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 Are the people in heaven part of the church in Revelation? |
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I noticed that 'church' is not used in Revelation after chapter 3 to refer to the saints in heaven.
Does that mean that saints in heaven are not a part of the church?
Would that be a good, sound logical conclusion? |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
9/25/23 10:37 am
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Cojak |
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Da Sheik |
| The Church will not go through the wrath of God. That’s why there is a conspicuous omission of the word ekklesia after chapter 3. There will be many saved during that time period, but they are not part of the ekklesia. Christians that don’t understand the distinction between Israel and the Church will be forever confused on this issue. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
9/26/23 6:52 pm
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Aaron Scott |
The interpretation of Revelation is fraught with irresponsibility. Consider this, where did Jesus disappear to in Revelation? From chapter 2 to chapter 12, the Name of Jesus is not even mentioned. What does this mean?
NOTHING. But someone could make an issue of it to weakminded Chrstians.
(NOTE: Jesus is clearly referred to by other names in those chapters.)
The whole "the church is not mentioned" means...NOTHING. What would mean something? If the Bible actually said that "the church will be raptured to heaven during this time frame."
In my mind, it is a form of click-bait. It draws people in who cannot distinguish between what is an attempt to ring bells...and valid scholarship.
If we are here during the tribulation (since I don't know how the devil will wear out the saints otherwise), we will STILL be kept by God's big hand. We may suffer--we're no better than those who came before us. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
9/27/23 12:20 pm
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Cojak |
I appreciate those last two comments a lot. i for one, get VERY confused by ministers with different approaches and very strong statements "I am right and it could be no other way."
To be honest in my mind more good Christians are confused by teachings on Revelations. Don't take me wrong, it is not a healthy book for me to dwell on, I do not have that much memory to follow many thoughts.
I think it is great for ministers to take it apart verse by verse and delve into it. but your average Christian follower leaves more confused when the waters get deep, some of us even get drowned, or feel like it.
I say again, I really do get some insight here and enjoy reading the responses.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24278
9/27/23 6:34 pm
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Da Sheik |
| The book of Revelation takes a decided Jewish turn after chapter 3. The idioms and symbolism are very reminiscent of Old Testament imagery. Aaron rightly pointed out that “Jesus” is not the primary title of Messiah after chapter 3. He is referred to as “The Lamb” primarily afterwards. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
9/27/23 9:40 pm
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| Da Sheik wrote: | | The Church will not go through the wrath of God. That’s why there is a conspicuous omission of the word ekklesia after chapter 3. There will be many saved during that time period, but they are not part of the ekklesia. Christians that don’t understand the distinction between Israel and the Church will be forever confused on this issue. |
After Revelation chapter 3, the word 'church' is not used to refer to the saints in heaven. So isn't that 'proof' that the church is not in heaven at that time?
Tribulation and wrath are not the same thing. Pretribbers use a verse from I Thessalonians 5 that says ye are not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. They argue that since Christians are not under wrath, they won't go through the great tribulation. The implication of that argument is that going through the great tribulation indicates that they would be under wrath.
So that would imply that saints that go through the tribulation are under wrath. So would you say that the tribulational saints are under God's wrath, and do not obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ? Their robes are white, washed in the blood of the Lamb in the vision in Revelation.
Why would God be angry at the tribulational saints?
Tribulation and wrath do not mean the same thing. We don't use the word 'wrath' much, and I think pre-tribbers get a lot of followers because some people do not look up wrath in the dictionary. It's kind of like how some people believe that blaspheming the Holy Spirit means to die without believing in Jesus. "Blaspheme" is an obscure word and most people do not bother to look it up in the dictionary.
The Greek word 'orge', translated 'wrath' is translated to refer to settled anger. Going through tribulation and being wrath are not the same thing.
In II Thessalonians 1, the church is here when Jesus is revealed from heaven, and gives the church rest from those causing it _tribulation_, when He comes to be glorified in the saints and to execute wrath on them that know not God who believe not the gospel. That describes one coming. Where is the evidence for the extra return of Christ?
According to I Thessalonians 4, the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture occur at Lord's coming. According to II Thessalonians 2:8, the destruction of the lawles one happens at the coming of the Lord. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
9/29/23 4:16 pm
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Da Sheik |
Link, do you believe the Old Testament saints are part of the Church? That would be difficult to defend, since the Church was a future entity during Christ's earthly ministry.
Mat 16:18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. (NASB)
Jesus made a distinction between John the Baptist and the Church.
