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 Non-Competes for Pastors |
FG Minister |
I am no longer COG and will retire in the next few years. We are joining with many other churches in the US and requiring my successor to sign a non-compete agreement. He cannot leave this congregation (400 attendees) and start his own church within 50 miles within 36 months after his resignation. Arguments are made against these by saying "we're all on the same team - all spreading the same gospel. Why not allow the former guy to set up shop next door?"
I'll tell you why. Any Pastor, Associate Pastor, Youth Pastor etc. who sets up shop down the road from the place he just left and takes families from the original congregation, is a fraud. He is uprooting plants from one garden and planting them in his own garden. Without approval from the church, this isn't growing the kingdom; this is dividing the kingdom! He is taking volunteers, donors, and worshippers from the place he was supposed to be a unifier and role model, and pilfering them to further his own kingdom. The ONLY reason I could see for this to occur is if the original church had veered away from the gospel and would not return to truth. This motivation is more lofty than just wanting to start with a "base."
I can see why so many churches are going with non-competes. We have a punitive clause as well. If the departing pastor sets up shop in violation, he must return 12 months of salary. Will it hold up in court - who knows? But of the 350,000 churches in the US, I would assume that well over 150,000 started when a pastor left one church and set up his own fiefdom down the road. I'm all in favor of non-competes. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 875
2/16/23 11:07 am
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FLRon |
As an associate pastor, I have to agree with what you’ve said FG. I’ve seen far too many church splits that resulted from someone leaving to start a new work close to their former church.
If I were to leave and start a new church, which I have no intention of doing, I would really rather not have anyone from the other church start attending my new church. I would much rather start from scratch, as hard as that would be. At least then I would know that I did things in an honorable way.
This is similar to situations where you have two or more CoG congregations in short proximity to each other and one of them gets a new pastor and before you know it, he’s welcoming any and all members from the other churches to transfer their membership to his church. That is just wrong and any pastor that does that is not one I’d associate with.
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“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Voddie Baucham |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 777
2/16/23 10:38 pm
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georgiapath |
| I totally agree, dishonest in every sense of the word. This happened not too lone ago in Cartersville, Ga. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7593
2/17/23 9:41 pm
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| Then again, ... |
Mat |
Then again, pastors are encouraged to minister in a location they feel called to, perhaps to plant a church or built a small congregation into a large ministry, only to be wrongfully dismissed by a Bishop/Overseer/Supervision (who may put one of his "men" in the now large church). I've seen this, I know pastors who have been removed, but not given options or told to move to a small church with no support.
The ability of a pastor to go down the street and start another church (especially if he leaves the denomination) is one of the few protection a pastor has for his ministry, and the well being of his family. In more than one case, it as been a true-ism, a pastor can build it, but the bishop can steal it.
Often tactics are used against pastors (and leaders), such as slandering/libeling their good name and reputation, or conspiring with a less then majority of the congregation to remove the them. Sometimes this happens in secret and without allowing the pastor to be part of the conversation. In denominations especially, the polity and timelines, as well as the authority structure is "staked" against the pastor.
I have heard that "non-competes" contract have been used in many sectors, only be be struck down by the courts. A pastor done wrong by a denomination or church has the right to go to civil court, as we have seen that denominations are very willing to take their former ministers/pastor to court. If you have signed a non-compete, perhaps there should be substantial compensation if you are removed, or justification to sue both the Bishop/Overseer or local church for damages.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1986
2/20/23 10:25 am
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Cojak |
Very good subject. I competely agree with the OP for independent churches. I don't see how this could be used in a denomination. Not sure if the COG could take a minister to court if he left the denomination and started a new church across the street, which has happened.
In a denomination set up as the COG, many hard working ministers have had the rug pulled out from under them and have had good Christian members side with them and rightly so when the offended preacher felt compelled to organize a church nearby.
I have learned a lot in my travels, one is that ALL independent ministers are not bound for hell, as I remember our denomination practically preached up until the 1960- 70 time frame.
