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Church Hoppers review visits Cinci Churches (L)
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Post Re: Church Hoppers review visits to local COG (L) Rick D Sexton
The PH Bullet wrote:
Rick D Sexton wrote:
The PH Bullet wrote:
Quote:
The pastor who built the sanctuary pastored there for many years with no salary and when he left was only making 200.00 per week...I do know that many congregation do what the poster has suggested...it simply is not the case in this scenario!


Yeah, they owned him. Thats what I said.

Bullet


Brother PH, You say in another post that you're talking in general terms. Then you post, "Yeah, they owned him. That's what I said."? If it's not personal because you don't know the man, etc...then make your remarks germane to the thread and not personal about the congregation owning this man.

I have known the Cann Family for years. Godly people that I wouldn't hesitate to call upon them or their family members in a second.

Your remarks come across as cold, disrespectful, and insensitive toward this man's ministry. Is this your intention?

Let me paraphrase the Apostle Paul....BUILD UP OR SHUT UP!


no not my intention at all. Like I said, it was a general thing. I didn't know his name till you just told me. Good for them, sound like wonderful folk. How can I disrespect someone I've never even heard of? I feel for the man. It has nothing to do with his ministry. And maybe he begged them to build a house for him attached to the church. If that's the case then wonderful.


I am speaking very generally, and yes I'm speaking my mind just like you do when you tell me to shut up.

And you have a very poor paraphrase there Rick.

Does your congregation own you? Having been through an attempt to own me...I have said never again. I'm making a simple observation that the parsonage deal is in our day and age an attempt to own a pastor. A church that can't afford to pay a man enough salary to buy his own home either needs to shut down or let the man work and pastor so that he can provide for his own family. The parsonage is a dinosaur, and mostly functions today to allow a church to own their pastor.

I think a lot of you guys who are hollering so loud at me...you're owned.

Bullet


First of all, I was speaking in broad general terms (sound familiar PH? However, it seems you have taken it personally..lol) that if people can't build up the body of Christ, then they need to shut up.

Secondly, your statements in this thread almost sounds like that if a man lives in a parsonage, he's owned by a congregation. The same could be said about your statement. If a church PAYS you enough where you can afford your own home, you could be owned too.

I've done it both ways. I've had housing, and I've lived in parsonages. There's trade offs for both arguments, but to say that a man in owned if he lives in a parsonage, is a stretch.

A man could be owned if he has a housing allowance, or even take a salary, as far as that goes.

I'm sorry your experience wasn't a positive one. In fact, the bad taste that your experience left in your mouth is quite obvious when you write.

With that being said, the most painful, and agonizing time my wife and I ever had in the ministry was when we were drawing salary, benefits, AND had a housing allowance to buy a house. When we were there, we were the 14th pastor in 28 years, and they paid us enough to where we could choose where we wanted to live.

To say a man is owned by who owns the property he abides in is simply wrong.

Again, you mention your experience was a bad one. I'm sorry you felt owned. But that doesn't mean it's that way with every congregation.

Incidentally, I now live in a parsonage. It's a nice 4 bedroom, 3 full bath home that sits in a nice neighborhood. I feel less owned with this congregation than any where I've pastored.
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11/20/06 2:33 pm


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Post I thought about responding to their blog roughridercog
But I left the pearls that I cast before swine in my other suit.
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11/20/06 2:55 pm


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Post Re: Church Hoppers review visits to local COG (L) The PH Bullet
Rick D Sexton wrote:
The PH Bullet wrote:
Rick D Sexton wrote:
The PH Bullet wrote:
Quote:
The pastor who built the sanctuary pastored there for many years with no salary and when he left was only making 200.00 per week...I do know that many congregation do what the poster has suggested...it simply is not the case in this scenario!


Yeah, they owned him. Thats what I said.

Bullet


Brother PH, You say in another post that you're talking in general terms. Then you post, "Yeah, they owned him. That's what I said."? If it's not personal because you don't know the man, etc...then make your remarks germane to the thread and not personal about the congregation owning this man.

I have known the Cann Family for years. Godly people that I wouldn't hesitate to call upon them or their family members in a second.

Your remarks come across as cold, disrespectful, and insensitive toward this man's ministry. Is this your intention?

Let me paraphrase the Apostle Paul....BUILD UP OR SHUT UP!


no not my intention at all. Like I said, it was a general thing. I didn't know his name till you just told me. Good for them, sound like wonderful folk. How can I disrespect someone I've never even heard of? I feel for the man. It has nothing to do with his ministry. And maybe he begged them to build a house for him attached to the church. If that's the case then wonderful.


I am speaking very generally, and yes I'm speaking my mind just like you do when you tell me to shut up.

And you have a very poor paraphrase there Rick.

