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Church Hoppers review visits Cinci Churches (L)
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Post Re: Church Hoppers review visits to local COG (L) The PH Bullet
Travis Johnson wrote:
If you want to get a decent understanding of how unchurched people view church, you need to read some of these reviews. Unfortunately, the review of the COG is kind of brutal.

Church Hop Blog - Church Visit Reviews in Cincinnati


I was looking at the picture of that bizarre house literally built into the church. The correspondents surmise that it was built that way for tax purposes.

Nah. It was built that way so that they could literally own their pastor. Gotta keep an eye on them or they get out of hand. Guarantee you the church boss cruises by every single day to see if anything is out of line.

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11/18/06 8:54 am


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Post Travis Johnson
Here is another church review site. I also responded to some of you guys there. I think there is a bit of good-natured defensiveness in this thread. I addressed a bit of that there. This new review site covers the whole USA and includes The Moody Church and some other churches you would recognize.

Thanks to all for the thoughts. I think this is a positive discussion to have even though it is a bit painful to look at, especially in the areas we could all do better in.
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11/18/06 10:06 am


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Post Re: don't shoot the messenger! Travis Johnson
muricewatsonsfriend wrote:
thanks, travis, for helping know where to get info. about what people think. Hey, didn't Jesus do surveys? "who do men say that I am?"

Darius


Is this Darius?...as in Darius Walden?!
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11/18/06 10:10 am


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Post The evangelist sheepdogandy
challenged my congregation Thursday night.

To go to another church on some Sunday AM. (Not everyone at once)

He encouraged us to value what God had done for us.

Sometimes one doesn't know what one has until it's gone.

I said "AMEN!"
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11/18/06 10:26 am


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Post Perhaps a different perspective on the subject. 4thgenCOG
The church gathers to worship... and scatters to witness.

When we come together it should be about pleasing God alone, but when we leave the setting of corporate worship our focus should be on freely giving what we have freely received.
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11/18/06 10:17 pm


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Post Re: Church Hoppers review visits to local COG (L) wilburt
The PH Bullet wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:
If you want to get a decent understanding of how unchurched people view church, you need to read some of these reviews. Unfortunately, the review of the COG is kind of brutal.

Church Hop Blog - Church Visit Reviews in Cincinnati


I was looking at the picture of that bizarre house literally built into the church. The correspondents surmise that it was built that way for tax purposes.

Nah. It was built that way so that they could literally own their pastor. Gotta keep an eye on them or they get out of hand. Guarantee you the church boss cruises by every single day to see if anything is out of line.

Bullet


I have been to this church many times, preached there when it was a bit larger and personally know the pastor that built the sanctuary. It is not a church that I would want to pastor or probably even attend, our ministry styles and concepts are miles apart. With that said, you are extremely far off on your acessment of why this church was built. This church came from a small congregation in Newtown, OH, the church voted to buy this home and turn the garage into a sanctuary, once the deed was done, most of the congregation left. The pastor was a man in his mid to late fifities, a hard working man, strong in his beliefs in holiness, a loving hard working pastor...He was there ten or eleven years, during that time they added on to the garage and built what is now the sanctuary, had Sunday School in the basement and in their kitchen...when that pastor left the church averaged 35-50, he went on to be a staff pastor at Princeton Pike.

Again, I have no dog in this hunt and am quite assured that it wouldn't be the place I would want to be, but what I do know is that there were good people there with no desire to "own" their pastor, they just did what they could with what they had. The pastor who built the sanctuary pastored there for many years with no salary and when he left was only making 200.00 per week...I do know that many congregation do what the poster has suggested...it simply is not the case in this scenario!
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11/19/06 4:24 pm


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Post Re: Church Hoppers review visits to local COG (L) The PH Bullet
Quote:
The pastor who built the sanctuary pastored there for many years with no salary and when he left was only making 200.00 per week...I do know that many congregation do what the poster has suggested...it simply is not the case in this scenario!


