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Quiet Wyatt

Can Jesus Come Back at Any Moment? (A scriptural critique of the idea)

Quiet Wyatt · [Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **10/5/23 6:46 am**

Does the New Testament Teach an Any-Moment Rapture?

A Critique of Dr. Thomas Ice’s “Imminence and the Rapture”

In a brief paper entitled, “Imminence and the Rapture,” https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1022&context=pretrib_arch

Dr Thomas Ice asserts that the New Testament teaches an “any moment” rapture of the church. Ice cites several scriptures which he claims teach Christ’s return as imminent; that it could in fact occur at any time. I will quote in sequence from Ice’s paper, and will examine each scripture he cites to determine whether these verses do in fact teach an “any moment” rapture.

I encourage the reader to carefully think through these verses and points raised, and with the help of the Spirit of the Lord, come to a sound conclusion concerning what the plain teaching of Scripture is regarding this important subject.

I want to make plain at the outset that I have no personal opposition of course to the Lord Jesus coming back whenever the Father decides the time is right. I will be absolutely thrilled to hear the last Trump sound, no matter when. I personally was raised to believe in the pretrib theory, I would be absolutely overjoyed if the pretrib theory of the rapture were to come true, so it’s not as if I have any inherent bias against it. I unequivocally affirm all that the Scriptures affirm with regard to readiness for the return of Christ which is entire sanctification/blamelessness in Christ, such as 1 Thess 5:23-24, reveals, for example:

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass. NASB

I also fully affirm every word of the CoG Declaration of Faith regarding the end times (as well as everything else it states) of the denomination with which I am ordained, the Church of God, which says:

“We believe in the premillennial second coming of Jesus. First, to resurrect the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to Him in the air. Second, to reign on the earth a thousand years.

We believe in the bodily resurrection; eternal life for the righteous, and eternal punishment for the wicked.”

Many assume the Church of God affirms belief in the pretribulation rapture concept and its attendant concept of imminency, but the above statements mention neither the tribulation nor the any-moment or imminence concept of Christ’s return. The statement as it stands can in fact fit with the pretrib, midtrib, posttrib, and even the prewrath theories of the rapture, but does not require affirmation of anything other than the premillennial second coming of Christ, which was by far the majority view of the early church writers prior to Augustine’s novel concept of amillenialism, the idea that there will be no earthly millennium, but that the saints presently are reigning with Christ in Heaven and in the Church during this present age, and that the millennial reign concept is a metaphor.

That all being said, let’s examine Dr Ice’s paper and try to determine if he proves his case for an any-moment rapture from the Scriptures.

Ice wrote:

“WHY CHRIST CAN RETURN AT ANY MOMENT
Look at these verses stating that Christ could return at any moment, without warning. In their specific contexts, they instruct believers to wait and look for the Lord’s coming at any moment. Thus, these passages teach the doctrine of imminence.

• 1 Corinthians 1:7–“awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,””

Response: The Greek word here translated as “revelation” is apokalupsis, which means “unveiling, uncovering, manifestation, revealing.” This word refers to the public manifestation or revealing of Christ at His second coming, and is completely inconsistent with the idea of a secret rapture of the saints, which Ice is attempting to argue for in his paper. Christ himself says in Luke 17 that His revealing will be just as it was when God destroyed Sodom on the same day in which Lot escaped, and just like when the Great Flood came on the exact same day when Noah’s family escaped the judgment by being in the ark.

Luke 17:26 NASB “And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28“It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; 29but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30“It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

That is, on the same day as judgment came, the righteous were delivered safe, and it will be just the same on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

1 Cor 1:7 simply does not state or imply an “any moment” rapture. To the contrary, it affirms that believers are to eagerly await the revealing (public manifestation) of Jesus Christ, which Christ himself said would coincide with the destruction of the wicked on the day of His return.

Ice then asserts that the term “Maranatha” means Christ could return at any moment:

“• 1 Corinthians 16:22–“Maranatha.” “Mar” (“Lord”), “ana” (“our”), and “tha” (“come”), meaning “our Lord, come.” The Arabic greeting implies an eager expectation.”

Response: While it is true of course that the term means, “Our Lord, come,” this verse neither states nor necessarily implies an “any moment” return of Christ to earth. Of course all genuine Christians earnestly long for Christ to return, but to say that the phrase, “Our Lord, come,” requires belief in imminence is simply assuming what is not evident at all by the verse or its context. Those who hold to historic premillennialism (or in fact any other Christian eschatological view, for that matter) can just as surely cry, “Maranatha,” as those who hold to the pretribulational rapture theory Ice affirms. Now if Paul had been inspired to write something like, “Lord, take us out of this world right away,” that might indicate an “any moment” rapture, but that is simply not what the verse says.

