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 Moderate drinking has no health benefits |
Nature Boy Florida |
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| Re: Moderate drinking has no health benefits |
Link |
Well, there is the glad heart.
Psalm 104:15
And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.
Which reminds me of Proverbs 17:22
A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.
But that NY Times Headline has a stupidly unscientific sounding headline. The article was behind a paywall, but if a study did not find a health benefit to drink, that does not mean the study showed there was no health benefit to drinking. It is not the nature of any scientific study to prove anything so broad.
It reminds me of the effect described below:
"The Gell-Mann Effect, also called the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect describes the phenomenon of an expert believing news articles on topics outside of their field of expertise even after acknowledging that articles written in the same publication that are within the expert's field of expertise are error-ridden and full of misunderstanding. The term was coined by author and film producer Michael Crichton. He explains the irony of the term saying it came about "because I once discussed it with Murray Gell-Mann, and by dropping a famous name I imply greater importance to myself, and to the effect, than it would otherwise have," and describes the term in his talk "Why Speculate?" in which he says,
Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them. In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.
—?Michael Crichton"
from https://loricism.fandom.com/wiki/Gell-Mann_Amnesia_Effect
Journalists aren't usually specialists in what they are reporting on. They may be specialists in journalism, but since they aren't usually reporting on journalism, a lot of what they write about is bunk. I've seen them misinterpreting scientific data.
Maybe some of them do know the details of Washington politics, as that is fairly easy to understand without much special training if you follow it for years. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
4/5/23 11:33 pm
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georgiapath |
| Not only would it be no benefit to me but I am simply not interested. I have some alcoholic relatives that probably wish they had felt the same way. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7587
4/7/23 7:26 am
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| Agreed! |
spartanfan |
| I've won argument after argument here against drinking alcoholic beverages for any reason. Finally the science is catching up with the Bible. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
4/10/23 11:57 am
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| Re: Agreed! |
Link |
| spartanfan wrote: | | I've won argument after argument here against drinking alcoholic beverages for any reason. Finally the science is catching up with the Bible. |
A really good reason was at the Last Supper when Jesus said, 'Drink ye all of it....." obeying Jesus is a good reason. Using grape juice instead of kosher win that one week out of the year was illegal. |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
4/10/23 9:39 pm
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| Re: Agreed! |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Link wrote: | | spartanfan wrote: | | I've won argument after argument here against drinking alcoholic beverages for any reason. Finally the science is catching up with the Bible. |
A really good reason was at the Last Supper when Jesus said, 'Drink ye all of it....." obeying Jesus is a good reason. Using grape juice instead of kosher win that one week out of the year was illegal. |
Can't understand your sentence.
But you seemed to say that they needed to follow Jewish law at the last supper.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
4/11/23 6:46 am
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| Spartan Fan...NOPE |
Aaron Scott |
I have never had a drink in my 60 years, and don't plan to now. But you simply CANNOT win the argument from scripture.
It's WISE not to drink.
It's BEST not to drink.
It's IDEAL not to drink.
But the wine at the First Miracle and the Last Supper...was wine. I've heard all kind of tap dancing, but it never makes the case assuredly.
I would never counsel someone to drink (well, unless they were going to be executed the next morning, etc., maybe), but if someone challenged me, I KNOW I would lose the argument. And so will you, I'm afraid.
While I do admire your stance, the claim won't hold up, I fear.
If someone challenges me on it, I would have to appeal to the fact that, well, this is a Church of God, and we don't allow that. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/12/23 12:41 pm
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| NBF...so moderate drinking doesn't do anything? |
Aaron Scott |
Did the study say anything about EXTREME drinking? If that has benefits, then so does moderate drinking...since it gets you halfway there.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/12/23 12:42 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
So Aaron, your argument is that it’s okay for Christians to be unwise and to aim for less than best.
So then, be careful how you walk, not as unwise people but as wise, Ephesians 5:15
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.
How can one be spiritually sober if one is intoxicated, even just a little? Two or three alcoholic drinks (‘moderate’ drinking) is enough to get a DUI in most states for the average-sized person.
We are commanded to love God with ALL our heart, soul, MIND and STRENGTH, and to love our neighbor as ourself, neither of which are possible when one’s mental faculties are diminished by drugs or alcohol.