Yeah, they owned him. Thats what I said.

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11/19/06 5:12 pm


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Post Re: You know vintagefaith77
sheepdogandy wrote:
I will gladly remain what I am.

Classical Pentecost is succeeding in my congregation.


I am totally confused because I didn't go to the General Assembly this year and hear all these wonderful sermons about how Pentecostals are better than everyone else. What exactly does "classic Pentecostal" mean? Penny marches/banjo's/red back hymnals?? If so, am as ANTI classic Pentecostal as you could possibly get! Does it mean that to be Pentecostal you have to be TOTALLY irrelevent to the world around you? Does being Pentecostal mean you have to look like a fruit from the 1950's? If that's your version of Pentecost, you can have it!

Now, if Pentecost means believing that the Holy Spirit can move in any way He wants, including convicting of sins, healing and the other BIBLICAL gifts of the Spirit, then I'm all for it. But, I have sat in TOO many so called "classical Pentecostal" churches and have wanted to vomit because they haven't changed in 50 years and they NEVER plan to because they think they have it nailed.
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11/19/06 6:24 pm


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Post Re: Perhaps a different perspective on the subject. stp89
4thgenCOG wrote:
The church gathers to worship... and scatters to witness.

When we come together it should be about pleasing God alone, but when we leave the setting of corporate worship our focus should be on freely giving what we have freely received.


I agree with that. The only problem is that the seeker-sensitive paradigm doesn't see church as a worship gathering. For most of them, it's the evangelistic "main event."

I really hate to fault other churches, especially when they obviously have a passion for lost souls, but to me, the writings of Paul seem to indicate that he was concerned about the "leaven" in the church (i.e. the situation at Corinth). To make the church a place where sinners feel comfortable seems foreign to the NT model. But I remain open to correction if someone can show me differently.

I'm not talking about being unfriendly to people, obviously that's unacceptable. Every church should be given to hospitality, but I don't think we should be overly concerned with the comfort of the unsaved. And yes, some churches could do with a real facelift and some modernization to be sure. If there are any cultural barriers to reaching the lost, then I don't have a problem removing them.
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11/19/06 9:03 pm


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Post God is blessing sheepdogandy
this Classical Pentecostal congregation.

We are growing AND singing out of the red back hymnal.

People are "getting saved".

I told my people tonight. It's not that you have to look like Grandma.

Just pray, fast and study your Bible like Grandma.

Just submit yourself to the Lord like Grandma.

Experience a relationship with God like Grandma.

I invite all of you naysayers to come and visit us.

THEN criticize all you want to.
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11/19/06 9:33 pm


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Post Re: Church Hoppers review visits to local COG (L) NPS39
The PH Bullet wrote:
Quote:
The pastor who built the sanctuary pastored there for many years with no salary and when he left was only making 200.00 per week...I do know that many congregation do what the poster has suggested...it simply is not the case in this scenario!


Yeah, they owned him. Thats what I said.

Bullet


As a member of this man's family, with an intimate knowledge of the sacrifices this family made I find your comments offensive. When I was a young preacher I felt much of the same way you do, I also encouraged this man to take a salary rather than live off of his retirement for two reasons: 1) They needed to pay him; 2) The next pastor would need to have an income, and they followed through with the suggestion. However, to imply that this man was owned by the congregation is to deny the sacrificial lifestyle that has paved the way for many pastors to have what they have today. There are many things about this church that I disagree with, it would not be my style of ministry, and I'm not sure that I would be comfortable to attend there...but what I do know is that one pastor dug it out of nothing and left it for the present pastor in good shape...not the ideal traditional setting for a church, but a nice piece of property in a beautiful location...and I for one do not appreciate your disrespect of that man...you are entitled to your opinion, and I have shared my thoughts and do not wish to pee on the wall with you...but your comments leave much to be desired!

