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Looking with lust, or porn use, as grounds for divorce.

 
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Post Looking with lust, or porn use, as grounds for divorce. Link
I had a conversation with a brother who'd divorced, and said occasionally he fell into porn use every so many months. So he figured he needed to marry. He married a divorced woman. She had divorced after she caught her husband looking at porn four times. Her pastor thought she had Biblical grounds.

I also know another man whose wife cut him off from copulation for a long time, maybe a year or two. He smoked pot and viewed porn. Maybe she cut him off over the pot and porn. Maybe he went to porn after being cut off. Maybe one reinforced the other. I don't know. She seemed to not like him that much, anyway. He was afraid if he went to a counselor, the counselor would say to divorce him. He went to a pastor who told her she had Biblical grounds to divorce him.

I want to say that porn use is a huge social ill permeating our society. I turned on the TV several years ago and saw a comedian talking about porn movies. The audience laughed as if they all knew what he was talking about. When Palin was nominated for the VP nomination, Atheist smart alec comedian.... if that is what he is... Bill Maher made comments about how she looked like a librarian out of porn films. Apparently, his audience knew what he was talking about.

I read recently that some huge number of young women in Britain had experienced violence in the bedroom-- maybe a third, and some of them were choked. Men apparently are watching violent, rough porn, and choking was apparently the new thing.

There are married men addicted to porn, who watch it, take care of their own tensions, and leave their wives neglected and desirous. That might seem really counter-intuitive. But apparently porn can really hurt a couples sex life, not just the imitation of violence, but also even the frequency of it.

So it's some nasty damaging stuff, but is it wise, or Biblical, for pastors to advise wives to divorce over porn, or vice versa. There is some large portion of porn viewers (30 or 40ish percent as I recall) who are women.

The rationale for it is that Jesus said that if a man puts away his wife, except it be for fornication, he commits adultery, and he that marries her that is divorced commits adultery. 'Fornication' there translates 'porneia' which sounds a lot like our English word 'porn' and is related etymologically. And Matthew 5 says he that looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The Bible also says that man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. The Bible speaks of two becoming one flesh. It doesn't say two become one heart. Is it right to advise divorce over sins of the heart? Is this really a domain of sin that justifies divorce. There are many sins that could make one deserving of Hell that are not grounds for divorce?

I noticed that Matthew 5 also associates murder with speaking angry (without cause) words like 'Thou fool' or 'raca.' I John says he that hates his brother is a murderer and the truth is not in him. Is advising divorce over lust in the heart akin to advocating the death penalty for saying hateful words?

Couldn't one argue that if your wife or husband calls you a fool, that this is akin to murder, and if you were really murdered, you'd be dead, not not married anymore... and therefore you are free to remarry? This sort of thing sounds like the legal wranglings of the Pharisees arguing over vows like Jesus alluded to in the New Testament. But is it much different from the argument that porn use is grounds for divorce?

Looking at porn isn't the deadly sin here. Christians shouldn't look at it. But the sin is actually looking in order to lust. The sin is coveting. Theoretically, someone might be able to view porn without sinning. If someone teen in high school sticks a porn magazine in front of a Christian teens face and asks if she's hot, the Christian teen didn't have a choice. He saw it, but he could look elsewhere or close his eyes.

One could also look with lust at people in bikinis in the beach. Men could even lust after women in bell dresses. They say some of the Arab men will get excited if they see a woman's ankle protruding out of her burka.

If pastors should advise divorce and remarriage over porn use, how about advising divorce to a man whose wife said the waiter had a cute butt? How about advising divorce for the wife of a man who stared at the pretty waitress a little too long? Could advising divorce in this case be encouraging adulterous remarriages? Couldn't it break up families and put kids in one-parent homes?
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6/30/22 11:34 am


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No takers, huh? Not a single reply? Acts-perienced Poster
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7/3/22 4:21 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
I would advise divorce if the husband was found to be unrepentantly watching child pornography.

I would advise the husband who watches adult porn to repent (change his mind) and be saved and the wife to make sure she is fulfilling her marital duty and not withholding sex from her husband. 1 Cor 7:1-5 is quite practical in its godly wisdom regarding sex and marriage.

In my view, divorce is permissible if there is actual physical adultery that has occurred, not just adultery in the heart, though to be sure, adultery in the heart is a very serious, damnation-deserving sin.