Science now shows there is no good reason and no benefit to drinking alcohol. The only card the pro-drinking crowd have now is the nice feelings they get when they’ve had a few. At that point, stupid has already started to kick in, leading to more drinking and more unwise decisions. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
4/12/23 6:11 pm
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| Re: Spartan Fan...NOPE |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | I have never had a drink in my 60 years, and don't plan to now. But you simply CANNOT win the argument from scripture.
It's WISE not to drink.
It's BEST not to drink.
It's IDEAL not to drink.
But the wine at the First Miracle and the Last Supper...was wine. I've heard all kind of tap dancing, but it never makes the case assuredly.
I would never counsel someone to drink (well, unless they were going to be executed the next morning, etc., maybe), but if someone challenged me, I KNOW I would lose the argument. And so will you, I'm afraid.
While I do admire your stance, the claim won't hold up, I fear.
If someone challenges me on it, I would have to appeal to the fact that, well, this is a Church of God, and we don't allow that. |
I only posted scientific studies. I know you have a difficult time with anything using science, reason, or even basic skills - but I just pointed out that those that tried to use science to make them feel better about drinking a Bud Light(probably your favorite brand if you did drink) - were proven to be mistaken.
This Bud Light is for you Aaron! (Were you recently in an ad campaign under an assumed name?)
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
4/13/23 6:43 am
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| Quiet Wyatt |
Aaron Scott |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | So Aaron, your argument is that it’s okay for Christians to be unwise and to aim for less than best.
YES, THAT IS PRECISELY THE ARGUMENT I MADE. (SMILE)
We ALL do things that are unwise. It's kind of like living on how the old minimum wage worked (maybe the newer one too): If you spend your money perfectly, you can survive on minimum wage. But go the movies, buy an extra candy bar, drive out of state to visit family...and you can't afford it.
To say we SHOULDN'T do something is not the same as we CANNOT do something (in the sense that it is wrong). After all, "it is good for a man NOT to marry." Well, if you marry, did you choose the good? Paul goes on to say that, well, if you do marry, you have not sinned. Well, that's wonderful news, isn't it? You have not chosen the best course, but at least you have not sinned. (SMILE)
We are called to MODERATION. Some things cannot be had even in moderation (e.g., there is no "moderate" amount of adultery that is acceptable), but in some gray areas, if there is no specific prohibition, then we can do one of three things: go beyond moderation, be moderate, abstain.
I don't think a person should drink at all. The main reason is that it is associated with the world and can hurt one's testimony. But I will remind you that Wade Horton felt that way about golf (cow pasture pool, he called it). And the COG, in some quarters, defined "worldly amusements" as letting your child play sports, going to the fair, and the such. So we must tread lightly in those areas for which we don't have soli scriptural backing.
So then, be careful how you walk, not as unwise people but as wise, Ephesians 5:15
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.
How can one be spiritually sober if one is intoxicated, even just a little? Two or three alcoholic drinks (‘moderate’ drinking) is enough to get a DUI in most states for the average-sized person.
Now, I'm not arguing for drinking--you know that I'm against it. But I have seen people who were in the hospital or nursing home on drugs...and their spirituality did not seem diminished. If anything, it seemed their flesh no longer kept them from being very forward spiritually. (Of course, that is with moderation.)
We are commanded to love God with ALL our heart, soul, MIND and STRENGTH, and to love our neighbor as ourself, neither of which are possible when one’s mental faculties are diminished by drugs or alcohol.
This is not (necessarily) the case, I don't believe. Just as there are mean drunks, so too are there the "I love you, man" drunks. Same with drugs. Some years ago, when I was on painkillers after surgical complications, I became a teddy bear instead of the usual grizzly I can be.
Are your mental faculties "diminished" when you wake up out of a deep sleep? Well, yes, a little bit. But not enough to cause me to say "You should never sleep, because your mental faculties will be diminished when you wake up."
While I believe in complete abstinence, I also can accept that MODERATE drink likely doesn't diminish ones mental faculties to the point that they cannot do the right thing. I've talked with plenty of folks who had a beer in their hand, but were completely of sound mind and the such.
We have every right in the world to decry and denounce drunkeness. It is absolutely against the scriptures. But moderation? I can't find that in the scriptures.
There is a saying that I believe in: "Complete abstinence is easier than perfect moderation." I can back that with complete confidence. But if someone asked me to show them in the scriptures where they cannot have a beer, I might reply, "You may be able to have a beer, but you cannot be a member of the Church of God."