Does your congregation own you? Having been through an attempt to own me...I have said never again. I'm making a simple observation that the parsonage deal is in our day and age an attempt to own a pastor. A church that can't afford to pay a man enough salary to buy his own home either needs to shut down or let the man work and pastor so that he can provide for his own family. The parsonage is a dinosaur, and mostly functions today to allow a church to own their pastor.

I think a lot of you guys who are hollering so loud at me...you're owned.

Bullet


First of all, I was speaking in broad general terms (sound familiar PH? However, it seems you have taken it personally..lol) that if people can't build up the body of Christ, then they need to shut up.

Secondly, your statements in this thread almost sounds like that if a man lives in a parsonage, he's owned by a congregation. The same could be said about your statement. If a church PAYS you enough where you can afford your own home, you could be owned too.

I've done it both ways. I've had housing, and I've lived in parsonages. There's trade offs for both arguments, but to say that a man in owned if he lives in a parsonage, is a stretch.

A man could be owned if he has a housing allowance, or even take a salary, as far as that goes.

I'm sorry your experience wasn't a positive one. In fact, the bad taste that your experience left in your mouth is quite obvious when you write.

With that being said, the most painful, and agonizing time my wife and I ever had in the ministry was when we were drawing salary, benefits, AND had a housing allowance to buy a house. When we were there, we were the 14th pastor in 28 years, and they paid us enough to where we could choose where we wanted to live.

To say a man is owned by who owns the property he abides in is simply wrong.

Again, you mention your experience was a bad one. I'm sorry you felt owned. But that doesn't mean it's that way with every congregation.

Incidentally, I now live in a parsonage. It's a nice 4 bedroom, 3 full bath home that sits in a nice neighborhood. I feel less owned with this congregation than any where I've pastored.


I apologize to all you guys who live in parsonages. I realize it works for some. I didn't, but my church still wanted to own me. It is indeed a bad taste for me.

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11/20/06 3:38 pm


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Post Has anyone called this pastor... roughridercog
and let him know what has been posted about him and his church? I'd be interested in hearing what he thinks of the blog.
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11/20/06 6:57 pm


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Post Excellent idea Rough. sheepdogandy
I'll second that motion.
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11/20/06 7:56 pm


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Post Memory03
l am not impressed with these folks... Their critique of a CoG would be as weight bearing as a CoG lay person critiquing a Catholic Service... You should know about a place/church before offering criticism... bout like me critiquing the Masters Paintings of which l think are ugly junk... because l am ignorant of their intrinsic value...
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11/20/06 8:36 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
Memory03 wrote:
l am not impressed with these folks... Their critique of a CoG would be as weight bearing as a CoG lay person critiquing a Catholic Service... You should know about a place/church before offering criticism... bout like me critiquing the Masters Paintings of which l think are ugly junk... because l am ignorant of their intrinsic value...


Mem,

I have Catholic people critique my COG church every single week. In fact, at least half of my church has a Catholic background with many still praying the Rosary. The critique is not invalidated because their background is different. I would say it may be more valid minus the doctrinal concerns unless the doctrine is legitmately bad.

Family makes excuses for itself. Whenever our leadership critiques itself, there is always someone motivaed by love trying to cover and excuse the times we flop. But, the honest truth is that a flop is a flop. It happens. We have to acknowledge it, fix it, and move on into the harvest.
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11/20/06 9:11 pm


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Post TheoloJohn
Look folks, God uses different kinds of churches to get the mission accomplished. While the little church being critiqued obviously won't be reaching the upper class or even much of the middle class, by the same token a nicer, more "progressive," postmodern or mega church won't reach all kinds, either.

And about the poor-looking church, I've seen lots worse. Should we just close them down if they're not "hip" and "with it" like we think they should be? Who are we to condemn someone else's servant? I've known street preachers who were mighty men of God who didn't even have a congregation to support them and apparently all they did was make people mad, but nevertheless they were God's servant and I am not their boss.

The fact is, I've seen unbelievers (and sometimes even believers) mock and criticize the absolute best and brightest mega churches and mega preachers on TV. Some folks would complain if they were hung with a new rope.

The natural man does not receive the things of God, for they are spiritually discerned.

In the service where I was restored back to salvation after running from God for years, I was offended by the ignorance and lack of polish the preacher exhibited. I remember thinking to myself, "I'm not even saved, and I could preach better that this joker." But you know what? The Spirit of God used that simple, ignorant, country-as-could-be preacher to bring me to repentance and faith.

Even though I have the same tendency to criticize that most of us have, I'm always reminded of how God used a simple, uneducated, ignorant-sounding preacher to get a hold of me when I was a backslidden, cynical, mocking rebel who wanted nothing to do with churches or church people. I thank God nobody had been successful in polishin' up the ignorant country preacher who was preaching the night God restored me to salvation. He might've tried using enticing words of men's wisdom instead of the power of God, and where would I be now? God can use anybody He wants to.

