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Item III - Women in Leadership

 
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Post Item III - Women in Leadership MayB2Day
The proposed change reads thusly:

Quote:
The International General Council is composed of all ordained bishops of the Church of God and General Council - certified female ordained ministers who have fulfilled the same age requirements, experience and equivalent testing of the ordained bishop credentials as contained in S22. ORDAINED BISHOP, II., Qualifications of Ordained Bishops, who shall comprise its voting constituency.


My question is with the equivalent testing part.

Do OBs and OMs take the same test?
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7/8/22 11:43 am


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Post Re: Item III - Women in Leadership Carolyn Smith
MayB2Day wrote:
The proposed change reads thusly:

Quote:
The International General Council is composed of all ordained bishops of the Church of God and General Council - certified female ordained ministers who have fulfilled the same age requirements, experience and equivalent testing of the ordained bishop credentials as contained in S22. ORDAINED BISHOP, II., Qualifications of Ordained Bishops, who shall comprise its voting constituency.


My question is with the equivalent testing part.

Do OBs and OMs take the same test?


I am pretty sure they are different. I took this to mean that certified female ordained ministers would have to take and pass the OB test, but they would not become OBs. They would be qualified to be an OB but not become an OB in title.
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7/8/22 2:26 pm


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Post georgiapath
Why don't they just say what they mean. Seems like it would be so simple. Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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7/9/22 7:43 pm


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Post Expanded version of this motion through the years? uthdude2000
Did anyone here also receive the long text with the expansion of this motion through the years? One peculiar point of over or rather under-thinking reads:

It is understood that the provisions applying to a Bishop’s wife (see S22. ORDAINED BISHOP, II., Qualifications of Ordained Bishops, 7., page 103) would in like manner similarly apply to the husband of a General Council-certified female ordained minister.

How would the husband of a GCCFOM fulfil the duties and obligations of a bishop's wife may need some further clarification...
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7/25/22 3:53 pm


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Post RE: Rick Metzgar Jr
Women need a real voice. It's about TIME! Golf Cart Mafia Associate
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7/27/22 3:49 pm


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Post Carolyn Smith
Voted down again. Rolling Eyes
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7/27/22 8:47 pm


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Post Very disappointed Rick Metzgar Jr
So very disappointed in the denomination I was raised in. Yesterday, when given the opportunity finally give women a vote in their denomination as well as full ordination of the office of "Bishop", they shot it down. It's stunning to me in this day and age that there's still women's suffrage. Women earned the right to vote in 1920, yet, in mainline denominations in our nation, they are still restricted to vote. They truly have no voice. Golf Cart Mafia Associate
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7/28/22 9:01 am


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Post One Place to Place the Blame - Only One FG Minister
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7/28/22 3:40 pm


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Post FG Minister...AAAAAA...MEN! Aaron Scott
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7/28/22 6:56 pm


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Post Carolyn Smith
If women should keep silence in the church, why do the books of Joel and Acts say that your sons and daughters shall prophesy?

Why does the Word say there is no male nor female?

Why does God call women to preach?

If you're right, the COG messed up from the very beginning when they allowed women to preach and pastor. There are many, many COGs that would not exist if not for women pastors.

What about women like Diane Collins, one of the best evangelists I've ever heard? She had a mother's heart and anointing and could minister healing to wounded souls. But she preached with fire and anointing!

Holy Ghost filled women should be allowed to walk in their callings - and they can - but they can't vote. Why don't we just be honest that it's all about giving them the ability to vote?

What's happening at the GA is having a seriously negative effect on our young women that have a call on their lives. I read about 2 pastors' daughters who are ready to leave the COG because of the hurtful comments and hurt inflicted on them this week. How sad that we would damage our kids like this.

We've already lost one generation to the world. We cannot afford to lose another one.
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7/28/22 9:22 pm


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Post The Danger Here FG Minister
Women are called to prophesy. We know that from the Bible. But pastor? A pastor has to be an elder and elders are men, according to my Bible. This is just not a role women are to fill. The danger here is developing policy or theology, based upon experience. Experientially there may have been some women preachers who "wowed" people. There may have been very good women who were gifted speakers. But we don't build theology on our experiences, we build it on the scripture.

