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Classical Pentecostals pushed to back of COG bus?
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Post Classical Pentecostals pushed to back of COG bus? doyle
I was reading through some of the posts about Conservative / Holiness members of the COG and found some of sheepdogandy comments to be very thoughtful. Following are words from his post:

"Today there exists an opposite discrimination if a woman does not wear the makeup, jewelry, short hair and pants TO CHURCH.

She is automatically assumed to be a long tongued, hateful, mean spirited person.

Some (a minority) in the Church of God do hold their own Camps and Camp Meeting in order to practice the faith in a environment free of Charismatic excess.

When the Charismatic Movement took over the Church of God (and everyone knows that happened) those who retained Classical Pentecostal convictions were moved to the back of the bus."
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Last edited by doyle on 1/24/11 1:42 pm; edited 4 times in total
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1/24/11 12:14 pm


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Post Roger Woodard
While I do not hold to many of the external issues we've fought over through the years. I do not quarrel with those who hold those convictions (my parents raised me in that tradition), but only those who remain judgmental toward those who do not. And no, all certainly are not mean spirited. For the most part, those folks built the COG. They should be honored, not vilified. Where are the pioneers among the new charismatic voices?
However, THERE IS A MUCH LARGER ISSUE CONFRONTING CLASSIC PENTECOSTALS! That is the full scale retreat from pentecostal manifestations. One of our growing churches that is now presented as a paradigm for church growth, allows no manifestations. So much so, some new members thought they had been attending a new Baptist church. With 6% (as per Dr Voorhis research) of membership who speak with tongues, & given the de-emphasis of tongues exemplified in floor debates at GA, the COG is Pentecostal in name only. Classic Pentecostals in the COG are not only pushed to the back of the bus, fewer & fewer are even on the bus.
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1/24/11 12:28 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Since my post in the other thread to a large extent engendered Andy's response, I do want to try and further clarify my view.

"Today there exists an opposite discrimination if a woman does not wear the makeup, jewelry, short hair and pants TO CHURCH.

She is automatically assumed to be a long tongued, hateful, mean spirited person."

I obviously cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I certainly do not ASSUME anything about such 'holiness' folks. In my experience it is their own words which I've heard with my own ears that lead me to CONCLUDE they do in fact think only they are truly living a holy life, and therefore only they are saved, since without holiness no one shall see God (which point I absolutely agree with and which the CoG does in fact still affirm in its DoF and Doctrinal Commitments)..

The really ironic thing is I absolutely can guarantee you I believe in true scriptural holiness MORE than they, but because I don't find evidence to support their view of 'holiness standards' (clothesline, hairline, etc.), to them I'm a liberal compromiser at best and certainly am a false teacher. It's so ridiculous it would be funny if it weren't so pathetic, thinking strict adherence to a dress code is an accurate indicator of Christian holiness.

Can a dress-code 'holiness' person be sweet and truly loving, genuinely accepting of other Christians who do no share their convictions? Obviously it's possible. I have personally seen it to be a rare thing. If one really believes they are pleasing the Lord by adhering to a dress-code, or that the Lord himself has shown them they must follow such a code, and God is no respector of persons, it then simply follows that anyone not obeying that same code of 'standards' is by definition disobeying God and not living holy.


Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 1/24/11 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Quiet Wyatt
Also, it is not evident that only those holding to 'old-time holiness standards' are able to rightfully claim the label 'classical Pentecostal.' I definitely identify myself as a classical Pentecostal.

It also is not, in my view, about anyone having to go to the back of the bus. It is about the truth about Christian living in righteousness and true holiness
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Post Larry Wiley
Growing up in a "Holiness" church as a child/teen I arrived at the conclusion that my friends that attended Baptist and Methodist churches (that was all there were in our community) were not truly Christians. My Dad who was a farmer/preacher never told me this, I arrived at that conclusion from what I heard others preach.