Mat 11:11 "Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (NASB)
What mid and post-tribbers always do is confuse the Church with Israel and with the Tribulation saints. Not all "saints" are church saints. There will be a multitude saving during the tribulation that no man can number according to Revelation 7:9. John marveled when he saw them and wondered where they came from. The angel explains that these were saved during the Tribulation. They are not church saints, but they are what we would call Tribulation saints. Not all saints are created equal. Are they all saved? Yes. Are they all members of the Church which began on Pentecost? No! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
9/30/23 7:46 am
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Da Sheik |
Mid and Post-Tribbers are awfully confused about Paul's 2nd letter to the Thessalonians. Have you ever taken the time to study Paul's letters in regard to antichrist? If you'll do some homework, you'll see that Paul never warns the church about how to prepare for the Tribulation or avoid the mark of the beast. He always has the Church looking for Jesus Christ, not antichrist!!
Second Thessalonians was written in response to a false prophecy/forged letter in Paul's name. When you understand that, the rest will become crystal clear. They were shaken because someone told them they were in the Tribulation. If Paul had taught them they were going to go through it (The Tribulation), they wouldn't have been shaken.
He then goes on to tell them that something/someone is restraining the antichrist from being revealed. Then, and only then, will the antichrist be revealed and start his program of terror. Stop looking for the man of sin and start looking up for the blessed hope!  |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
9/30/23 7:53 am
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| 2 Thess 1:7 pinpoints when rest/relief will come for believers… |
Quiet Wyatt |
2 Thess 1:6 (NASB) For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed.
From this it is quite apparent that the day He comes to be glorified among His saints and marveled at among all who have believed is the same day that He will be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution upon unbelievers. No supposed “two-stage” second coming divided by the tribulation period is possible on a plain reading of this passage. This is in perfect harmony with what the Lord Jesus himself said about the gathering together of the saints immediately after the tribulation of those days, when He returns to earth to judge the wicked. This is also in perfect harmony with all that the Bible says in every instance concerning the coming of Christ to establish His kingdom on the earth.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 9/30/23 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12798
9/30/23 10:37 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
Titus 2:11For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. NIV
The blessed hope is the glorious appearing (manifestation, display) of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, not a secret rapture seen only by the saints seven years before His public manifestation/appearance in glory. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12798
9/30/23 10:46 am
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Da Sheik |
The Rapture is an imminent event. Any view other than pretrib violates the doctrine of imminence. If post-Trib is true, Christ is always at least 7 years from coming. If mid-Trib is true, He’s always 3.5 years away from coming. If either of those views were correct (and they’re not)- you could calculate the precise moment when Christ would come. It’s the most time-documented period in the entire Bible.
Your failure to distinguish between Israel and the Church is crippling your eschatology. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
9/30/23 11:49 am
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| It isn’t imminent yet |
Quiet Wyatt |
Matthew 24:32ff indicate that His return will indeed be imminent when all the signs He predicted in the earlier part of the chapter would be fulfilled.
When over 40% of the world’s population lives in a country or region where there is very little or no gospel witness available to them, perhaps the biggest sign Jesus predicted has obviously not yet happened: The gospel of the kingdom being preached for a witness to all nations (people groups) Matt24:14. Just a few verses earlier, Jesus said that His disciples would be hated among all nations for His name’s sake, and of course, His Great Commission, given to His disciples was to go and make disciples of all nations. In Acts 1, Jesus told His disciples were to be witnesses unto Him to the uttermost parts of the earth. Still hasn’t happened yet, but desperately needs to.
We have much work to do before He can return. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12798
9/30/23 12:46 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Could Jesus return at any moment?
The New Testament is clear in saying that believers should be looking for Christ’s return. The inspired writers of the New Testament all emphasize the idea that believers should live holy, ready and earnestly watching for Christ’s return. Paul the Apostle, near the end of his earthly life, said, “Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.” (2 Timothy 4:8 NIV). The Greek word translated here, epiphaneia, does not refer to a secret, “any moment” rapture, however, but instead means “appearing, manifestation, glorious display.” This refers to the glorious appearing of Jesus to all the world which will occur when He returns to rule the world and judge the wicked. Paul says the same thing in every case in which he encourages believers to be looking ahead to Christ’s return. It is a public manifestation of Jesus Christ himself that is our blessed hope. Paul uses the same concept in one of the most well-known passages referring to Christ’s return:
Titus 2:13 (NIV) While we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
Some teach that Christ’s return is imminent, meaning He could come “at any moment,” and that this has been the case since the New Testament period itself. They base this idea on the many warnings in the New Testament to “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.” (Matthew 24:42 NASB). While readiness, watchfulness, and holiness of heart and life are indeed emphasized by our Lord himself concerning His return, He also mentioned some specific things that must happen prior to His glorious return. If the New Testament teaches an “any moment” return of Christ to earth, it was just as true in the days in which the New Testament was written as it would be at any time since.