There have been 'splits' in churches that it seems could not be avoided, but in my opinion (formed from my dad's stand) with dedicated Christians, in prayer, we should be able to come to agreements with most of our disagreements, and show love one to another.  . 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24282
2/20/23 3:59 pm
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sheepdogandy |
Nobody took us to court. 
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7304
2/21/23 2:17 pm
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| Re: Non-Competes for Pastors |
Link |
Setting up another congregation nearby can also be a church-growth type strategy. House churches have done this, including the rapidly growing type that multiply into the thousands as they win souls to Christ. It doesn't have to be a competitive thing, or the result of a church split.
Does the contract also have an iron-clad guarantee that the pastor will have a job for so many years, and get a certain salary? How dependable are salary guarantees?
And if there is a violation of the contract, might not the leaders of the former congregation be tempted to sin by taking a brother to court before unbelievers? Doesn't this contract provision go beyond clarifying roles and just open up opportunity to sin? |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
2/23/23 8:21 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| I’m trying to imagine the Apostle Paul or Apostle John or Jesus endorsing something like this. I just can’t. When the church is viewed as fundamentally a business, such things make sense, but the church which is His body is fellowship in the Spirit, with Spirit-anointed leaders. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12802
2/23/23 8:32 am
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| Re: Non-Competes for Pastors |
Mat |
| Link wrote: | Setting up another congregation nearby can also be a church-growth type strategy. House churches have done this, including the rapidly growing type that multiply into the thousands as they win souls to Christ. It doesn't have to be a competitive thing, or the result of a church split.
Does the contract also have an iron-clad guarantee that the pastor will have a job for so many years, and get a certain salary? How dependable are salary guarantees?
And if there is a violation of the contract, might not the leaders of the former congregation be tempted to sin by taking a brother to court before unbelievers? Doesn't this contract provision go beyond clarifying roles and just open up opportunity to sin? |
Link,
Church of God history is found in the records of countless civil suits, as well as criminal. Many a ministry/position has been lost to those with the best lawyer and the willingness to be first to take a "brother" to court. Often the claim is, "he took money" (or land, or building, or congregation) so taking him to court is not taking a brother to court, but a "sinner" who did wrong. De-Christianizing (character assignation) is how they justify such actions.
There are those who are still ministering today, who have been taken to court over disputes that should have been resolved long before a lawsuit was filed. All ministers should have an "exit plan" just in case they find themselves on the wrong side of authority in a local church or denomination. Many have poured all they had into building a ministry just to end up "out and poor" themselves.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1986
2/24/23 7:37 am
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sheepdogandy |
Ask Joe Chambers.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7304
2/24/23 5:36 pm
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| I don't know that history? |
Mat |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | | Ask Joe Chambers. |
Sheepdogandy,
I'm not COG, just have a long history with it, but I do not know the detail of what happened with Joe Chambers. Perhaps you could share how his case intersects with our discussion.
Not trying to be belligerent or confrontational, I just don't know that history. It seems in my mind to be about the same time as a General Overseer (White?) was removed and a State Overseer (perhaps in TN) got caught with a woman (was that in the State Parsonage while his wife was away?).
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1986
2/25/23 7:52 am
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| I Can't See Jesus |
FG Minister |
Or Paul or any of the others buying advertising on FaceBook either, but that's beside the point!
For those who are opposed to non-competes, I must assume you would be perfectly fine investing ten years into a local congregation, growing it, discipling the families, and then your Associate Pastor decides to leave and goes three blocks down the road and takes 50 people with him. If you are OK with that, then you can honestly oppose non-competes. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 875
2/25/23 8:25 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
With regard to the idea of Jesus or the Apostles endorsing non-compete clauses, it is the *principle* of thinking the church is a business that must be protected even if that means taking a brother to court that I just don’t see scriptural warrant for.
Of course social media like Facebook didn’t even exist back then, but the *principle* of spreading the word is not something opposed to scripture at all of course.