I heard one brother at this year's GA say "if it hadn't been for women, there is no telling where the COG would be today." He supported the amendment to advance women. But here's the problem - while that statement is certainly true, that experience does not change the fact that women are not allowed to pastor or be bishops.

I Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

God, through the apostle Paul, restricts women from serving in roles of teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors over men, which definitely includes preaching to them, teaching them publicly, and exercising spiritual authority over them.
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7/29/22 10:25 am


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Post Carolyn... Aaron Scott
I want to be clear that I DO NOT BELIEVE that a woman must keep silence in church. That may have been Paul's Jewish feelings creeping in...it may have been for a particular situation, etc. But we certainly do not believe it LITERALLY.

We allow women to testify, sing, teach Sunday School, praise the Lord aloud, etc. So we already do not adhere to any strict observance of women keeping silent.

It's true that I do not believe women should be in leadership in the Church of God (unless they are a pastor, in which case they are a leader of that church). This is not because I think men are smarter, but because, for whatever reason, God chose to place men over the home, over the nation, over the priesthood, and over the church.

I don't know why, although I don't think it was arbitrary. It MAY be--Notice I said MAY BE!--that because women tend to stay upset longer when they are wronged, it would be an issue for the church. Men are not superior at all to women, but, well, yeah, we do tend to let things go a bit easier (just remember grade school and how two boys who got in a fight were best friends the next day...but two girls who got into it were enemies for live, it seems).

I wouldn't lose any sleep if women were in charge. However, I know there is no scriptural mandate for it, and I know that the example of scriptures is weighted VERY, VERY HEAVILY in favor of male-centric leadership. I wouldn't want to be someone who failed to err on the side of caution just to appease the world or some well-meaning person.
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7/29/22 3:16 pm


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Post THE LOVE OF GOD
If women are called to preach and I believe they are, why not just do what God called them to do. Why do they need to desire to be an Ordained Bishop? Why do they need to advance to be an OB? Preach and do what God called them to do. Win souls. It is not also an advancement that they should be looking for. Abide in their calling. Same thing can apply to a man. I know someone has to be a Gen. Overseer and other official jobs but it seems like some of them are there to get recognized and advance. SMH Friendly Face
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7/29/22 9:44 pm


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Post FLRon
Seems to me the cog is once again promoting their brand of double-speak.

The organization trusts a woman to hear from God in order to preach the word of God. There is (obviously) a tremendous amount of trust placed in a woman to place her in the position of pastor, where she will need to hear from God on a daily basis.

Yet the ‘boys’ cannot believe that this same woman can hear from God in order to make leadership decisions at the denominational level? Instead the ‘boys’ pull out their trump card of 1st Timothy 2:12?

Imagine if the roles were reversed. How much effort do you suppose the ‘boys ‘ would exert to prove that while Paul’s instructions were certainly applicable to 1st century society, what Paul said isn’t relevant in a world where women have access to the same level of education their male counterparts do?

Truthfully I can’t imagine why any woman would consider aligning herself with the cog, especially given the fact that the AoG will grant her full status.
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7/30/22 3:23 pm


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Post Notice the Context of the Verse FG Minister
In the area of having authority over men, she is to be silent. She is not to be silent in singing, teaching women and children, or in testifying. She is to be quiet when it comes to exercising authority over men.

Women are no less important than men are. Who would ever believe something foolish like that in 2022? We just have different roles. I can't have a baby - but a woman can. I can't be motherly to children, but a woman can. My wife is my best advisor and I rely on her. But for some reason, unbeknownst to me, God determined that men are to lead the church.

