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Does God hate sinners?
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Post kmann1
p5harri wrote:
kmann1 wrote:
Lord Chancellor wrote:
No, God does not hate sinners.

Sorry.



Is it biblical to say that God hates those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life? Or those that are not part of the elect?


No. But please print me off a list of the elect so we know who to visit.

Patrick


That's a good one.
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5/9/11 9:24 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
One problem with the Calvinist view of this is the text states God hates ALL workers of iniquity. Of course it is also true Calvinists generally find it necessary to redefine the word "all" in several instances. Acts-perienced Poster
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5/9/11 9:35 pm


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Post Affection or Love: Which one? diakoneo
Lord Chancellor wrote:
No, God does not hate sinners.

Sorry.



I think terminology is causing a disconnect here. If by hate you mean that the feelings of affection God has is somehow different for one than another, then that could be where we are getting crossways. I think God feels equally affectionate for all, but God undoubtably loves those who will obey Him MORE, because love is an ACTION. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous avails much, but God does not hear the prayer of the rebellious, unless it is repentance from a contrite heart. God grants favor to those who will obey Him and in the end a crown of life. Not so for the rebellious. They have chosen the broad path that leads to destruction and the way of a transgressor is HARD!

So if you mean love in the sense of simple affection, I would say that God loves all equally and of course, desires that no one perish.
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5/9/11 9:41 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
When understood as unselfish benevolence, the highest good for all, the apparent contradiction between love and hate is resolved. Acts-perienced Poster
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5/10/11 12:15 am


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Post MFWKC
It is difficult to separate the humble incarnate Jesus (our example for how we should live our lives), and the post ascension, sitting at the right hand of God, Jesus.

Revelation 19 does a good job of describing the current and future.

11Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords

When you include the surrounding versus to the original one, it is pretty easy to see, that the "God loves everyone" idea is not really scriptural.

Psalm 5:4-6

4For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not dwell with you.
5The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you HATE all evildoers.
6You destroy those who speak lies;
the LORD ABHORS the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

I guess an arguement could be made that there could be a difference between a "sinner", since we are all sinners, and a evildoer or worker of iniquity. .

That is why God can judge intent and motive. He knows our hearts.

So we could say that there is a category of God rejecting, debased minded, self-centered sinners that God does HATE/ABHOR

To deny that would be to deny scripture. I am not prepared to do that.

At the same time, that is God's business to deal with. We are commanded to love.

Another question comes to mind in Romans 1, who turns men over to a debased mind, lusts of their hearts, and dishonorable passions?

He seems to take outright rejection pretty seriously.
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5/10/11 8:02 am


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Post The strict Constructionis
MFWKC wrote:
It is difficult to separate the humble incarnate Jesus (our example for how we should live our lives), and the post ascension, sitting at the right hand of God, Jesus.

Revelation 19 does a good job of describing the current and future.

11Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords

When you include the surrounding versus to the original one, it is pretty easy to see, that the "God loves everyone" idea is not really scriptural.

Psalm 5:4-6

4For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not dwell with you.
5The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you HATE all evildoers.
6You destroy those who speak lies;
the LORD ABHORS the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

I guess an arguement could be made that there could be a difference between a "sinner", since we are all sinners, and a evildoer or worker of iniquity. .

That is why God can judge intent and motive. He knows our hearts.

So we could say that there is a category of God rejecting, debased minded, self-centered sinners that God does HATE/ABHOR

To deny that would be to deny scripture. I am not prepared to do that.

At the same time, that is God's business to deal with. We are commanded to love.

Another question comes to mind in Romans 1, who turns men over to a debased mind, lusts of their hearts, and dishonorable passions?

He seems to take outright rejection pretty seriously.



Great Post
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5/10/11 8:51 pm


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Post Randy Johnson
Maybe part of the problem is with our definition of love?
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5/10/11 8:52 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Randy Johnson wrote:
Maybe part of the problem is with our definition of love?
That's what I think.
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5/10/11 9:10 pm


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Post MFWKC
Randy Johnson wrote:
Maybe part of the problem is with our definition of love?


I agree
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5/10/11 9:49 pm


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Post diakoneo
Quote:
Randy Johnson wrote:
Maybe part of the problem is with our definition of love?


Absolutely!

But I think our definition of hate too!

Quote:
MFWKC wrote:
I guess an arguement could be made that there could be a difference between a "sinner", since we are all sinners, and a evildoer or worker of iniquity. .

That is why God can judge intent and motive. He knows our hearts.


Are we all sinners? To me that means that Christians practice sin, much as a doctor practices medicine.