After all, their women never cut their hair. They wore pants, makeup and jewelry. Their men wore shorts and smoked or chewed tobacco. And to beat it all they went to picture shows and county fairs. Their children dressed out for PE. My dad sent a letter to my coach informing him that we did not believe in wearing short pants.

I don't remember the long tongued women or men for that matter. But they did seem to be the only true Christians.

I never did figure how my Dad and all the farmers in our church could grow tobacco, but did not believe in the use of it.

The church we attended is about 2 miles from the S. Ga. campground, and today they still hold to their beliefs.

Even though I no longer believe "holiness" is what you wear or what you do. I consider "holiness" people to be just as much Christian than any one else.

One of our major problems is the fact that we have gone from believing everything was sin to believing, nothing is sin.

EL Terry said; "Well you big dummy if you don't believe in mixed bathing, don't take soap with you". May not be an exact quote but if you knew EL you would probably agree that it is, pretty close.
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1/24/11 2:31 pm


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Post sheepdogandy
How many Classical Pentecostal ministers hold an Administrative Bishop's
position in the Church of God?

Men who claim the title.

How many take an active role at Camp Meeting, Prayer Conference etc...?

How many ministers are "on the way up" with a wife who declines to 'look the part"?

This is not a criticism but a sincere inquiry. Very Happy
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1/24/11 3:38 pm


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Post Missing the point doyle
No doubt a lot of people can vent or rant about what they feel was happening in reference to conservative / holiness folk.

But I would imagine that at least 90 percent of COG churches were built by conservative / holiness people. Some of them spent their entire life building up the COG.

THE POINT: Is there now a place for them within the COG fellowship?

I'd hope those who sacrificed so much for so long to build up the COG, could be participants in it WITHOUT a constant stream of bitterness toward them.


Though I don't hold to some of their beliefs, one thing I have found about them. They are sincere about Christ and dedicated to winning people to Him. And the fact that in the process they want to keep what they consider to be Holiness standards doesn't upset me at all.

Probably most people who rant against them and how awful they supposedly were, are worshiping in churches they built and may have been won to Christ by those same people.

There's no call here for everyone to go back to those former days but in our haste to become modernized, shouldn't we at least have a place in our denomination for those who helped get us this far?

D
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Post ibelieve
Ibelieve there is a place for them.
The problem is that not many people will convert to that lifestyle... and it is a lifestyle.
The age old complaint by many about the "look" and 'Convictions" of the "classical Pentecostals" is that these two things play a big part on what has formed their identity.

Can you be "classical pentecostal" and wear make-up, shorts and have long hair?
To many... the answer is no... because their identity is formed more by a "look" and "passed on traditions" than anything else.
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1/24/11 7:09 pm


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Post Larry Wiley
There is a "Holiness" church in our town. This church was a part of the "Holiness Baptist Church" in S. Ga. At one time they had several churches in this area. Their belief was much like the old line COG, accept the believed the church is going through the rapture. Many pastors in S. Ga came from the Holiness Baptist church. Men like Leroy Spivey, Wayne and Tracey Swanson, and Clyde Johns. Probably more that I cannot remember at this time.

There is also an Independent Baptist church that dresses like the "Holiness" folks in our area.
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Post Quiet Wyatt
Larry Wiley wrote:
There is a "Holiness" church in our town. This church was a part of the "Holiness Baptist Church" in S. Ga. At one time they had several churches in this area. Their belief was much like the old line COG, accept the believed the church is going through the rapture. Many pastors in S. Ga came from the Holiness Baptist church. Men like Leroy Spivey, Wayne and Tracey Swanson, and Clyde Johns. Probably more that I cannot remember at this time.

There is also an Independent Baptist church that dresses like the "Holiness" folks in our area.


Not to vent or rant, Wink but...I think it is wonderful whenever any Christian seeks to obey scriptural instruction regarding modesty and moderation of dress. I have absolutely no problem with any Christian holding to a conservative standard of personal appearance.