Next, Ice cites the following:

“• Philippians 3:20–“For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;”

Response: The import of this verse is much like the previous one. Christians are indeed to eagerly await the Savior’s return from Heaven to Earth. This does not require an “any moment” rapture, however. One could hold to historic premillenialism or amillenialism and affirm the same thing, that they eagerly wait for the Lord Jesus to return to earth at the end of the age. Did not Jesus teach us to pray, “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven?” All true Christians affirm the Lord’s Prayer and its sentiments, regardless of any specific theory concerning the rapture.

The next verse cited by Ice is even less persuasive for the “any moment” concept.

“• Philippians 4:5–“The Lord is near.”

Response: Context appears to indicate that what Paul is referring to here is the nearness of the Lord’s presence and peace to the believer:

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! 5Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. 6Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.7And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4:4-7 NASB)

In any case, the verse in no way requires that one affirm an any-moment return of Christ as Ice claims.

Next, Ice cites:

“• 1 Thessalonians 1:10–“to wait for His Son from heaven,”

Response: This has the same basic idea as Philippians 3:20, which we address above. All the major Christian eschatological theories affirm that we wait for His Son from Heaven, without necessarily requiring an any-moment rapture to be true.

Ice then cites 1 Thessalonians 5:6:

“• 1 Thessalonians 5:6–“so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.”

Response: Ice assumes that this verse can only make sense if the rapture could happen at any moment. However, the immediate context actually teaches that faithful believers are “not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief,” which specifically rules out the idea that the rapture will overtake the faithful believer like a thief. Let’s look further at the context:

Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. (1 Thess. 5:1-8 NASB)

The apostle’s reference to being alert and sober specifically relates to spiritual sobriety and wakefulness, in stark contrast to those who are “of night” or “of darkness,” spiritually lost people who do not walk in the light of Christ, who get drunk and slumber on carelessly in sin. These are the kind of people upon whom the return of Christ will in fact come like a thief. Being spiritually alert and sober means staying watchful, aware, sensitive to the Spirit of Christ, walking in the blessed light of Christ in the midst of a generation that is marked by spiritual darkness and depravity. In context, 1 Thessalonians 5:6 does not teach or even imply an any-moment rapture. Instead, the passage teaches His return will overtake the unbelieving world unexpectedly, as a thief in the night, but that faithful believers who do not walk in darkness will not be overtaken in that way by the day of the Lord.

The next three verses Ice cites will be taken together, as they each refer to the same event, the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.

“• 1 Timothy 6:14–“that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,”
• Titus 2:13–“looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;”
• Hebrews 9:28–“so Christ . . . shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.”

Response: The first two verses cited above refer to the appearing (epiphaneia) of Christ, when He appears and is manifest to the whole world at His second advent. The word in no way implies a secret, imminent rapture as asserted by the pretribulation rapture doctrine. The third verse says He shall appear a second time, not a second time to the church prior to the tribulation and then a third time to the world after the tribulation, as the pretribulational theory might wish to argue. We of course agree, as Scripture clearly states, that Christ will appear a second time, at His second coming. The fact that He will appear a second time is not in dispute by anyone who takes the Bible seriously. However, that scriptural fact in no way requires that this appearing must necessarily be imminent or at any moment. The only return the Lord Jesus himself ever spoke of is specifically stated by Him as being “immediately after the tribulation of those days” in Matthew 24:29-31, and this by the way is the very same coming of which Christ says that no one knows the day nor the hour.

The next passage cited by Ice is perhaps the strongest verse for his case. One can easily see how someone might interpret these verses as teaching something like an imminent return of Christ:

“• James 5:7-9–“Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. . . . for the coming of the Lord is at hand. . . . behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.”

Response: “The coming of the Lord is at hand” and “the Judge is standing right at the door” certainly can be interpreted as if the writer had an any-moment return of Christ in mind. However, ‘impending’ might be the better way to understand this. Looking at these verses in context, without the ellipses, we find some very important information regarding what James was saying:

James 5:7-9 NASB Therefore be patient, brothers and sisters, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. 8You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. 9Do not complain, brothers and sisters, against one another, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. 10As an example, brothers and sisters, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord’s dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.

