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Nature Boy Florida |
I have it downloaded.
Just a point of interest - the inexperienced writer and historian Conn - never had a charge of plagiarism.
But the DR of writing does.
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Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
10/5/22 12:13 pm
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| Who's the "DR of writing"? |
Mat |
Nature Boy,
Who's the "DR of writing?"
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
10/5/22 12:41 pm
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| plagiarism |
Mat |
A discussion of plagiarism would be interesting, as over the years I have read books that freely use writings from people like A. J. Tomlinson without permission. I guess they are "public domain" because of how "old" they are, but still, how can you take someone's published writing, put it in a book and then say it is your intellectual property (copywriter).
The issue with the dissertation, as was explained to me, is that someone would take Dr. Hudson's work and research and publish it under their own name. It was pointed out that this happens quite often in the academic world. Which is worst, someone who used the title Doctor when it is unearned and honorarily, or someone who plagiaries their dissertation or theses?
I have notice that many religious writers publish similar books.
Did Conn get permission to used A. J. Tomlinson material?
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
10/5/22 12:51 pm
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| Re: Who's the "DR of writing"? |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Mat wrote: | Nature Boy,
Who's the "DR of writing?"
Mat |
The guy who claimed Conn wasn't qualified to write a history - that he was prejudiced - unlearned if you will. See dissertation you posted earlier.
Whatever his doctorate is in - I guess it didn't include any integrity regarding plagiarism.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
10/6/22 6:35 am
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| Re: plagiarism |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Mat wrote: | A discussion of plagiarism would be interesting, as over the years I have read books that freely use writings from people like A. J. Tomlinson without permission. I guess they are "public domain" because of how "old" they are, but still, how can you take someone's published writing, put it in a book and then say it is your intellectual property (copywriter).
The issue with the dissertation, as was explained to me, is that someone would take Dr. Hudson's work and research and publish it under their own name. It was pointed out that this happens quite often in the academic world. Which is worst, someone who used the title Doctor when it is unearned and honorarily, or someone who plagiaries their dissertation or theses?
I have notice that many religious writers publish similar books.
Did Conn get permission to used A. J. Tomlinson material?
Mat |
Cmon man. You post a hatchet job on Conn - who can't defend himself - degrading him more with every post you put on here - and expect me to let you get away with it without posting my own take on your Dr. boys flaws?
Sorry man.
It was an interesting read - but its just another historical writing - with its own presuppositions and prejudices (and plagiarism) littered throughout. I have duly noted the parts that I was unaware of previously - but I do not take it as the gospel anymore than you take the Conn editions as gospel.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
10/6/22 6:40 am
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| Yes, people write from their perspective ... |
Mat |
Yes, people write from their perspective, and I will agree with you there, but this must apply to Conn as it does to any writer, including Hudson.
No, Conn is not here to defend himself, and neither was AJT (who died in 1943) when Conn wrote about him and published in 1955. There are many ways to look at COG history other than what has been written in LAMA, and it is important to look to outside sources for a better understanding of what the movement was all about.
The point of the paper is that LAMA is not all inclusive or authoritative as to the lives of the individuals who were part of the movement. Conn wrote as a product of his time and, as research tells us, to the guidelines of the COG leadership of the time.
Both Conn and Tomlinson (and a host of others) were great Christian men and women in the movement, but we should use the same "measure" to study all their lives. I get that you're COG to the core and LAMA is an important component of that identity, but I know of and personally know those who were COG and left (for various reasons) and their impression and opinions differ greatly from yours. All good Christians like you, but different perspectives.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
10/6/22 8:49 am
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| Re: Yes, people write from their perspective ... |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Mat wrote: | Yes, people write from their perspective, and I will agree with you there, but this must apply to Conn as it does to any writer, including Hudson.
No, Conn is not here to defend himself, and neither was AJT (who died in 1943) when Conn wrote about him and published in 1955. There are many ways to look at COG history other than what has been written in LAMA, and it is important to look to outside sources for a better understanding of what the movement was all about.
The point of the paper is that LAMA is not all inclusive or authoritative as to the lives of the individuals who were part of the movement. Conn wrote as a product of his time and, as research tells us, to the guidelines of the COG leadership of the time.
