you suggest, but a matter of sound exegesis.

Quote:
Certainly part of whom Jesus was addressing will be CHRISTIANS (they that dwell in Judea) living in Israel. But sir, there are MANY Christians of MANY ethnicities living in Israel right now. He didn't say that only the JEWISH Christians should flee Jerusalem. But again, you are basing your belief on an assumption that the Church age will have already ended with a secret rapture. In all kindness I say that I must also assume that your justification for this secret rapture not being mentioned in Matthew 24 is because the Church was still " a hidden mystery yet to be revealed " or something along those lines.

Thank you for your dialogue, my friend, and also for the respectful tone of this exchange - very refreshing in light of some of this board's content. I would agree, of course, that there are Christians of every ethnic ilk in Israel today, but that is not, in my opinion, the crux of the issue. For some reason you have ascribed to me a belief in some 'secret rapture' (that term is pregnant with meaning, the meat of which I am not able to discern). Nothing could be further from the truth! The rapture is a very real promise and the blessed hope of the Church. The only thing secret about it is the time of it's occurrence.

The tendency to universalize scripture application is appealing for anyone who believes the Word is God's message to all people (as do I), but it is patently dangerous to de-contextualize every word in favor of modern personal application without exegetical merit. We learn from all, glean from all, and are strengthened by all, but we are in patent error if we presume that we - specifically, individually, and currently - are addressed by all. Matthew 24 was without question addressed to the children of national Israel; as such the Lord's focus was not on assuaging the apocalyptic angst of future generations - it was on preparing national Israel for the culmination of their specific covenant as a people. The tone, context, and scope of His remarks were accordingly fashioned. An attempt to apply these very graphic but focussed words to the generalities of the entire Kingdom's outcome risks opening the floodgate of error.

Just one more thing... to dismiss... what did you call it? 'radical dispensationalism' - yes, that... to dismiss out of hand the idea that God's covenants with peoples throughout the ages necessitates differing responses and interactions with those people is akin to intellectual seppuku. God is not limited, but we most certainly are. The theological truths that we are not 'jews outwardly' or that there is no male/female, bond/free et al. in no way negates the fact that those distinctions, obviously, exist in the natural world. The Word is addressed to us in this present age, and as such is sometimes targeted to specific peoples with specifically prejudiced messages. One of the great exercises of true Biblical scholarship is to faithfully discern those factors along with the text itself in order that we might be able to 'rightly divide the word of truth'. Does that leave us with 'diversities of administrations' - you betcha - that's why this is life-long journey instead of a night school course. I appreciate your position, and am challenged by your journey - even if I disagree with some of your conclusions. Blessings to you.
_________________
....from Barney Creek to Bountyland through every open door
Friendly Face
Posts: 312
6/18/11 2:02 pm


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Ed, one thing I appreciate about you..... The strict Constructionis
...is that you don't try to change the clear context of the "Days of Noah " comparison in Matthew 24 into some "other event" by the clever twisting of a common Greek phrase. At least you are honest enough to admit that your view is a dispensational one. Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4295
6/18/11 9:58 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: Ed, one thing I appreciate about you..... spartanfan
The strict Constructionis wrote:
...is that you don't try to change the clear context of the "Days of Noah " comparison in Matthew 24 into some "other event" by the clever twisting of a common Greek phrase. At least you are honest enough to admit that your view is a dispensational one.


The Days of Noah reference by Jesus simply means "life going on business as usual" just before the Lord appears. From the foundation of the world, there have been those who have scoffed at the Word of God. The apostle Peter informed us in 2 Peter 3:3 that scoffers would continue to be around in the last days, jeering at God and His children. Peter also told us exactly what the scoffers would be saying: “All things continue as they are from the beginning of creation.”

That's why the post-trib theory is ridiculous. If we compare "people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" to a time when there will be food and water shortages, catastrophic events that cause mass human destruction, trees and grass being scorched, water turning to poison, seas turning to blood, and people literally seeking death, it just doesn't make sense that it is the same time period being discussed when Jesus said, "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. "For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.