The attentive reader will note that James is telling people to be patient, to endure, like a farmer patiently waits for the harvest. A farmer of course does not plant seed with the idea of an any-moment harvest; he knows it will take time, the early and latter seasons of rain, sunlight and patience to see the harvest. Next he gives the example of the prophets of the Lord, who leave us an example of suffering and patience. Finally, James gives us the example of the patient endurance of Job through his hardships and trials. If anything has been abundantly proven through history, it is that believers must be patient as we await the coming of the Lord, not anxious, but patient as we endure whatever trials and tests may come our way.

Moreover, Jesus himself said He is coming “soon,” and the New Testament writers say things very much like this fairly regularly. For instance, 1 John 2:18 says, “Children, it is the last hour…” and 1 Peter 4:7 says, “The end of all things is at hand…” We must keep in mind that in the minds of the inspired writers of the New Testament, the last days were already upon them. Hebrews 1:2 says that in these last days God has spoken to us through His Son. Peter said in Acts 2 that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit believers were experiencing on that day was a fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy of God pouring out His Spirit “in the last days.” Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10:11 that the ends of the ages had come upon believers in his day. It has been “the last hour” and “the last days” for nearly 2000 years, scripturally speaking.

The New Testament affirms that the last days began with the first advent of Christ, and will continue until His second coming, so it should not surprise us when James affirms this by saying “the coming of the Lord is at hand.” Such a statement no more requires belief in an any-moment return of Christ than the fact that Hebrews 10:37 says, “For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay” requires belief in an any-moment return of Christ.

Clearly, Jesus’ idea of “soon” and “a little while” is different from ours. Indeed, 2 Peter 3 says a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day in God’s sight, and further reveals that God is giving people more time to repent, not being willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Next, Ice quotes the following verse:

“• 1 Peter 1:13 –“fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.”

Response: As we noted above, the revelation/revealing of Jesus Christ is a public manifestation to the world at His second advent, and can in no way be rightly construed as a secret rapture which could happen at any moment.

Ice then cites Jude 21 as requiring an any-moment rapture:

“• Jude 21–“waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.”

Response: It is not clear just how Ice gets the idea of imminence out of the above verse. Perhaps the word “anxiously” is where he thinks it must be. Jude is here exhorting believers to keep themselves in the love of God, as they look forward to the mercy of our Lord Jesus unto eternal life. This verse could simply be referring to the aspect of eternal life which believers enter into upon the death of their bodies, or it could also refer to the resurrected state which believers will receive when Christ returns. It does not require an any-moment rapture, however. As we mentioned above, all the New Testament writers considered themselves in the last days back then, and yet here we are nearly 2000 years later still patiently awaiting the return of Christ. His return quite obviously was not actually imminent in their lifetime, even if they might have thought He would come back to earth bodily in their day.

What’s more, Jesus himself said in Matthew 24 that His disciples would be hated of all nations for His name’s sake, that the gospel of the kingdom would be preached for a witness into all nations (ethnic groups) and then shall the end come, and that His disciples would be witnesses unto Him to the uttermost parts of the earth (see Acts 1:8). Even today, all the ethnic groups of the world have yet to be reached with the gospel. According to Jesus’ own words in Matthew 24, where he talks about his return, he lists several things that must happen before He comes again, including the evangelization of every tribe on earth, so Jesus himself clearly did not affirm an any-moment return.

The Book of Revelation chapter 7 verse 9 reveals that before the throne of the Lamb one day there will be people from every nation, tribe, people, and language. This obviously can not take place before all tribes have been evangelized, the Great Commission being fulfilled by the church.

Jesus even said that Peter would grow old, a thing logically impossible if Jesus could have come back before Peter grew old. This rules out entirely the possibility of an any-moment return of Christ at any point in time before Peter grew old, during which time much of the New Testament was still being written. If imminency was not true when the New Testament was being written, imminency never has been true and is not true now, at least not until all the signs Jesus prophesied in Matt 24 come true, which must take place before His coming or else He falsely prophesied.

Ice then cites several verses from Revelation, saying these also require that Christ’s coming be imminent, or coming at any moment:

• Revelation 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20–“‘I am coming quickly!’” This means that Christ could come at any moment, quickly without warning.

• Revelation 22:17, 20–“And the Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come.’”
“He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.””

Ice concludes by saying that, “It is significant that all of the above passages relate to the rapture and speak of the Lord's coming as something that could occur at any-moment, that it is imminent. These passages could only be true if the New Testament is teaching an imminent return.”