The following is from the Adam Clarke Commentary on Romans 5:6:

Quote:
For when we were yet without strength - The apostle, having pointed out the glorious state of the believing Gentiles, takes occasion to contrast this with their former state; and the means by which they were redeemed from it. Their former state he points out in four particulars; which may be applied to men in general.
I. They were, without strength; in a weak, dying state: neither able to resist sin, nor do any good: utterly devoid of power to extricate themselves from the misery of their situation.
II. They were ασεβεις, ungodly; without either the worship or knowledge of the true God; they had not God in them; and, consequently, were not partakers of the Divine nature: Satan lived in, ruled, and enslaved their hearts.
III. They were ἁμαρτωλοι, sinners, Rom_5:8, aiming at happiness, but constantly missing the mark, which is the ideal meaning of the Hebrew חטא chata, and the Greek ἁμαρτανω. See this explained, Gen_13:13. And in missing the mark, they deviated from the right way; walked in the wrong way; trespassed in thus deviating; and, by breaking the commandments of God, not only missed the mark of felicity, but exposed themselves to everlasting misery.
IV. They were εχθροι enemies, Rom_5:10, from εχθος, hatred, enmity, persons who hated God and holiness; and acted in continual hostility to both. What a gradation is here!
1. In our fall from God, our first apparent state is, that we are without strength; have lost our principle of spiritual power, by having lost the image of God, righteousness and true holiness, in which we were created.
2. We are ungodly, having lost our strength to do good; we have also lost all power to worship God aright. The mind which was made for God is no longer his residence.
3. We are sinners; feeling we have lost our centre of rest, and our happiness, we go about seeking rest, but find none: what we have lost in losing God, we seek in earthly things; and thus are continually missing the mark, and multiplying transgressions against our Maker.
4. We are enemies; sin, indulged, increases in strength; evil acts engender fixed and rooted habits; the mind, every where poisoned with sin, increases in averseness from good; and mere aversion produces enmity; and enmity, acts of hostility, fell cruelty, etc.: so that the enemy of God hates his Maker and his service; is cruel to his fellow creatures; a foe to God, was neer true friend to man; and even torments his own soul! Though every man brings into the world the seeds of all these evils, yet it is only by growing up in him that they acquire their perfection - nemo repente fuit turpissimus - no man becomes a profligate at once; he arrives at it by slow degrees; and the speed he makes is proportioned to his circumstances, means of gratifying sinful passions, evil education, bad company, etc., etc. These make a great diversity in the moral states of men: all have the same seeds of evil - nemo sine vitiis nascitur - all come defiled into the world; but all have not the same opportunities of cultivating these seeds. Besides, as Gods Spirit is continually convincing the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and the ministers of God are seconding its influence with their pious exhortations, as the Bible is in almost every house, and is less or more heard or read by almost every person, these evil seeds are receiving continual blasts and checks, so that, in many cases, they have not a vigorous growth. These causes make the principal moral differences that we find among men; though in evil propensities they are all radically the same.


That will preach! We were without strength, we were ungodly, we were sinners and therefore we were enemies of God. God loves His enemies too, but He loves them less than His friends.
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5/10/11 11:16 pm


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Post MFWKC
I don't know about your idea of practicing sin, but I don't know anyone without sin.

Do you know any Christians who are sinless? Do you know any who claim to be?

I think willful practicing of sin would lead me to believe there was never a true conversion fhrough repentance and faith.
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5/11/11 8:20 am


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Quiet Wyatt wrote:
One problem with the Calvinist view of this is the text states God hates ALL workers of iniquity. Of course it is also true Calvinists generally find it necessary to redefine the word "all" in several instances.


Is there a difference between sin and iniquity?

I recall my Hebrew professor explaining that the Hebrew word for wickedness was used to describe someone worse than the word for bad or evil.

I'm bringing this up for the sake of discussion, not stating an opinion here.
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5/11/11 2:19 pm


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Post diakoneo
MFWKC wrote:
I don't know about your idea of practicing sin, but I don't know anyone without sin.

Do you know any Christians who are sinless? Do you know any who claim to be?

I think willful practicing of sin would lead me to believe there was never a true conversion fhrough repentance and faith.


Are you asking if I know anyone perfect? Of course I do, Jesus Christ. Why would Jesus tell the woman caught in adultery, "go and sin no more" if it was not possible. Why would He tell the man healed at the pool of Bethesda, "sin no more lest a worse thing happens to you" if it could not be done.