Science now shows there is no good reason and no benefit to drinking alcohol. The only card the pro-drinking crowd have now is the nice feelings they get when they’ve had a few. At that point, stupid has already started to kick in, leading to more drinking and more unwise decisions. |
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/13/23 10:47 am
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| NBF... |
Aaron Scott |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | I have never had a drink in my 60 years, and don't plan to now. But you simply CANNOT win the argument from scripture.
It's WISE not to drink.
It's BEST not to drink.
It's IDEAL not to drink.
But the wine at the First Miracle and the Last Supper...was wine. I've heard all kind of tap dancing, but it never makes the case assuredly.
I would never counsel someone to drink (well, unless they were going to be executed the next morning, etc., maybe), but if someone challenged me, I KNOW I would lose the argument. And so will you, I'm afraid.
While I do admire your stance, the claim won't hold up, I fear.
If someone challenges me on it, I would have to appeal to the fact that, well, this is a Church of God, and we don't allow that. |
I only posted scientific studies. I know you have a difficult time with anything using science, reason, or even basic skills - but I just pointed out that those that tried to use science to make them feel better about drinking a Bud Light(probably your favorite brand if you did drink) - were proven to be mistaken.
This Bud Light is for you Aaron! (Were you recently in an ad campaign under an assumed name?) |
When I saw the commercial, I turned to my wife and said, "I KNOW THAT GUY--HE GOES BY NBF!!!" (Although, to be fair, the guy in the commercial looked more manly that you, so I could be mistaken.)
Yes, science and reason are things I seek to avoid. I use the Tao...going only on the path of least resistance so that the river flows most smoothly.
I know you are probably curled up now with dozens of empty Bud Light cans lying around your Lazy Boy, as you admire your image on the cans, but I will have you know that you WILL be reported to the Church of God for this!
For all I know, you may be using different pronouns now. So they better watch out of they will be getting in deep trouble! I know you'll probably say, "WE don't do such things all the time," to which I will say, "They do too!"
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/13/23 10:52 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
Yeah, I’m going to go with wisdom and what is best as the goal, just as any sincere Christian would. The fact that Christians CAN be unwise is not a justification for it. Good grief.
Also, waking up groggy is not a moral issue, it’s literally a physical one. I can’t believe someone as intelligent as yourself would try to make such a ridiculous comparison. We all have to sleep and we all have to wake up, some more slowly or groggily than others. By this absolutely silly comparison, you’re saying God expects us to never be groggy, and if we are, we’re not pleasing to Him.
Pain medication or anesthesia likewise isn’t a valid comparison, as no one is arguing that pain medication is wrong to take under a doctor’s supervision when necessary due to surgery, for instance. Drinking alcohol is an absolutely unnecessary and unprofitable endeavor with no redeeming value whatsoever involved. Pain meds after surgery aren’t even in the same category. Also, the “I love you man” drunks are not being virtuous or loving in a godly way. They are just emoting under the influence. Emotion, in and of itself, is neither worthy of praise nor blame. It is simply a response to whatever one’s stupified mind is focused on in the moment. Godly love is an intelligent choice to promote the highest good of all and for all.
Regarding the issue of celibacy vs marriage, Paul states that not everyone has the gift of celibacy, so again, your comparison simply does not follow. In those cases, it is better to marry than to burn with passion. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
4/13/23 1:00 pm
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| Re: NBF... |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Aaron Scott wrote: |
When I saw the commercial, I turned to my wife and said, "I KNOW THAT GUY--HE GOES BY NBF!!!" (Although, to be fair, the guy in the commercial looked more manly that you, so I could be mistaken.)
|
That is hurtful man.
I bet you drink Bud Lights at Antifa/Hillary/FSU conventions - calling to defund the police - while listening to Barbra Striesand music. (All the same thing to the rest of us.)
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
4/13/23 1:29 pm
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| Re: Spartan Fan...NOPE |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | This Bud Light is for you Aaron! (Were you recently in an ad campaign under an assumed name?) |
Sonnnnnnnnn....................
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Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15566
4/13/23 9:46 pm
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| Quiet Wyatt |
Aaron Scott |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Yeah, I’m going to go with wisdom and what is best as the goal, just as any sincere Christian would. The fact that Christians CAN be unwise is not a justification for it. Good grief.