In Matthew 24, the Lord Jesus stated several things which must occur prior to His return. First, He said that the Temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed. This occurred historically in the year 70 AD, within one generation of Christ saying this would happen. He then goes on to mention other things that must happen prior to His glorious return, including false Messiahs coming, wars and rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes in various places, which He describes as “the beginning of birth pains;” that is, these signs that must happen prior to His coming are analogous to the signs which always must precede childbirth. He goes on to say to His disciples that they will be hated by all nations because of His name. From this, one can only logically conclude that the Christian faith had to spread into all nations before all nations could hate the disciples. Indeed, Christ says in Matthew 24:14 that “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and THEN the end will come.”
Jesus Christ, the absolutely perfect revealer of truth, could not contradict himself. He simply could not have come before the gospel had been spread into all nations, and before all nations would come to hate His disciples. Even in our day, experts in world missions say that we have yet to reach every people group (which is what a nation is biblically) in the world with the gospel, though we are well on our way to reaching the world for Christ.
If it is true, as we have seen above, that Christ could not have come back “at any moment” before the gospel had gone out into all the world, it then necessarily follows that New Testament does not in fact teach an “any moment” rapture of the church from the earth. And if it was not true in the first century, it cannot be true in the 21st century. To be sure, we are to obey the scriptures which command us to be ready for His return, but the New Testament teaching is to be ever-ready by living a holy life, whether we live or die before He comes, not to expect an “any moment” rapture as such. We are to look for His glorious appearing, which will bring an end to this present age, which will usher in the fullness of the kingdom.
How are Christians to live in this present age, then? Live 100% for Jesus Christ every day, longing and looking for His return, with His perfect, holy love ruling our hearts in such a way that we will have “confidence and not be ashamed before Him at his appearing” as 1 John 2:28 says. And remember, it is His glorious appearing which believers are to look forward to, not to some supposedly secret rapture several years prior to His second coming. The only rapture Jesus ever spoke of is the gathering together of the elect (the holy people of God) immediately after the tribulation, upon His return, which will be like lightning flashing from the east to the west, not a secret rapture but an open revelation of His glory to the entire world. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12798
9/30/23 12:50 pm
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Da Sheik |
| The Gospel will continue to be preached during the Tribulation. But it won’t be by the Church. It will be by 144,000 Jews, the Two Witnesses, and an Angel (Revelation 14:6). They will finish what’s left undone with the Rapture of the Church. If the church is on earth, why would there be a need for these extra “evangelists”? The Two witnesses sound a lot like Old Testament prophets. When was the last time you called fire from Heaven Wyatt? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
9/30/23 12:59 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Jesus said to His disciples that YE shall be hated of all nations for My name’s sake, and gave the Great Commission to the same disciples to go into all nations, adding in Acts 1 that they would receive power to be His witnesses unto the uttermost parts of the earth. His disciples are the only ones given this commission, along with the promise that He would be with them and us even to the end of the age.
The idea that the 144,000 in Revelation are messianic Jewish witnesses, or that the Two Witnesses would complete the Great Commission the Church has supposedly failed to complete, while certainly quite a novel interpretation, in no way overrules what Jesus plainly said to His disciples—that THEY would be hated among all nations for His name’s sake, and that THEY would be His witnesses unto the uttermost parts of the earth. Dispensationalism makes Jesus/God out to be a liar, saying the disciples will be witnesses unto the uttermost parts of the earth, hated by ALL nations for his name’s sake, and that the Great Commission thrust would continue by His disciples unto the end of the age, when in reality according to dispensationalism God has to revert to the Old Covenant in order to complete the New Covenant divine promises. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12798
9/30/23 2:02 pm
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Da Sheik |
“For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.””
Romans 11:25-27 NASB1995
This is where you need to spend some time in prayerful thought. In Paul’s greatest theological treatise (Romans), he explains the progression of eschatology. There will come a point when God’s plan will shift from the Gentiles (the Church Age), to Israel. Paul doesn’t want you to be uninformed of this mystery. But in insisting that the Church is “Israel”, you are uninformed. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
9/30/23 9:18 pm
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| Da Sheik wrote: | | The Rapture is an imminent event. Any view other than pretrib violates the doctrine of imminence. If post-Trib is true, Christ is always at least 7 years from coming. |
Doctrine of imminence? How about we talk about specifics about what the Bible teaches. Your other comment doesn't make sense considering what Matthew 24 actually says.
21 For then shall be great tribulation....
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29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
So actually read the words in the passage. No man knows the day or the hour of the coming of the Son of man which happens AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
If the pre-trib rapture is true, just count down seven years from the rapture, and there you have it. Men can know the day and the hour.
I don't see how anyone can view the pretrib rapture as anything but nonsense. Where in the Bible do you see a shred of evidence for it?
I Thessalonians 4 sets the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the coming of the Lord. The 'first resurrection' in at the end of the book of Revelation in chapter 20, not way up in chapters 3 or 4.