Response: This is simply assuming that which needs to be proven and which has clearly not been proven at all by Ice on a plain reading of the verses he cites; namely, that these passages teach any any-moment return of Christ. We have seen that none of the verses Ice cites requires, much less, proves, what Ice asserts, and these glorious verses from Revelation are no different in substance from the other passages we have dealt with above which speak of Christ’s coming as “at hand” or “near” or “in a little while.” Such expressions reveal the inspired New Testament writers’ apocalyptic mindset concerning the last days, the ends of the ages being upon them even then, and in any case do not require that we affirm an any-moment return of Christ, either as believed by the New Testament writers or as being a necessary or warranted Christian belief today.

In addition, the word translated as “quickly” here can also be translated “speedily” or “without delay.” That is, when Christ does return, it will be without delay and quickly. Indeed, Jesus himself said of His return in Matthew 24:27, “For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.” There are hardly any things in our experience that are more sudden, quick, bright and absolutely unhidden as a flash of lightning.

In his second letter to the Thessalonian Christians, Paul the Apostle specified precisely when believers will experience relief or rest from all their afflictions:

2 Thess 1:4 therefore we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. NASB

In verse 7 he states that the persecuted Thessalonian believers would be given relief when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Verse 9 says this will be when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day. This is entirely consistent with what Jesus himself says in Matthew 24, when He directly states that His return and the gathering of the faithful by the angels will occur immediately after the tribulation of those days, and is completely incompatible with the pretribulational rapture theory. If pretrib were true, Paul the Apostle would have said something like, "God will give you relief from your afflictions before the coming great tribulation by rapturing you out of the world, after which seven years later He will be revealed from Heaven in flaming fire, executing judgment upon the ungodly." But he didn’t say that. He said both the rest for the saints and the judgement of the unbelieving world would happen on the same day.

The inspired Apostle Paul also states plainly in Titus 2 that our blessed hope is the glorious APPEARING of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Christ's second coming to earth, when He will appear in glory to all, is the Christian's blessed hope:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously, and in a godly manner in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, eager for good deeds. NASB

Aaron Scott

I am not a pre-tribber, but, yes, Jesus could return at any moment....

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **10/5/23 11:42 am**

Matthew 24:22-24 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

To "shorten" those days implies that the original schedule was different.

Consider that God could have scheduled 10 years...but for the elect's sake, it is shortened. How short? We don't know. Could be all but 30 seconds of it...or whatever.

Romans 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Again, like Quiet Wyatt, I do not adhere to a rapture theory. But I also believe that we must never be fully complacent about the coming of the Lord. As Ray H. Hughes preached, "Jesus could come tonight!"

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **10/5/23 2:35 pm**

If Jesus came back tonight, He would be a false prophet.

In Matthew 24, Jesus said the gospel of the kingdom would be preached for a witness unto all nations and THEN shall the end come and that his disciples would be hated by ALL nations for His name’s sake.

In Matthew 28, He told His disciples to go into all the world and make disciples of ALL nations.

He prophesied that his disciples would be witnesses unto Him to the uttermost parts of the earth before the kingdom would be restored to Israel in Acts 1:9. Hasn’t happened yet. Over 40% of the current world population lives in a country where there is little or no gospel witness.

He revealed to John in Revelation 7 an innumerable multitude worshipping around the throne of God and the Lamb from EVERY nation, kindred, tribe and tongue, which directly implies that the Great Commission must be completed before His return can occur.

Every one of the above prophecies would be undeniably FALSIFIED if in fact He were to return today or tonight or at any other time prior to these prophecies of the redeemed saints from every nation, kindred, tribe and tongue being gathered in through the preaching of the gospel.

Aaron Scott

Quiet Wyatt

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **10/6/23 12:47 pm**

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **10/6/23 3:55 pm**

Forty percent of the world’s population lives in a country where there is little or no gospel witness at all. So yes, there definitely are nations in this world who haven’t heard the gospel. No one but you said anything about every last person having heard.

Aaron Scott

Quiet Wyatt...my claim is that every nation HAS heard.

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **10/6/23 5:16 pm**

If in 2000 years--with Paul covering so much of Asia Minor and people like Thomas supposedly going to India--we haven't reached every nation, I'd be very surprised.