To me where the problem comes in is when such personal conviction are viewed as a universal law for Christians to follow, with those not sharing that conviction being viewed as unholy (and therefore unsaved, according to Holiness theology).
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Post sheepdogandy
Let us return to Doyle's question.

Is there a place for Classical Church of God folks in today's Church of God?

To be more than a living history lesson or exhibit in the corner at Camp Meeting.

Will Classical folks be given a seat at the table, where the decisions that affect the church as a whole are made?

If not, someone in authority should inform them.

JMO
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1/24/11 8:14 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Please define classical Pentecostal. (By the usual definition the CoG itself is in fact a classical Pentecostal denomination). Acts-perienced Poster
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1/24/11 8:18 pm


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Post ibelieve
I think the use of the term "classical" is a just a masked way of referring to those who have a certain set of convictions that dictate their mode of dress and appearance. Hey, DOC
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1/24/11 8:30 pm


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Post sheepdogandy
It was at one time it is now a Charismatic denomination.

Classical Pentecostals retain the doctrine and practice of the Pentecostal Movement of the twentieth century to varying degrees.

CP's emphasize salvation by Grace throught faith in Jesus Christ.
Separation from evil and the appearance of.
The Baptism in the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of tongues speech.
That faith in Christ and obedience to His Word extends to every issue of this life.
The Law of Love is the evidence of a mature Christian.

That's the Reader's Digest version from my perspective.
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Post ibelieve
The proplem is that we have not identified "CP" by that definition you just listed. Somehow, if you dont look the part, you are not cp. Hey, DOC
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1/24/11 8:43 pm


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Post sheepdogandy
That my friend is your opinion.

Seeing as how you do not profess to be one....... Very Happy
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1/24/11 8:45 pm


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Post ibelieve
Actually.... I do. Hey, DOC
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1/24/11 8:46 pm


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Post sheepdogandy
I stand corrected....... Embarassed
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1/24/11 8:48 pm


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Post FWIW Rafael D Martinez
Several years ago, my wife Joy and I were hosted by Pastor Andy's church in Summerville and held a weekend revival. Joy wore slacks and makeup. I had a mustache. We were interracially married. I was and still am a Yankee.

Andy and his church are a most conservative group. Women down to the little girls wore dresses or longsleeved blouses/skirts. Joy noted none of them wore makeup. Many men wore suits and I think a few didn't use ties. They sang from redback hymnals, worshipped God aloud in praise and tongues and clearly were old time Pentecostal (classical) Believers.

You can just see FAIL all over our efforts, can't you?

Not.

I'm happy to say that we were treated kindly, graciously and welcomed as joint laborers in the Lord quite well. It was the first time I ever got a chance to preach a sermon on Pentecost Sunday. The Spirit of the Lord was there and we all rejoiced in how God moved on lives there. There were great altar services in which people came forward and received from our ministry there. We were given access to their visiting evangelist quarters, were fed at Pastor's table, cut up and laughed with he and his wonderful family and generally enjoyed wonderful fellowship with everyone. Joy was even given gifts by sister Hutchins and she never forgot that.

For "holiness" people, they sure didn't seem like the puritanical prudes too many Charismatic COG folk like to paint them as .. We were blessed to have been there. For me, it was like coming home.
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Post Quiet Wyatt
If we can't agree on the definitions of terms, we can't have much of a meaningful conversation.

According to scholarly standards defining various denominations, classical Pentecostalism includes denominations such as the AoG, CoG, CoGoP, IPHC, 4SQ, etc., all of which affirm salvation, sanctification/holy living, healing, and baptism in the Spirit as an experience subsequent to regeneration evidenced by speaking in tongues. This fact is plainly evident to anyone interested in finding this out.

The definition of charismatic tends to be essentially centered around the gifts of the Spirit being active today for those who receive them.

Some classical Pentecostals are obviously more conservative in outward appearance than others.
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