John
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Last edited by TheoloJohn on 11/20/06 9:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post TheoloJohn
Quote:
Are we just upset that their first experience in a pentecostal worship service was weird?


I'm for one am not. The issue I have is with the idea that we somehow can learn from such criticism as this. The fact is, that little church probably would think it an honor and a sort of honor badge to be criticized like this. That little church and it's faithful pastor certainly aren't about to ever change, that much is certain. So what we have here is basically just an occasion to pick on this little church, which oddly enough seems to be happening a lot these days in my experience. It's in very poor taste for the "successful" to pick on these little churches as if they don't deserve to exist.
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11/20/06 9:49 pm


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Post TheoloJohn
Peter Zefo wrote:
Quote:
The issue I have is with the idea that we somehow can learn from such criticism as this. The fact is, that little church probably would think it an honor and a sort of honor badge to be criticized like this. That little church and it's faithful pastor certainly aren't about to ever change, that much is certain. So what we have here is basically just an occasion to pick on this little church, which oddly enough seems to be happening a lot these days in my experience. It's in very poor taste for the "successful" to pick on these little churches as if they don't deserve to exist.


How can YOU NOT learn from criticism such as this?


This is where we fundamentally disagree, Peter. I do not see such criticism as is being hurled at this little church as being valid at all. Who are you (or me) to judge another man's servant? (Rom. 14:4)

Quote:
Should this "faithful little church (by what standard!!!)


The clear implication of this arrogant sort of judgment is that this church is somehow not being faithful to God. How can you know this, without knowing the hearts and minds of these people? For all we know, they are doing the absolute best they can with what they have to reach their corner of the world. By the same measure, would you criticize the Apostle Paul because he didn't ever pastor a megachurch, and in fact had to be bivocational much of the time?

To his own Master each servant of the Lord must answer, not to me, not to you, nor any blogging critic.

Quote:
just stick their head in the sand and have the "us 4 no more" attitude?


Again, this is nothing more than further judgmentalism on your part towards this church, of which you really know very little. You certainly don't know enough about them to condemn them as having an "us 4 and no more" attitude.

Quote:
Maybe we should quit rewarding "faithfulness" (read: Good Ol' Boy Network) and start rewarding Kingdom Building results.


Implied in your remark is the idea that the pastor of this church is somehow being rewarded by being allowed to pastor this church, is that correct? I guess I'm a bit confused about what you're saying then, Peter. Since apparently in your view this church has no valid reason to exist and this pastor has no business being in the ministry, what skin is it off your nose to let this meaningless church continue to exist?

The fact is, neither you nor I can legitimately say that this little church isn't being faithful to God and building the Kingdom to the extent of their knowledge and ability.

John
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Post I ChurchHopped on TV last night RichardBane
and did not see one sermon that would convict me to repent and come to the Lord. Not one sermon to help me live for God once I came to the Lord. Not one sermon that dealt with being equipped to do my part in the harvest and try to get someone else saved.

My question is this!
What do most people in your church consider a good service and/or sermon?
1 - Content - IE. Manuscript, 3-point, teach-preach, let-er fly
2 - Delivery - IE. Loud & Fast, quiet deliberate, casual, high church
3 - Illustrations - IE. personal stories, daily headlines, tear jerkers
4 - Challenges - IE. altar calls, prayer lines, hand outs, home work
5 - What Next - IE. come back next service for same, apply what you learned at home and work, maybe next service will be better.
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11/21/06 2:17 pm


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Post I'd still be curious to know... roughridercog
what this pastor says about their critique. A positive critique can make you better and sharper, but as I read their blog, I think they just went there to find fault.
They would have found fault with Jesus on the sermon on the mount because he sat down to preach.
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Post Travis Johnson
From the ChurchHop Blog in response to this thread posted here at their request:
Quote:

Alright. As you can see, no church again this week. A lot has been going on behind the scenes of Church Hop, and that is what I would like to talk about today.

For better or for worse, this blog has recently gotten some attention from several groups and individuals. I'm not going to mention names or groups for a number of reasons, the most important reason being because I feel I need to respond to all of them at once.

I would like to start with some general defense of this blog. At this point I would like to state that I am speaking for MYSELF-- Bradley, my brother and co-blogger, doesn't even know I'm writing this right now, so leave him out of it.

1. I have done the best job I can to keep this blog open. Comments are enabled and I have responded to almost every one individually. My e-mail address is easily found on my profile, and I have responded to e-mails personally. I leave the URL at every church that I visit, so that I am not sneaking behind their backs and "picking on them"-- they have access to the blog immediately, and they are just as able to e-mail me and comment as anyone else.

2. I gain nothing from this blog itself. We don't advertise, we have no sponsors, no one is paying us in any way to do this project. What I gain from Church Hop is personal, which leads me to...