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11/20/06 8:12 am


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Post Good Stuff bigdubbz
Travis this is great. I believe we would all do well to check this blog out if we are truly serious about reaching people who haven't been reached yet. Friendly Face
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11/20/06 10:37 am


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Post Re: Church Hoppers review visits to local COG (L) The PH Bullet
NPS39 wrote:
The PH Bullet wrote:
Quote:
The pastor who built the sanctuary pastored there for many years with no salary and when he left was only making 200.00 per week...I do know that many congregation do what the poster has suggested...it simply is not the case in this scenario!


Yeah, they owned him. Thats what I said.

Bullet


As a member of this man's family, with an intimate knowledge of the sacrifices this family made I find your comments offensive. When I was a young preacher I felt much of the same way you do, I also encouraged this man to take a salary rather than live off of his retirement for two reasons: 1) They needed to pay him; 2) The next pastor would need to have an income, and they followed through with the suggestion. However, to imply that this man was owned by the congregation is to deny the sacrificial lifestyle that has paved the way for many pastors to have what they have today. There are many things about this church that I disagree with, it would not be my style of ministry, and I'm not sure that I would be comfortable to attend there...but what I do know is that one pastor dug it out of nothing and left it for the present pastor in good shape...not the ideal traditional setting for a church, but a nice piece of property in a beautiful location...and I for one do not appreciate your disrespect of that man...you are entitled to your opinion, and I have shared my thoughts and do not wish to pee on the wall with you...but your comments leave much to be desired!

Neil Smith


how could I disrespect him when I don't even know his name? I'm talking in general and pushing buttons here. Good for him, good for you.
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11/20/06 10:51 am


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Post Re: Good Stuff Da Sheik
bigdubbz wrote:
Travis this is great. I believe we would all do well to check this blog out if we are truly serious about reaching people who haven't been reached yet.


See, this is what I don't understand. These are people who do not want to be reached. This is simply some self-serving project intended to poke fun.

phiunderwood wrote:
ldoyle, can you give this sheik a golden head-dress that would designate him as the chief of all clueless leaders who read and post on this board?


It's impossible to have intelligent discussion with those who insist on using ad-hom insults to prove a point.
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Post Re: Good Stuff The Little Fat Pig
[quote="Da Sheik"]See, this is what I don't understand. These are people who do not want to be reached. This is simply some self-serving project intended to poke fun.

Sheik, you are quite correct. One of the reviews on a site Travis linked to was extremely criticial of a church because they pray for Muslims to get saved. Why would an unbeliever attend a church, review it, and then criticize it because it holds to standard Christian beliefs?

If I visited a Catholic Church, a Mosque or a Sikh Temple I wouldn't agree with much of what was taught - but I wouldn't go posting my disagreement on a website because I expect Catholics to be Catholics, I expect Muslims to be Muslims, & I expect Sikhs to be Sikhs. Similarly, if I visited an atheist society I wouldn't criticize them because they say they don't believe in God - that's what you expect from athiests.

I can only see 2 reasons for these websites. One is that a bunch of agnostics or atheists are so dumb that they expect Christian Churches to conform to non-Christian standards & beliefs. The second reason would be that some agnostics or atheists have figured out that some Christians are so dumb as to jettison their standards & beliefs so as to attract a bunch of critical boneheads.

The Little Fat Pig is back!
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11/20/06 11:17 am


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Post Re: Church Hoppers review visits to local COG (L) Rick D Sexton
The PH Bullet wrote:
Quote:
The pastor who built the sanctuary pastored there for many years with no salary and when he left was only making 200.00 per week...I do know that many congregation do what the poster has suggested...it simply is not the case in this scenario!


Yeah, they owned him. Thats what I said.

Bullet


Brother PH, You say in another post that you're talking in general terms. Then you post, "Yeah, they owned him. That's what I said."? If it's not personal because you don't know the man, etc...then make your remarks germaine to the thread and not personal about the congregation owning this man.