You DID read my post, right? Because I NOWHERE said or implied that drinking is justified (well, except if you were going to be executed very shortly, etc., perhaps). I don't think anyone SHOULD drink.
The issue, though, is this: DOES THE BIBLE SAY YOU CANNOT DRINK? That is the whole point of this discussion. And, no, the Bible doesn't say you can drink.
And I noted that you did not make your argument from the scriptures. But if we are going with the notion that "if it is unwise, a Christian must not do it," the key here is that what is unwise is kind of subjective.
I think it's deeply unwise to buy shoes that cost over $1000. But I'm sure the billionaire may have a very different view of that. For that matter, there are probably plenty of poor folks who would think that $100 for a pair of dress shoes is too much, thus un
The scriptures give us a standard from God. But if I say something is unwise, a lot of times that is based solely on my own thinking, nothing more.
In some regions of the world, having wine with supper is not much different that us having iced tea at supper. One can get you drunk, the other can get you overweight. Neither of those extremes are welcome, but in moderation, those extremes will not likely be experienced.
Also, waking up groggy is not a moral issue, it’s literally a physical one. I can’t believe someone as intelligent as yourself would try to make such a ridiculous comparison. We all have to sleep and we all have to wake up, some more slowly or groggily than others. By this absolutely silly comparison, you’re saying God expects us to never be groggy, and if we are, we’re not pleasing to Him.
Of course it's not a moral issue. But consider that we were not discussing being DRUNK. We are discussing non-excessive drinking. I can easily make the case against drunkenness from the scriptures. But I cannot make the case against drinking AT ALL. Nor can you--and as you know, I recognize you as a first-order thinker.
Let's assume that indeed your thinking skills are diminished from even a single drink. Well, while I've never had a drink before, I have over the years had to receive pain medication which diminished my thinking.
HOWEVER, while such medication might have kept me from solving a problem using the quadratic equation, it never even came close to making me unable to judge between, or know what I was doing, when it came to right and wrong.
The diminished capabilities you mentioned that come with drinking certainly regarding operating heavy machinery, driving, etc. But only if your diminished faculties would reasonably endanger others, cause moral failure, or damage your testimony would you have a strong case, I believe.
While it takes a horse pill-sized dose of pain medication before I can even feel it in my body or my head, I can still converse, make decisions, and fully understand that certain choices would be immoral, etc. If I took too much, then, yes, assuming I could remain awake, I might do something stupid. But in truth--and you know this about me quite well--I don't need any pain medication or drink to make me do something stupid. It's just built-in--automatic like.
So the point about diminished faculties doesn't come into play unless and until one has enough to drink to make it a moral issue (and endangering others would be immoral).
Pain medication or anesthesia likewise isn’t a valid comparison, as no one is arguing that pain medication is wrong to take under a doctor’s supervision when necessary due to surgery, for instance. Drinking alcohol is an absolutely unnecessary and unprofitable endeavor with no redeeming value whatsoever involved. Pain meds after surgery aren’t even in the same category. Also, the “I love you man” drunks are not being virtuous or loving in a godly way. They are just emoting under the influence. Emotion, in and of itself, is neither worthy of praise nor blame. It is simply a response to whatever one’s stupified mind is focused on in the moment. Godly love is an intelligent choice to promote the highest good of all and for all.
Consider the following scenario....
As you know, medical studies change from time to time. I have heard that salt was terrible for you. Then, no, it's not all that bad at all. I have heard that eating fats is horrible...then Atkins and Keto. I have heard that drinking was bad, then good (in moderation), then bad again, then good again, etc.
So, let's say that two years from now a new study comes out that drinking is absolutely beneficial for you. Well, right now you claim it has no redeeming qualities, but some future medical study will almost certainly find that it does have some benefits.
For many people, their background/testimony would make it a strong threat to their testimony AND their physical well-being (e.g., someone who was an alcoholic in the past). I totally get that, and I agree. But while a person should not drink in front of such a person, since it would cause offense, it does not follow that once can never drink at all. To cause offense to a weak conscience is a scriptural prohibition (I define "offense" as something that would cause a brother or sister to stumble). But to drink in, say, the privacy of one's home is not prohibited by scripture as best I can tell.
Now, if a COG member was drinking, it would not offend me and cause me to stumble, but it would hurt their testimony AND THEIR PROMISE TO ADHERE TO OUR BELIEFS.