IMO this argument of not being able to stay free of sin is used to make those who are attempting to do so, look Spiritually prideful and to discourage them (I mean why bother if it is impossible, right.) What is wrong with trying to live sin free?

"You have to sin everyday" Is that what Jesus said? Where did that idea come from? Is it a biblical concept or manmade? A preacher ought to be a preacher of righteousness, right . Preach the whole council of God. Instead of "if we sin we have an advocate with the father Jesus Christ," preach "Brother I write to you that you sin not, but if you do you have an advocate..." Stop looking for a loophole to keep doing what you are doing!

What is the difference, between willful practicing and saying I just can't help it, I have to sin. Isn't that saying, I don't have the will to "not sin". I believe a lot of this comes from a cavalier attitude about sin. We don't mourn over our sin like we should. Isn't this from a lack of reverence for a Holy God, who died on the cross...who said not my will? If He told us not to, shouldn't we obey Him? If He saved us, shouldn't we die to sin, take up the cross and follow Him? We ought to mourn over our sin rather than to say, I can't help it! After all, how much sin is too much sin?
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5/12/11 7:58 am


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Post MFWKC
diakoneo wrote:
MFWKC wrote:
I don't know about your idea of practicing sin, but I don't know anyone without sin.

Do you know any Christians who are sinless? Do you know any who claim to be?

I think willful practicing of sin would lead me to believe there was never a true conversion fhrough repentance and faith.


Are you asking if I know anyone perfect? Of course I do, Jesus Christ. Why would Jesus tell the woman caught in adultery, "go and sin no more" if it was not possible. Why would He tell the man healed at the pool of Bethesda, "sin no more lest a worse thing happens to you" if it could not be done.

IMO this argument of not being able to stay free of sin is used to make those who are attempting to do so, look Spiritually prideful and to discourage them (I mean why bother if it is impossible, right.) What is wrong with trying to live sin free?

"You have to sin everyday" Is that what Jesus said? Where did that idea come from? Is it a biblical concept or manmade? A preacher ought to be a preacher of righteousness, right . Preach the whole council of God. Instead of "if we sin we have an advocate with the father Jesus Christ," preach "Brother I write to you that you sin not, but if you do you have an advocate..." Stop looking for a loophole to keep doing what you are doing!

What is the difference, between willful practicing and saying I just can't help it, I have to sin. Isn't that saying, I don't have the will to "not sin". I believe a lot of this comes from a cavalier attitude about sin. We don't mourn over our sin like we should. Isn't this from a lack of reverence for a Holy God, who died on the cross...who said not my will? If He told us not to, shouldn't we obey Him? If He saved us, shouldn't we die to sin, take up the cross and follow Him? We ought to mourn over our sin rather than to say, I can't help it! After all, how much sin is too much sin?


Now you are changing the subject..and not answering the question directly.

It actually isn't a cavalier attitude about sin. It is a inaccurate view of God and Jesus that causes what you are talking about.

We don't need to "mourn" sin, we need to have conviction that brings us to repentance. That comes from a higher view of God than the one that is commonly taught in the "easy to believe", God and Jesus Loves everyone, it is all about "you", gospel that we currently have in this country.

On the flipside, we get the legalistic, "I don't do the don't dos" people who like to think that we are saved by are good works or morality.

I am not a "everything is under the blood" and keep on sinning person. I believe God wants us to hunger and thirst for righteousness. That righteousness is found in Jesus and we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to live it as well.

It is all about him. Even when we live a righteous life, it is God who gets the credit. If he doesn't then we are self-righteous and we tend to have pride in our own morality. That is sin as well.
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5/12/11 9:46 am


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Post kmann1
MFWKC wrote:
diakoneo wrote:
MFWKC wrote:
I don't know about your idea of practicing sin, but I don't know anyone without sin.

Do you know any Christians who are sinless? Do you know any who claim to be?

I think willful practicing of sin would lead me to believe there was never a true conversion fhrough repentance and faith.


Are you asking if I know anyone perfect? Of course I do, Jesus Christ. Why would Jesus tell the woman caught in adultery, "go and sin no more" if it was not possible. Why would He tell the man healed at the pool of Bethesda, "sin no more lest a worse thing happens to you" if it could not be done.

IMO this argument of not being able to stay free of sin is used to make those who are attempting to do so, look Spiritually prideful and to discourage them (I mean why bother if it is impossible, right.) What is wrong with trying to live sin free?