I have known the Cann Family for years. Godly people that I wouldn't hesitate to call upon them or their family members in a second.

Your remarks come across as cold, disrespectful, and insensitive toward this man's ministry. Is this your intention?

Let me paraphrase the Apostle Paul....BUILD UP OR SHUT UP!
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11/20/06 11:42 am


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Post The original post on this thread was meaningless trae
Anyone with a basic understanding of marketing, surveying, statistics, or research... understands the lack of validity in drawing any conclusions from the couple visiting the church.

No one should take offense in the comments or obvservations of the couple quoted. It is meaningless dribble and totally invalid when applying the comments to any other church.
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Post Re: Good Stuff Travis Johnson
The Little Fat Pig wrote:

I can only see 2 reasons for these websites. One is that a bunch of agnostics or atheists are so dumb that they expect Christian Churches to conform to non-Christian standards & beliefs. The second reason would be that some agnostics or atheists have figured out that some Christians are so dumb as to jettison their standards & beliefs so as to attract a bunch of critical boneheads.


Little Fat Pig,

We could start a blog to review church reviewers, no?! Seriously, though...forget about their doctrinal critique or at least look past it for a moment. Once you do that, there is some value in being able to see from their perspective.

My church is full of cynics, cultural catholics, and bad boys who haven't given church the time of day until recently...some that attend barely give us the time of day. I want to reach those people. So, I need to discern their needs and understand the barriers that keep them out of church. We specifically want to reach men. A lot of men think that church is for women and pansies. So, we try to intentionally overcome those barriers.

There is some value in the review. That doesn't mean that they are pure in what they say or even right for that matter. But, there is certainly value.
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11/20/06 12:00 pm


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Post Re: Church Hoppers review visits to local COG (L) The PH Bullet
Rick D Sexton wrote:
The PH Bullet wrote:
Quote:
The pastor who built the sanctuary pastored there for many years with no salary and when he left was only making 200.00 per week...I do know that many congregation do what the poster has suggested...it simply is not the case in this scenario!


Yeah, they owned him. Thats what I said.

Bullet


Brother PH, You say in another post that you're talking in general terms. Then you post, "Yeah, they owned him. That's what I said."? If it's not personal because you don't know the man, etc...then make your remarks germaine to the thread and not personal about the congregation owning this man.

I have known the Cann Family for years. Godly people that I wouldn't hesitate to call upon them or their family members in a second.

Your remarks come across as cold, disrespectful, and insensitive toward this man's ministry. Is this your intention?

Let me paraphrase the Apostle Paul....BUILD UP OR SHUT UP!


no not my intention at all. Like I said, it was a general thing. I didn't know his name till you just told me. Good for them, sound like wonderful folk. How can I disrespect someone I've never even heard of? I feel for the man. It has nothing to do with his ministry. And maybe he begged them to build a house for him attached to the church. If thats the case then wonderful.


I am speaking very generally, and yes I'm speaking my mind just like you do when you tell me to shut up.

And you have a very poor paraphrase there Rick.

Does your congregation own you? Having been through an attempt to own me...I have said never again. I'm making a simple observation that the parsonage deal is in our day and age an attempt to own a pastor. A church that can't afford to pay a man enough salary to buy his own home either needs to shut down or let the man work and pastor so that he can provide for his own family. The parsonage is a dinosaur, and mostly functions today to allow a church to own their pastor.

I think a lot of you guys who are hollering so loud at me...you're owned.

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11/20/06 12:05 pm


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Post Good Stuff Wellda
The Little Fat Pig wrote:


I can only see 2 reasons for these websites. One is that a bunch of agnostics or atheists are so dumb that they expect Christian Churches to conform to non-Christian standards & beliefs. The second reason would be that some agnostics or atheists have figured out that some Christians are so dumb as to jettison their standards & beliefs so as to attract a bunch of critical boneheads.

The Little Fat Pig is back!



The Little Fat Pig is back and RIGHT ON with this one!!@
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