Both Conn and Tomlinson (and a host of others) were great Christian men and women in the movement, but we should use the same "measure" to study all their lives. I get that you're COG to the core and LAMA is an important component of that identity, but I know of and personally know those who were COG and left (for various reasons) and their impression and opinions differ greatly from yours. All good Christians like you, but different perspectives.
Mat |
I can agree with this.
And I found the treatise very interesting. (His Spirit Beings writings especially illuminated some things my grandmother used to say and believe. It helped me understand her in a new way - and for that it was more than worth the read)
That's why I read all of it.
I sincerely appreciate you posting it.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
10/6/22 9:15 am
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| Again, to explain why ... |
Mat |
Again, to explain as to why the dissertation was placed back in "Embargoed" status by the U of Penn, there is concern someone will plagiarize his work and research before he is able to publish in a book where he will be able to expand and explain his findings and process.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
10/9/22 8:10 am
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| Re: Mat... |
Link |
| Aaron Scott wrote: |
Some of the things that have come down to us (e.g., not drinking softdrinks, etc.) were SPOKEN by AJT, but were not official doctrine. That might have been a sore spot also, since he was using his influence rather than relying on the discussion of the General Council, etc.
Just my take on things.... |
Did he advise against drinking all soft drinks or just coca-cola? It's a bit fuzzy when this changed, but originally Coca-Cola had cocaine and high amounts of caffeine in it. I read this was why our grandparents could walk two miles in the snow to school, both ways. 
I have read they took the cocaine out around the turn of the century, but I don't know about that. It could be that within living memory, Coca-cola had had cocaine in it.
And I'm sure if you have a health conscious pastor today, he might advise against drinking soft drinks, just like many health experts do today. It wasn't really bad advice. It's been a while since I heard the clip (which I think was audio), but did he say it was a sin to drink it? |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
12/6/22 10:18 am
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Link |
| Btw, is the work embargoed so that he can publish a book? |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
12/6/22 10:19 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Mat wrote: | Where did "Dr." Conn earn(?) his doctorate?
Mat |
Charles Conn had no earned doctorate. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
12/8/22 6:57 pm
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| Re: Mat... |
Mat |
| Link wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: |
Some of the things that have come down to us (e.g., not drinking softdrinks, etc.) were SPOKEN by AJT, but were not official doctrine. That might have been a sore spot also, since he was using his influence rather than relying on the discussion of the General Council, etc.
Just my take on things.... |
Did he advise against drinking all soft drinks or just coca-cola? It's a bit fuzzy when this changed, but originally Coca-Cola had cocaine and high amounts of caffeine in it. I read this was why our grandparents could walk two miles in the snow to school, both ways.
I have read they took the cocaine out around the turn of the century, but I don't know about that. It could be that within living memory, Coca-cola had had cocaine in it.
And I'm sure if you have a health conscious pastor today, he might advise against drinking soft drinks, just like many health experts do today. It wasn't really bad advice. It's been a while since I heard the clip (which I think was audio), but did he say it was a sin to drink it? |
When it comes to "coca-cola" and its use, while the time frame was important as to why it was taught against, to lay the "ban" solely at the feet of AJT is to miss-understand the beliefs of many COG folks, including leaders at the time. As a matter of fact, this is a good example of what Dr. Hudson pointed to when Conn "packaged" everything that would be disputed or was outside the norm, and place it in the AJT era.
Like no term limits and signs following, many issues were continued well after the 1923 split by COG leaders and members. Again, a prime example is Lee, who practice signs following (including approving of snake handling) up to and including his death.
There was a legitimate concern about coca-cola having drugs in it, as there was about the patent medicines of the time. I know in the COGOP it took a letter from the manufacture which stated there was no cocaine in coca-cola anymore to lift the ban on drinking coke. As said, we may have been healthier Pentecostals if we had not started drinking coke.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
12/12/22 8:17 am
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| It seems to be ... |
Mat |
| Link wrote: | | Btw, is the work embargoed so that he can publish a book? |
Yes, it seems to be, as there is concern some would take his research and write their own book. How many times have we seen this in the "Christian" publishing industry?