That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come." (Matthew 24:37-42)

In fact, if we try to place the Second Coming just after the Great Tribulation with the knowledge that Jesus specifically described the days of Noah as a time when people were going about their everyday lives, then it would substantially undermine the severity of all that is going to happen during the Great Tribulation. We would then be saying that people will be going about life as usual despite all that happened during the Great Tribulation. That's just ridiculous.

I'm sorry but the "it will just seem like normal to them" like a couple of guys have said or affirmed here is just crazy. When you read the Revelation about the chaos that is upon the Earth and the disasters and demonic hordes stinging the people with the mark and the people crying for the rocks to fall on them, wanting to die you can't really believe that "it will just seem normal to them." That's what Randy said and Strict wholeheartedy agreed to. To me, from that point on, I felt sorry for them. I'd like to hear them say again, "It will just seem that life is business as usual for them because they support the Antichrist." That's nuts. The mark of the beast they have will result in them being plagued by God with grievous sores. Are they saying that God is so powerless that His trumpet judgments will have such little effect on the wicked He is judging that it will just feel like "life as normal" to them, like it did for those who mocked and jeered at Noah?

Only the pre-Trib Rapture fits what Jesus said. That's a fact. I'd like to hear another "it will just seem like life as normal to the wicked during the tribulation right up until the time that Jesus appears after the 21 judgments" statement by Randy or Strict. Because that statement right there is enough for me to know that they are incapeable of dealing sensibly with this issue.
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3596
6/18/11 11:08 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Spartanfan The strict Constructionis
Quote:
That's why the post-trib theory is ridiculous. If we compare "people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" to a time when there will be food and water shortages, catastrophic events that cause mass human destruction, trees and grass being scorched, water turning to poison, seas turning to blood, and people literally seeking death, it just doesn't make sense that it is the same time period being discussed when Jesus said, "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. "For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.


There are NUMEROUS possibilities here.

Perhaps you are wrong for thinking Revelation is in strict chronological order. Perhaps this ideas of "six seals, later six trumpets, later six bowls" all lasting for seven years is where you are getting tripped up. In fact, Jesus starts describing the most dramatic, cataclysmic events as commencing AFTER the Tribulation and immediately before his appearing (Matt 24:29). Perhaps we should interpret Revelation in light of what Jesus said (as recorded in Matthew 24) long before Revelation was written. Perhaps there are some things here we ALL are missing.

But all that aside, no matter how ridiculous you might think all of this is, you CANNOT escape the fact that Jesus is describing ONE event from Matthew 24:30 to the end of the chapter. You don't need a Greek scholar to be able to see that. So you should start accepting the word as written and leave your questions in God's hands. Instead, you base your position on what your human mind thinks is more "logical'. Big mistake.

If you want to believe in a pre-trib rapture, then embrace it from a dispensational viewpoint. Just say it's missing from Matthew 24 because it is a gentile issue and that the church was still a "hidden mystery" at that point. Hey, I used to! Wink
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4295
6/18/11 11:27 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: Ed, one thing I appreciate about you..... Ed Brewer
The strict Constructionis wrote:
...is that you don't try to change the clear context of the "Days of Noah " comparison in Matthew 24 into some "other event" by the clever twisting of a common Greek phrase. At least you are honest enough to admit that your view is a dispensational one.


Trying to make the 'Days of Noah' comparison apply as particularly definitive of either specific event is a bit akin to running to the rapture window every time the earth wiggles or some two bit dictator blows up a trash-can. This, among other signs (such as the ones to which I grinningly referred) is meant to describe the general conditions of the hours in question, but simply cannot be viewed as particularly predictive - the prophecies are too general and have been repeated throughout history in one form or another. (Luke 21:9; Matthew 24:6) The tone of both proof texts seems, in my opinion, to be setting the stage in macro-scopic terms, and will be definitive only in the perspective of 20/20 hindsight from the other side of the Rapture. If it were otherwise, man would be able to develop a pretty strong circumstantial case for the 'day and hour' that is specifically hidden (Matthew 24:36) from the angels and even Christ himself (that one stretches your understanding of the Omniscience of Christ, huh). This point perhaps more than any other connected with the Rapture Doctrine amplifies the necessity of being ready at all times. The context of Matthew 24 & Luke 21 makes it exceedingly clear that the next DEFINITIVE sign of the 'harpazo' from 2 Thess 2:7 is the 'harpazo' from 2 Thess 2:7 -- no wake-up calls, children - just gotta be ready!