"You have to sin everyday" Is that what Jesus said? Where did that idea come from? Is it a biblical concept or manmade? A preacher ought to be a preacher of righteousness, right . Preach the whole council of God. Instead of "if we sin we have an advocate with the father Jesus Christ," preach "Brother I write to you that you sin not, but if you do you have an advocate..." Stop looking for a loophole to keep doing what you are doing!

What is the difference, between willful practicing and saying I just can't help it, I have to sin. Isn't that saying, I don't have the will to "not sin". I believe a lot of this comes from a cavalier attitude about sin. We don't mourn over our sin like we should. Isn't this from a lack of reverence for a Holy God, who died on the cross...who said not my will? If He told us not to, shouldn't we obey Him? If He saved us, shouldn't we die to sin, take up the cross and follow Him? We ought to mourn over our sin rather than to say, I can't help it! After all, how much sin is too much sin?


Now you are changing the subject..and not answering the question directly.

It actually isn't a cavalier attitude about sin. It is a inaccurate view of God and Jesus that causes what you are talking about.

We don't need to "mourn" sin, we need to have conviction that brings us to repentance. That comes from a higher view of God than the one that is commonly taught in the "easy to believe", God and Jesus Loves everyone, it is all about "you", gospel that we currently have in this country.

On the flipside, we get the legalistic, "I don't do the don't dos" people who like to think that we are saved by are good works or morality.

I am not a "everything is under the blood" and keep on sinning person. I believe God wants us to hunger and thirst for righteousness. That righteousness is found in Jesus and we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to live it as well.

It is all about him. Even when we live a righteous life, it is God who gets the credit. If he doesn't then we are self-righteous and we tend to have pride in our own morality. That is sin as well.


1John 5:18 comes to mind as I read these points. Also Peter gives good instruction in 2Pet. 1:5-11.
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5/12/11 12:04 pm


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Post diakoneo
MFWKC wrote:
Quote:
Now you are changing the subject..and not answering the question directly


Sorry! Here is my long answer: I am in a body that is under the curse of sin:
Romans 6:6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

I am still in this body of sin, even if I am crucified with Him.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

While in this body, I am susceptible to this war in my members. No, I am not sinless. There was only one sinless, Jesus Christ!

However, should I be committing sin:
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


MFWKC wrote:
Quote:
It actually isn't a cavalier attitude about sin. It is a inaccurate view of God and Jesus that causes what you are talking about.


When Christians can laugh at sin and are entertained by it (i.e. a lot of what comes on television and some of the stuff on here Embarassed ), you don't think that is a cavalier attitude. I am not talking about unbelievers... Aren't we supposed to be the salt of the earth... Yes and that is probably caused by our inaccurate view of the Father and the Son.

MFWKC wrote:
Quote:
We don't need to "mourn" sin, we need to have conviction that brings us to repentance. That comes from a higher view of God than the one that is commonly taught in the "easy to believe", God and Jesus Loves everyone, it is all about "you", gospel that we currently have in this country.


2 Cor 7:10. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Agreed the mourning must lead to repentance if it has accomplished anything, but I am not talking about the sin of an individual, rather sin in our society as a whole. I believe the attitude we have in laughing at sin is a reflection of our attitude toward our own sin.

If everything is under the blood, I don't think we will keep on sinning! Everything being under the blood, to me means, you are identifying with the cross of Jesus Christ. Crucified with Him, yet living for Him.

MFWKC wrote:
Quote:
It is all about him. Even when we live a righteous life, it is God who gets the credit. If he doesn't then we are self-righteous and we tend to have pride in our own morality. That is sin as well.


Absolutely and when we live a life that is not righteous, whose name is defamed, ours or His?
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5/12/11 1:20 pm


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Post helping hand
I will say one more thing and be quiet. What God does hate is pride and if anyone thinks there is anything "good" in them that isn't there but by the hand of the Holy Spirit ...he decieves himself. The only one who can know the heart is God. None of us created ourselves, drew ourselves to God or saved ourselves. To sit here and say God hates sinners and "loves" us is about as prideful a bunch of BULL as I've ever heard! Can your dad beat up my daddy?? It sounds like ya'll are jealous cause you can't sin anymore or something. Come on ....tell me what's really got your panties in a wad! Is it that they can do some sinning that you really miss doing and God don't "hate em' like you think he should?? Me thinks the Lady doth protest too much. Let me clue you in on something. In God's economy...justice isn't the same as the way we see it and fairness isn't either.
Remember the story about the workers that were sent out at different times and were all paid the same...God doesn't see it as man see's it.
If we error on the side of love we cannot go wrong. I love you all and can't wait till Jesus talks to us all face to face!
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5/14/11 8:51 am


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