As to the scenario of an associate taking members to start a new church nearby, in certain cases that would be unethical but in others it would seem to be very necessary—such as when a senior pastor is found to be indulging in blatant doctrinal or practical deviance from the Scriptures, and leadership is not doing anything about it. I have seen that happen in nondenominational and denominational churches in fact.
The New Testament plainly condemns taking a brother to court. The NT also reveals the apostles pulled no punches in calling out false teachers and warns against wolves in sheep’s clothing drawing away disciples unto themselves. But nowhere does the NT advocate for using human civil courts to decide matters like this. If they leave and some people leave with them, you never really had them to begin with. By this same logic, one could just as well sue people for not paying the tithes they had agreed to pay when they joined, or for leaving the church they had joined years before. People are free moral agents. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12802
2/25/23 10:24 am
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sheepdogandy |
Bro Joe's position.
"Not the same Church of God I joined, significant changes my people nor I do not agree with."
The Congregation's effort to keep the property was met with litigation.
They lost.
They relocated a few miles away.
Church of God General HQ has left them alone since then.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7304
2/25/23 1:13 pm
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Cojak |
| sheepdogandy wrote: |
Church of God General HQ has left them alone since then. |
My point exactly. Every COG pastor knows unless the situation is altered in the beginning of a church with the deed NOT in the COG name, the property is not the pastors NOR the members.
Joe knew this. I sympathized with Joe, but he KNEW the rules he had pastored under. Once he left, the COG had no control on what he did as long as he did not start another COG, which he did not of course.
Sad but true, However many COG folk today are changing their views and prefer a Congregational approach to Church...
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24282
2/25/23 10:41 pm
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| There seems to be a reluctance ... |
Mat |
There seems to be a reluctance among some denominational congregations to commit to building new campus which they do not control. After all, so many local churches have depended on the membership to pay the mortgage, pay the expenses (utilities, supplies, etc), help clean the church, as well as help repair and maintain the building. The older generation felt this was part of their calling and ministry as members of the local church. They don't look to kindly to the idea of the denomination laying claim to the property, as the denomination had little to nothing to do with it in the first place.
If a pastor and a large majority of the congregation feel led to leave the denomination, there steps that can be taken. One is simply develop a separate location not under the denomination and have people pour their resources into it instead of the old property. When the time comes to "activate" the new church, just hand over the keys to the denomination, which will most likely rent it out to sell it and keep the money.
Secondly, there is what the financial world calls a "poison pill", which is having so much debt on the property that the denomination can not afford to take the property over. This is especially true if there are several churches doing this at the same time.
Once the church is independent, all the pastor as to worry about is when they will get rid of him.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1986
2/26/23 9:12 am
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| Re: There seems to be a reluctance ... |
Cojak |
| Mat wrote: | ........
Secondly, there is what the financial world calls a "poison pill", which is having so much debt on the property that the denomination can not afford to take the property over. This is especially true if there are several churches doing this at the same time.
......
Mat |
We have lost several churches due to the above situation. Sadly the Church HQ signed on to some dream that turned into nightmares. It has hurt many leaders who signed onto millions of $ when the assets were not there....
One in the Mt. Holly area of NC took the church and debt, lost it, and now are coming back into the COG using an old COG building BUT a NEW NAME! 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24282
2/26/23 10:02 am
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sheepdogandy |
"Once the church is independent, all the pastor as to worry about is when they will get rid of him."
That's right.
I've been here since 1989.
It's taken them a long time.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7304
2/26/23 10:02 am
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skinnybishop |
Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that some people simply have no ethics. You can be right, and do wrong.
To me, its not the what, its the how. If someone wants to start a new church, that's fine.
It is supposed to be a new church. Don't tear down one, to build another.
_________________
Eddie Wiggins |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1055
3/1/23 10:16 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
| skinnybishop wrote: | Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that some people simply have no ethics. You can be right, and do wrong.
To me, its not the what, its the how. If someone wants to start a new church, that's fine.
It is supposed to be a new church. Don't tear down one, to build another. |
You would think "pastors" would live by this.
I heard Gene Rice preach once that "you can't be living right when you're doing someone wrong!"
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16627
3/1/23 11:31 am
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