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The problem is NOT centralized government...
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Post Re: The Irony of it All Bill Kinley
mytwocents wrote:
Most of these points were brought to light with the INJOY report. Yet, we refused to adjust or accept the recommendations. And once again I say, the enemy is us.



And the funniest part of all this is that we ignore what he said through the Injoy report but yet we quote verbatim the words of John Maxwell in every leadership training as if he was the 4th person of the Godhead. Cool Cool
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9/4/09 11:23 am


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Post How Do You Know The COG Is Growing? COGLite
I would love to see the source for our growth.

Do we actually have more people in our pews than a few years ago?
Have we actually increased the number of active congregations?
Is our growth overseas due to conversions or amalgamations?

I am not disputing that we are growing, I would just like to see what the real statistics are. Just by looking at several state news publications I cannot see evidence of growth.

I have read that other strong centralized government denominations are decreasing. Nazarenes, United Methodists, Catholics and the Episcopal Church are examples of negative growth.
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9/4/09 2:52 pm


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Post Thank You Marty Mark Hardgrove
Marty,

Your post was very good. Much of what followed in response represents a complete ignorance of Church of God Polity, disgruntled preachers, and naivete.
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9/5/09 2:27 pm


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Post Care to site your sources??? Dean Steenburgh
mytwocents:
Quote:
The AOG is stagnant; A few, and I emphasize few, independent churches are growing, but independents usually don't survive when the visionary founder retires or steps aside.

So, for all its faults (and it has many) the COG is seeing growth both in the US and abroad.


I have read just the opposite.
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9/5/09 2:46 pm


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Post sheepdogandy
Bro Mark, there is no Church of God polity.
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9/5/09 9:30 pm


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Post Re: The problem is NOT centralized government... bradfreeman
MartyBaker79 wrote:
Here's my thoughts today .... I don't think that the problem with the Church of God is centralized government. I realize that many guys on this board think so, but today I don't think that's the problem.

What's the problem? The inability to communicate a vision that will captivate the member's attention and unify the efforts of the movement.

No Vision = Stagnant growth + Poor Financial resources.

What's the solution? Raymond Culpepper and Mark Williams.

Seriously, Dr. Culpepper stepped into the office and called us to reach the lost. He gets it. It's about LOST people.

Remember ... it's vision that will motivate people to do the work and give the resources.

Communicate passionate vision for lost people and your church will grow.

-- Marty


You just ID'd the problem...Culpepper conveys a great vision and it doesn't get to the frontline churches. Centralized gov. is simply ineffective at getting that vision into the hearts of local pastors and churches.
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9/5/09 10:21 pm


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Post Re: The problem is NOT centralized government... MartyBaker79
[quote="bradfreeman"]
MartyBaker79 wrote:
Centralized gov. is simply ineffective at getting that vision into the hearts of local pastors and churches.


I don't think that Centralized Government is ineffective .... it maybe how we have used it. Think about it: Ronald Reagan proclaimed "It's morning in America" and his vision of less taxes and smaller government propelled this nation into one of the greatest growth periods in our history. He led a centralized government.

A centralized government is a great way to communicate vision... the challenge is that in the past, vision was not communicated in a way that compelled people to reach lost people.

Raymond Culpepper is attempting to restore the church. He is proclaiming a heart for the lost. Practically speaking ... Raymond sets the vision and then his team has to figure out how to communicate that vision to the masses. There comes a point where vision has to move from the general statement down to reality.

At Stevens Creek, we proclaim that lost people matter. We move that down to the people in the seats by encouraging them to write the names of their lost friends on the glass walls of our auditorium. We pray for them and they invite them. That is just one way to communicate the vision in practical terms. Another way is that we supply "invite cards" for people to give to their friends. Another thing is that we expect lost people to come.

Denominationally speaking, we must take Raymond's broad vision of the great commission and work it in the week-to-week ministries of the local church.

Just some thoughts.
Marty
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9/6/09 9:09 am


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Post Jason Isaacs
Quote:
I don't think the centralized government is the root of the problem, but it is a part of the problem. If we had a centralized government whose focus was the great commission and partnering and facilitating churches to reach the harvest, then most on the board would probably not have a problem with a central government.


These type of statements drive me crazy. Why do you need the Denomination to cast your vision for you (Which by the way that is the vision of our GO) It wouldn't matter if the vision of this denomination was to have clean carpet it does not effect the vision of my church 1 bit. Our denomination is way to large to be able to bring everyone to agreement. I am spending this week in Buenos Aires Argentina with pastors who are passionate about reaching a downtown city for Jesus, they barely can pronounce our GO's name.

Has the cloudy vision of our denomination been a problem for:
Marty Baker
Jerry Lawson
David Boggs
Loran Livingston
Bryan Cutshall

and many others who are reaching lost people on a smaller scale. Of course not these churches succeed because they have men who are relentless about the vision for their local church.

If your church isn't successful (define that how you want) it's not Raymond Culpepper's fault, it's your leadership.



Quote:
We have frustrated churches because they do not have the power to get rid of a nonproductive pastor nor the power to select one that they know is productive. They must take one that is already in the system.


While technically true and makes great banter on discussion boards, churches have the right to vote for a majority vote on who their pastor will be. Not removing one based on productivity is a different story, but it's pretty hard to get rid of non productive members to. The problem lies in the interview process but ALMOST ALL of the time the church gets the guy the majority voted for. If you do not believe that then we return to my previous thread that you think Overseers are crooked liars.

Only a fool of an Overseer puts a man in a church that the people did not vote for. There are situations where a church has voted down 6-10 names and the Overseer will appoint the highest vote getter but still those situations are few. This argument is stale crums.
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9/7/09 3:09 pm


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