BTW, while I appreciate your kind words, I'm just a tad uncomfortable being described as 'dispensational' - conjures up too many images of theological goose-stepping - I believe the Word describes a circumstantial interaction between an unchanging God and His ever-changing creation, with all the commensurate adjustments required to keep the lines of communication and covenant open and secure. Thanks again for the dialogue. Blessings!!
_________________
....from Barney Creek to Bountyland through every open door
Friendly Face
Posts: 312
6/18/11 11:57 pm


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Re: Spartanfan spartanfan
From the outset I have said that the Days of Noah comment just simply indicates that it will be business as usual right up until the time of the second coming of Christ. Now to get around that fact you are suggesting that the 7 seal, 7 trumpet and 7 vial judgments may not be in chronological order? That would qualify as the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard a self-proclaimed Bible prophecy (and Greek grammar expert) make. Honestly - you can't be serious, can you? If so then I am going to stop this intellectual dual immediately because it would be wrong to shoot an unarmed man! Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3596
6/19/11 3:08 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: Spartanfan The strict Constructionis
spartanfan wrote:
From the outset I have said that the Days of Noah comment just simply indicates that it will be business as usual right up until the time of the second coming of Christ. Now to get around that fact you are suggesting that the 7 seal, 7 trumpet and 7 vial judgments may not be in chronological order? That would qualify as the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard a self-proclaimed Bible prophecy (and Greek grammar expert) make. Honestly - you can't be serious, can you? If so then I am going to stop this intellectual dual immediately because it would be wrong to shoot an unarmed man!


God, you sound like such an arrogant know it all, Spartan. Can you show no humility here? Do you REALLY think you know everything about Revelation? And when did I ever claim to be an expert.

BTW, I talked to a noted Bible Prophecy teacher who is ADAMANT pre-trib and he says you are full of it. This pretribber says that the "one taken-one left" story is NOT the pre-trib rapture. Like me, he says these people are taken off guard at the second coming (despite all the events happening) because of DELUSION. You don't think it's possible that by then people will be so hardened that even blatant fulfillment of prophecies won't get their attention? Rolling Eyes

BTW, now Perry Stone is questioning a literal thousand year reign! You'd better set him straight!! Laughing
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4295
6/19/11 8:22 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: Spartanfan spartanfan
The strict Constructionis wrote:
spartanfan wrote:
From the outset I have said that the Days of Noah comment just simply indicates that it will be business as usual right up until the time of the second coming of Christ. Now to get around that fact you are suggesting that the 7 seal, 7 trumpet and 7 vial judgments may not be in chronological order? That would qualify as the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard a self-proclaimed Bible prophecy (and Greek grammar expert) make. Honestly - you can't be serious, can you? If so then I am going to stop this intellectual dual immediately because it would be wrong to shoot an unarmed man!


God, you sound like such an arrogant know it all, Spartan. Can you show no humility here? Do you REALLY think you know everything about Revelation? And when did I ever claim to be an expert.

BTW, I talked to a noted Bible Prophecy teacher who is ADAMANT pre-trib and he says you are full of it. This pretribber says that the "one taken-one left" story is NOT the pre-trib rapture. Like me, he says these people are taken off guard at the second coming (despite all the events happening) because of DELUSION. You don't think it's possible that by then people will be so hardened that even blatant fulfillment of prophecies won't get their attention? Rolling Eyes

BTW, now Perry Stone is questioning a literal thousand year reign! You'd better set him straight!! Laughing


Please, do not call me God. I am just a man and fellow servant of the Lord! Razz
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3596
6/19/11 8:39 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post The strict Constructionis
Quote:
Please, do not call me God. I am just a man and fellow servant of the Lord! Razz
Razz Laughing
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4295
6/19/11 8:48 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Hot Discussions Post new topic   Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Acts-celerate Terms of Use | Acts-celerate Policy
World News Network | Acts-celerate Chat
Contact the Administrator.


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group :: Spelling by SpellingCow.