As one poster mentioned, the "boys in Cleveland" should defer to women and allow them to be bishops. Guess what - it's not up to the "boys in Cleveland!" It's up to the Bible! And on this issue, it's perfectly clear. Listen - there are lots of things in the Bible I don't like. Being good to my enemies is one of them. But I accept God's word for what it is. It is my roadmap home.
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7/31/22 7:08 am


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Post macgulley
I'll confess to not knowing how the church handles the ordination of bishops so I'd like to ask those who do know. I'm interested to know if all the qualifications for bishop in Timothy are equally enforced and how they're defined.
"Husband of one wife" - are widowers excluded? divorcees (single or remarried)?
The next several should be a given but what about "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;"? Does one lose his bishop status if he's not a good parent (or if he is a good parent but his children rebel)?
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8/4/22 11:41 am


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
macgulley wrote:
what about "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;"?


Well, mac, heres the deal son. When the ole timer was a growin up an all, we was in subjection with all gravity. Cause poppa took a stick and knocked us upside the head, and the law a gravity brought us back down to the ground. So yea, that part a bishopin is in order.
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8/4/22 1:47 pm


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Post Re: Notice the Context of the Verse Carolyn Smith
FG Minister wrote:
In the area of having authority over men, she is to be silent. She is not to be silent in singing, teaching women and children, or in testifying. She is to be quiet when it comes to exercising authority over men.

Women are no less important than men are. Who would ever believe something foolish like that in 2022? We just have different roles. I can't have a baby - but a woman can. I can't be motherly to children, but a woman can. My wife is my best advisor and I rely on her. But for some reason, unbeknownst to me, God determined that men are to lead the church.

As one poster mentioned, the "boys in Cleveland" should defer to women and allow them to be bishops. Guess what - it's not up to the "boys in Cleveland!" It's up to the Bible! And on this issue, it's perfectly clear. Listen - there are lots of things in the Bible I don't like. Being good to my enemies is one of them. But I accept God's word for what it is. It is my roadmap home.


That is really not what the scripture says about women keeping silent. 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35 says nothing about authority. And actually, I've never noticed this before, but if you put it in context with the scripture before it, it's talking about men keeping silence as well, about tongues & interpretation and order in the church.

26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for [h]edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of [i]confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
34 Let [j]your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

It seems to me this entire passage is about keeping order in the church. And the "they are not permitted to speak" seems to refer to the cultural rules of the day. I've always heard that this passage has to do with the fact that men and women sat on different sides of the synagogue in that day, so if a woman was to speak up during the service to ask her husband (on the other side of the room) a question, it would disrupt the service.

It would also be interesting to know where the Law said that women were to be submissive. (Not disagreeing that women should be submissive, but I don't recall that being in the Law in the OT.)

Or perhaps you are referring to 1 Timothy 2:12, "And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence." This is the same verse that says "usurp authority" in the KJV. The word "usurp" means to "take (a position of power or importance) illegally or by force." I would interpret "usurping authority" to mean that would be if a woman was trying to take over the service. But if the COG has given her authority as a pastor or the church has given her authority to teach, that would not be usurping authority or taking the position illegally. It would be operating under the denomination's authority or the pastor's authority.
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8/4/22 9:54 pm


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Post Carolyn Smith
From what I've seen posted on FB, there are quite a few women who are ordained that don't necessarily want to be a bishop. I really don't think they are the ones who are driving this issue. I believe it is in the executive leadership of the COG who believe that women should be given this opportunity, to have a voice in the GC.

I've also seen where many women have felt demeaned by the discussion that's happened re: this issue, which has now been going on for 20+ years on an international level. Some of the comments made publicly have been very unkind and disrespectful. If this discussion could be kept to the Word and the decision at hand without wandering off into personal opinions and comments, it would help a lot.

I commented about this on FB and was told by one person that all of the discussions were done in a tasteful way, but I read of many women saying they were heartbroken by the comments or they were "cut to the quick," not to mention young women hearing the discussions feeling that there was no place for them in the COG. It's really sad this is taking place. There has to be a better way to handle all of this.
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8/4/22 10:05 pm


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