Again, II Thessalonians 2:8 sets the destruction of the lawless one at the coming of the Lord. In Revelation, the man of sin is put in the lake of faire in chapter 19, in that same passage that goes on into chapter 20. It's at the end of the book, after those chapters about the tribulation, right before the reference to the 1000 year reing.
Look through Revelation. A pretrib rapture is noticeably absent. Where is there any evidence in he Bible for it, at all? And how is it at all reconcilable with II Thessalonians 1, where comes back while the chuch is suffering tribulation, and when He returns, he executes vengeance on them that know not God. Don't pre-tribbers have Jesus go back up, say there is a time where people say 'Peace and Safety.' The wicked he executes vengeance on will be punished with everlasting destruction when He comes to be glorified in the saints. Pre-trib has it happen not at the same time or the same trip like the passage says.
And then there is Acts 1. The men say that Jesus will come in like manner that He went up. Did Jesus ascend, go up in the clouds, go back on the earth for seven years, and then go all the way up?
Where is there any passage that sets the timing of the rapture before the tribulation? Anyone can take a list of verses and say this happens at this point in time on my chart.... that I just made up, and that verse goes at another time. But where is the internal evidence from scripture?
And saying Jesus comes back twice is a HUGE leap. Why would anyone believe that without some explicit Biblical support for the idea?
There is no evidence that this was an established eschatological belief before 1820. There is no evidence the apostles or early church believed in the pre-trib rapture. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
9/30/23 9:41 pm
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Da Sheik |
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| Da Sheik wrote: | https://www.pre-trib.org/pretribfiles/pdfs/Ice-DifferencesBetweenTheRapt.pdf
Here is a great (quick) read that explains the differences between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming. There are similarities, but the differences are too much to ignore. |
Lot's of lame arguments, straw man arguments here, and false dichotomies here.
There is no contradiction between Jesus coming for His saints (to the air) and with His saints (to the earth.)
One of his points is nonsense. He writes, "while at the second coming believers return from heaven to the earth (Matt. 24:30). "
Huh? That verse says this:
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
He takes this to be a post-trib verse, and it is indeed clear that it is after a time of 'great tribulation'. But he says believers are coming back from heaven? Where does he get that? He cites verse 30. Maybe he means 31. The 'end of heaven' is the horizon. Isaiah 13:5 says of the Babylonians "They come from a far country, From the end of heaven—" (NKJV).
At the second coming, the angels gather the elect, with the sound of a trumpet, from one end of the heavens to the other. He gathers us from the extremes of the earth.
This is a strange and weak argument: "First, posttribulationism requires that the church will be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Dan. 9:24-27) even though it was absent from the first 69."
The church was a mystery in Old Testament times. Bits and pieces were revealed regarding the redemption of Gentiles, but it wasn't clear until it began to happen as the mystery was revealed through apostles and prophets. Why would the church not being present, assuming one accepts his assumption about Daniel 9, be an issue at all?
And why would post-tribbers have any more problem than pre-tribbers about there being survivors in the millennium. It is a 'post-trib' section of Matthew 24 that says one shall be taken and another left.
He mentions imminency...that seems to be a pre-trib tactic when they don't have any specific verses to support their claim.
The word translated 'meet' in 'meet the Lord in the air' in I Thessalonians 4:17 is ????????? (apant?sin). This word is used in two other contexts. In this one, the meeters are to accompany the one they meet as he goes where he is going.
Matthew 25:6
6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!
It is possible the brethren walked with Paul after Acts 28:15.
At the parousia of a government official, the people of the city could go out to meet the official and escort him back into the city.
His lists of comparisons are just reading the pre-trib idea into passages combined with arguments from silence.
For example, he says of the 2nd coming 'No translation at all.' But I Thessalonians 4 use the term for the second coming 'parousia' and describes the rapture as taking place.
Also, his point 'earth not judged' under rapture/translation is false because in II Thessalonians 1, the CHURCH of the Thessalonians receives rest when Jesus is revealed from heaven, executing judgment on them that know not God. It is treated as one trip.
No scripture says the rapture must be 'before he day of wrath.'
II Thessalonians 2 tells us some things about the coming of the Lord.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
The coming of the Lord is associated with 'our gathering together unto Him' and at the coming of the Lord, that Wicked (lawless one) is destroyed. The beast is destroyed in Revelation 19, not in chapters 3 or 4.
It is unreasonable to assert Jesus returns two more times without evidence.
Pre-trib just totally fabricates and makes up an addition return of Christ... with no Bible to back it up, then assigns some of the verses to the additional return of Christ, and some to the time of the actual return of Christ. And if one detail is mentioned in one passage and not the other, pretribbers treat that detail is if it is evidence of their two-coming theory... which the Bible does not teach.
Acts 1 already tells us,
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
(NKJV)
He went up and was received out of their sight behind a cloud. It doesn't say he went part-way up, came back for seven years, then went up again. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
9/30/23 11:24 pm
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