3. ...My journey. I am being criticized a lot for going into churches with no intention of finding God. That, dear readers, is your assumption. What "agnostic" means to different people varies greatly, but for me, personally, it boils down to a search. I accept that there might be a God. That's one of many options to me, and one that I feel is worth exploring.

I come from a small, close-minded town. I grew up without religion, and no one laid the options out for me. The people I knew who went to church "chose" that church because that's where they had been going for all of their lives. What I wanted for both myself and for my younger brother was a chance to get a feel for what different churches were like, first hand. I wanted him to make his decisions based on experience, not based on habit or discomfort with exploration. That's where this started-- a small town where you have to seek out diversity and new opinions.

This is my "church." My idea of church is visiting different ones, meeting different people, getting a look at how different people praise their different ideas of God (or gods or whatever they believe). It is no more ridiculous than your ideas, no matter what they are.

4. I have been as honest as I can be while still being diplomatic and open-minded. If at any point I have been critical of an aspect of a church, I have done my best to re-state that these are my opinions. I am entitled to them, just as you are entitled to have your opinions of this blog. I have been crystal clear that I am an uneducated church-goer, and I have nothing but first impressions to go by.

5. The rating at the beginning of each entry (which will be going away soon, as noted over a week ago) expresses Bradley and my comfort level with a church. Not how good a church is, not how right their ideas are, but how comfortable they made us feel while we were there. All churches are different but they do have one thing in common: we have to make the first step into their doors. I guess I can see how you might think this is "judgment," but to me it is putting a number on how I, as a person, felt in a church, based on a number of factors.

6. I have never asked a church to change, nor would I ever do that in the future. The only reason I have pointed out the blog to them is so that they don't feel I've been doing something secretive and back-handed. I never leave it as a "here's what you're doing wrong" hint. I am a firm believer in "to each his own."

7. As a rule, we only visit churches that say "Welcome" or have their service times listed on the marquee. Maybe they're assuming that it says "Welcome Christians" or "Welcome if you're already certain what/who God is," but that's not how everyone reads it. We all have to start somewhere, whether we're 15, 23, or 140 years old when we decide to make our major life decisions.


That's all I have time for right now. There will almost certainly be an "Explanations Part Two" when I get a little more time. For now, that should give you something to react to.

To the people who criticize my blog and/or me as a person: say what you will. That's the joy of the internet, to me. It's what I'm doing and I would be a hypocrite to ask that you only say nice things. But I also invite you to say them here, on the blog, so that I can respond to them and defend myself once in a while.

Also, I ask these same people to scroll back one entry to where I asked for feedback. If there is a way that you think we can make this blog more fair, more of an exploration for everyone, please let me know.
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11/21/06 4:36 pm


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Post Any Ohio posters who know this pastor and church? roughridercog
Why don't you call and see what he says about this blog? I'd have no trouble calling him, but I think something like this really needs to come from someone with whom the pastor is acquainted and trusts.

Let's hear from the pastor if possible.

Or perhaps Doyle can use his investigative reporter talents?

Just a suggestion.
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Post It looks like it pulled the blog entry about the COG roughridercog
I didn't see it on their blog.
They must have gotten tons of stuff from posters.
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Post churchhop
Rough, here is the post you are looking for:

http://churchhop.blogspot.com/2006_06_11_churchhop_archive.html

I did not take it down, nor do I plan to any time soon. Churches are listed in order that we visited them, and this church was toward the beginning.

Travis, thank you for posting my response here yesterday. If anyone has any questions, comments, etc I hope that you will send them through either the blog or my direct email address (ericaminton[at]gmail[dot]com). I specifically ask that because I will not be "lurking" and reading this thread much unless invited again (as I was the first time).

Thank you for expressing your opinions about Church Hop and inviting me to read them. I'm sorry my project has rubbed some of you the wrong way.

--Erica Minton
"The Church Hop Girl."
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11/22/06 12:56 pm


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Post The Little Fat Pig
I think encouraging an unbeliever to view the bile that gets posted on Actscelerate is likely to turn them away from Christ far faster than any old-fashioned, redneck, red-backed hymnal church. Acts-celerater
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11/22/06 1:48 pm


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Post TheoloJohn
Peter Zefo wrote:
Quote:
would you criticize the Apostle Paul because he didn't ever pastor a megachurch, and in fact had to be bivocational much of the time?


Nope, in fact I applaud his example and think everyone of us should quit taking a salary from the church and stop getting paid to be a Christian!


This is just plain ridiculous, Peter. The Bible is clear that the workman is worthy of his hire, and that they that preach the gospel should be supported by the church.

While some ministers may be merely a hireling, it does not follow that all are, nor that any are being "paid to be a Christian" as you say. Do they actually teach such nonsense at Lee or COGTS as you're spewing here?
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