Regarding the issue of celibacy vs marriage, Paul states that not everyone has the gift of celibacy, so again, your comparison simply does not follow. In those cases, it is better to marry than to burn with passion. |
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/14/23 6:52 pm
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| Aaron, Aaron.. |
Quiet Wyatt |
You are the one who claimed it was wisest and best to not drink alcohol. So using your own standard, which I agree with of course, I quoted one scripture (among many others I could have quoted to the same effect) commanding Christians to not be unwise, but wise, and another which commands Christians to be sober and vigilant spiritually, which of course is impossible if one is intoxicated.
I simply used your own standard, which you then quickly showed was an insincere one on your part by essentially saying that it’s really okay for Christians to be unwise. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
4/15/23 9:28 am
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| GLory to God anyhow |
Bound For Beaulah |
Hallalujah, Praise GOD ANYHOW
KILLER ALCHOHOL is of SATAN
ALL forms of it is tummyrot
stay away from the mess
Jesus is coming back for a holy bride not a drunk skunk
HOLINESS or Hell anything else is Tummyrot
Beaulah |
Friendly Face
Posts: 183
4/15/23 12:21 pm
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| QW...QW.... |
Aaron Scott |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | You are the one who claimed it was wisest and best to not drink alcohol. So using your own standard, which I agree with of course, I quoted one scripture (among many others I could have quoted to the same effect) commanding Christians to not be unwise, but wise, and another which commands Christians to be sober and vigilant spiritually, which of course is impossible if one is intoxicated.
I simply used your own standard, which you then quickly showed was an insincere one on your part by essentially saying that it’s really okay for Christians to be unwise. |
No, my friend, I don't think is "okay" for Christians to be unwise. It's just that being "unwise" is objective most of the time.
Yes, it's unwise to jump off tall bridges. Unless you're on fire. But while we can all agree that certain extreme things are unwise, I can find numerous people that will say that going to college is unwise. And numerous others to say the opposite.
My dad thinks it's not a good idea to buy a Chrysler (learned in his childhood), while one of my best friends will drive nothing but Chryslers.
Now, me? I think it's unwise to drink alcohol AT ALL. So while it might be unwise for ME to drink alcohol, it may not at all seem unwise to someone else--especially someone in a culture where drinking wine is not the "thing" it is for holiness believers.
Yes, I think it's best not to drink at all. But I have received the occasional helpful emails before that tell me that it's not wise to drink Diet Coke. Or eat eggs. Or what have you.
So while I can make a rule for me (and you, since we see this somewhat alike), where in the world do I get off on telling everyone else they have to do what WE think is right for them? If they did what I wanted, the ladies would all go back to those old-fashioned holiness standards that I grew up with, and that I love and treasure.
Skinny jeans would be outlawed.
Key Lime pie would be made correctly or not at all.
Every Church of God would be a lot like the Dallas Church of God.
But that's me. I do think like, appreciate, and tend to think (more or less) that most of these ways are the best ways (though my wife would utterly disagree on my preferred dress code!).
I think it would be a wonderful idea to only allow children to watch Daniel Boone, Andy Griffith, The Beverly Hillbillies, and such gentle fare. In fact, I would even say that, like me, no one should grow up with a TV in the house!
But while I think those are good ideas--maybe even wise ones--I'm pretty sure most folks aren't going to agree.
That is why if I say that it is unwise to drink, I BELIEVE that, but I have no authority beyond my own preferences. If the SCRIPTURES said it was unwise, then we could make the claim much more boldly and certainly.
I can find some reasons to try to make my case. But others can find a good reason to make their case. For instance, a year ago, before this study came out, and back when it was thought that a little wine was good for you (and even the Bible seems to indicate that), mine and your opinion about drinking would be based on...what? Our opinion. Our preferences.
Now that a new study is out (wait around a while, there'll be another one, I'm sure), we can more boldly state our claim. But it's STILL just an opinion. I doubt there's any health benefit to Sweet Tea and Diet Coke, but not one is making a case against them from the Bible.
If this doesn't indicate what I'm thinking, then we shall have to agree to disagree. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/15/23 7:35 pm
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| Re: Agreed! |
UncleJD |
| spartanfan wrote: | | I've won argument after argument here against drinking alcoholic beverages for any reason. Finally the science is catching up with the Bible. |
Thanks for the laugh this morning |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3139
4/17/23 9:05 am
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