I once tried to weed through all the different authors of books about the "seven mountains of authority" to find the earliest writer. It seems every other minister and pastor has a book on the subject, and they seem to read the same.
Church people like to say "our pastor is published".
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
12/12/22 8:21 am
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| You're right OTCP |
Mat |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Mat wrote: | Where did "Dr." Conn earn(?) his doctorate?
Mat |
Charles Conn had no earned doctorate. |
You're right OTCP, and I don't think its wrong to question Conn's level of education when he first wrote LAMA, or methodology, or who he was working for. You, as we all should, have freely questioned many leaders writings, as to influences, sources, and academics. Why not Conn's?
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
12/12/22 8:27 am
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| You're right OTCP |
Mat |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Mat wrote: | Where did "Dr." Conn earn(?) his doctorate?
Mat |
Charles Conn had no earned doctorate. |
You're right OTCP, and I don't think its wrong to question Conn's level of education when he first wrote LAMA, or methodology, or who he was working for. You, as we all should, have freely questioned many leaders writings, as to influences, sources, and academics. Why not Conn's?
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
12/12/22 8:28 am
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| Here's the deal... |
Aaron Scott |
First, history is not comprised of just events. It is the INTERPRETATION of those events.
Second, in the first 2-3 decades after the 1923 split, there was a very different view of AJT in the Church of God. I'm sure that many feelings were hurt. No doubt some were upset that he just went down the street and set up an almost identical organization, instead of vanishing from the stage. Further, the COGOP no doubt had some of their own takes on matters, which would almost certainly inform the response of the COG (and Bro. Conn).
If a member says bad things about a pastor, it is very hard for the pastor to not say anything, since, as I heard one preacher put it, "reputation" is often the only thing a pastor has (in terms of personal currency). So that might very well have happened on both sides. If Mr. COGOP says something bad about Mr. COG, it may be that Mr. COGOP is NOT an official voice of the COGOP, but it might still compel Mr. COG to offer a response.
By all accounts, Charles Conn was exceptional. I have yet to meet a Ph.D that impresses me as much as he did. I again point out that those who heard it firsthand have a greater claim on our theology than someone who didn't. And Bro. Conn had a much earlier (even if incomplete) story of the COG.
Personally, it is my take that AJT was trying to do the right thing...but the wrong way. His heart was in the right place, no one can deny that (since he would have used the money for himself otherwise). However, when you are feeling the weight of the world due to the care of the churches and trying to keep key elements afloat, and someone comes claiming you are acting in a perhaps criminal manner, it's a better man than most of us who would not be angry and resist that. If AJT had acted differently, perhaps we'd never have parted. Or if those men who knew AJT's godly lifestyle had not believed the worst about him, perhaps we'd all still be together.
History is interpretation. And I simply prefer Conn's interpretation, because, I, too, believe the COG is the best denomination on earth. Those who think we are just like any other denomination, they are going to see things differently. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/23/22 9:31 pm
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| Again, I would say ... |
Mat |
Again, I would say that Conn wrote his first edition based on a one-sided account and not considering the actions of Lee/Lewellyn/Lemons, especially when it came to the incomplete audit of AJT and their instigating the court actions.
One interesting aspect of the court cases was to create thousands of pages of court records, which was one of the primary sources of Dr. Hudson. It is those records which cleared AJT of any financial wrong doing.
I have written in the past, there needs to be a reconciliation between the COG and COGOP, which means a willingness to first examine our own take on history. In just a week or so we will be in 2023, the 100 year anniversary of the 1923 Split, and while I had hoped there would be some willingness to at least study the issues and gain understanding of what happened, I have found that many (including leadership) in both denominations are resistant to such an endeavor.
One last point on the subject, I have only read Conn's first edition (1955 - which was the year I was born), and I understand with each new edition he moderated his take on AJT. Perhaps if he were alive he might release a newer edition, but in his absence, and perhaps with time more academic freedom to write about the movement's history, we will gain new perspective. I am convinced there are generations which must die off before any reconciliation took place, as the split hardened so many to the call God's call for unity in the Body. Both sides sang, "The Church of God is right, halleluiah to the Lamb" and I have found they can have a spirit of judgement and condemnation. This has been the "cancer" of the Church of God Movement.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
12/24/22 7:12 am
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