Then there are people like Phillip, who apparently reached Ethiopia by way of the Queen's treasurer. If it question was whether every APOSTLE reached the world, that's a different matter. But if someone preached in XYZ, someone got saved and carried it to QUW...and then someone from there.... You get the idea.

Notice that when Peter spoke of the coming of the Lord, he said this:

2 Peter 3:4-6 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Peter could have easily said, "Well, we've not yet reached all nations yet." But he didn't. Instead he says this in:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

That is, it's not the reaching of the nations that is holding things up; it's the long-suffereing of God, not willing that any should perish.

Quiet Wyatt

Quiet Wyatt · [Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **10/7/23 8:02 am**

And the claim that every nation (people group, tribe) is patently false if one takes just a little time to research missions stats.

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **10/7/23 8:13 am**

https://globalfrontiermissions.org/gfm-101-missions-course/the-unreached-peoples-and-their-role-in-the-great-commission/

Quiet Wyatt

From Church of God World Missions…

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **10/7/23 8:17 am**

“Africa harbours the largest number of unreached people groups : 989. An estimated of 26.7% of the population in Africa is unreached. The Church of God in Africa focuses on some unreached people groups in Africa, as the Lord leads. In the Sahel Zone, that stretches from the Atlantic to the Nile, dividing the Sahara itself from the forested regions to the south with a very different culture, we have 592 unreached people groups alone. Many in Africa have not yet heard the gospel of our Lord JESUS CHRIST.

Our vision is to see Christ reigning in lives in Africa, bringing a Biblical spiritual transformation in Africa through our work among the unreached people groups.”

https://www.cogwmafrica.com/unreached-people-groups.html

Quiet Wyatt

From the Intl Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention…

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **10/7/23 8:47 am**

https://www.peoplegroups.org/

Aaron Scott

Re: From Church of God World Missions…

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **10/7/23 3:33 pm**

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **10/7/23 11:23 pm**

These unreached tribes (biblically, nations) have never been reached by anyone with the gospel before.

Nature Boy Florida

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16619 **10/9/23 6:03 am**

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **10/9/23 8:05 am**

I have cited several missions organizations, including COGWM. I make no claim to any knowledge beyond what anyone can know if they are interested.

Our general overseer has been strongly emphasizing the Finish Commitment for several years now. Someone needs to tell him it’s already been completed and there’s no need to keep spending time, effort and money trying to reach the unreached, for all have been reached already.

Aaron Scott

Quiet Wyatt...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **10/9/23 8:16 am**

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **10/9/23 9:36 am**

I was replying to NBF.

Even still, your claim, that unreached people groups don’t exist, and that in fact these groups all have had sufficient witness of the gospel to fulfill the Great Commission, but have simply rejected it, is demonstrably false. Missiologists, who make it their life’s work to identify unreached tribes continue to find groups who have had no contact with any Christians in recorded history, many of which are illiterate, and so could not possibly read a copy of the Scriptures or even a gospel tract, either.

Rev. 7 says that there will be worshippers around God’s throne from every nation, kindred, tribe and tongue. That cannot happen until every nation, kindred, tribe and tongue has been reached.

Aaron Scott

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **10/9/23 11:29 am**

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **10/9/23 1:26 pm**

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to ALL the nations, and then the end will come.

Rev. 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and [all] tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches [were] in their hands; 10and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

The above verses have to mean something. Jesus Himself gave the condition before His return as being the gospel having been preached for a witness to all nations. The same Jesus inspired the Book of Revelation, in which He indicates that some (I suppose at least one) from every nation would be around the throne of God and the Lamb.

Before He went away, he said plainly to them:

Matt. 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the END of the age."

Biblically, nations are not modern nation-states, but ethnic groups.

It’s really not complicated. My guess is you are so set in your mind that Jesus could come at any moment (which actually is nowhere taught in Scripture), that you cannot accept the Lord’s own words regarding the completion of the Great Commission prior to His return.

Da Sheik

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1860 **10/9/23 4:35 pm**

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **10/9/23 5:41 pm**

I was pretrib all my life until I actually started studying the issue in earnest. I had no interest in changing my view at the time, but scholarship changed my mind. There is no separation of the rapture and second coming in the NT.

I used to read into the 144,000 the dispensationalist idea God had to complete the Great Commission through the use of a group other than the ones He gave the commission to—disciples of Christ. With dispensationalism, the church age ends with abject failure of the disciples to complete the Great Commission, even though Jesus said He would be with them always, even unto the end of the age, as He commissioned them to make disciples of ALL nations.