I once had a lady in my church who told me she thought divorce was justified in her case because her husband “had a lust problem, and looked lustfully at other women.” Upon further questioning, she admitted that she had cut him off and had not given him sex very much at all for an extended time.

I pointed out that her situation was very much like Paul described in 1 Cor 7, where depriving one another of sex in the marital relationship leads to aggravated susceptibility to sexual temptation. I told her God made them both, male and female, as sexual beings meant to have sex within God’s specific boundaries, which are marriage of a man to a woman. I further told her it was a sin to withhold sex from one’s spouse for an extended time. I further added that there is no normal man who is not tempted and who does not notice an attractive woman and have at least momentary sexual thoughts, but that if his sexual needs have been being met in the marriage bed which is undefiled, he will find that with the Lord’s help, he will be able to resist temptation and not be ruled by lust.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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7/3/22 4:50 pm


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Quiet Wyatt wrote:
I would advise divorce if the husband was found to be unrepentantly watching child pornography.


You could probably have him thrown in prison. What about something that is a temptation to a larger segment of the population, pictures of naked women and such? Would you advise divorce over something less stigmatized by mainstream society? If you treat them differently as far as divorce goes, why... I mean as far as Biblical interpretation goes.

I would be suspicious of those who view child porn. I wouldn't want them around children. I read a post from a prison chaplain who knew many inmates in prison for viewing child porn, including some preachers who were quite ashamed of it. That's shocking. I asked if it were just men with porn problems who had a picture of a 17-year-old who looked grown, and he said no. Biblically, though, what is the difference in the sin between that and viewing pictures of naked women or women in bikinis to lust... aside from supporting more damage to 'little ones' by supporting the industry?

Quote:

I would advise the husband who watches adult porn to repent (change his mind) and be saved and the wife to make sure she is fulfilling her marital duty and not withholding sex from her husband. 1 Cor 7:1-5 is quite practical in its godly wisdom regarding sex and marriage.

In my view, divorce is permissible if there is actual physical adultery that has occurred, not just adultery in the heart, though to be sure, adultery in the heart is a very serious, damnation-deserving sin.


What about the child porn then if there is no physical adultery? Is the divorce recommendation you would give for some kind of personal safety for her or the kids?

Quote:

I once had a lady in my church who told me she thought divorce was justified in her case because her husband “had a lust problem, and looked lustfully at other women.” Upon further questioning, she admitted that she had cut him off and had not given him sex very much at all for an extended time.

I pointed out that her situation was very much like Paul described in 1 Cor 7, where depriving one another of sex in the marital relationship leads to aggravated susceptibility to sexual temptation. I told her God made them both, male and female, as sexual beings meant to have sex within God’s specific boundaries, which are marriage of a man to a woman. I further told her it was a sin to withhold sex from one’s spouse for an extended time. I further added that there is no normal man who is not tempted and who does not notice an attractive woman and have at least momentary sexual thoughts, but that if his sexual needs have been being met in the marriage bed which is undefiled, he will find that with the Lord’s help, he will be able to resist temptation and not be ruled by lust.


We are all responsible for our own actions. If a wife cuts her husband off, she is responsible for her wrongdoing. He may be more susceptible to temptation, but he is responsible if he chooses to give in to it. [/quote]

I work on a college campus and I overheard some of the training for student workers about consent. "Is it okay if I put my hand here?" -- describing how you could get consent for each step of a seduction basically. I notice the narrative around the concepts of rape, consent, sexual assault are being defined within a fornicator culture. They think fornication is okay, and the issue becomes how to keep the college boys from having sex with the college girls when they are too drunk to legally consent. That's the extent of the morality... that and use a condom.

There are a lot of voices out there saying if he touches you, etc. without your consent that is an assault, that you have a right to your own body, etc. Then they don't hear when you get married, you have an obligation to meet your spouse' sexual needs.

While the world makes dirty sex jokes and talks and jokes boldly about sex, many in the church confuse Victorian sexual mores about not discussing sex with Biblical morality. The Torah was supposed to be read every seven years to all ages, little babies, toddlers, curious 9-year-olds with their parents and grandparents present. The law talks about menstruation, circumcision, not committing adultery and various vile sexual acts. It's a lot of material that violates Victorian social mores. I hear within Judaism, those who are falsely called rabbis (a title reserved for the Messiah), are asked and answer detailed questions about sexuality, menstruation, etc.

Rarely have I heard some aspects of I Corinthians 7 addressed in the church. I do hear occasional references to porn. Statistics show that it is a huge problem, even among church goers.
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7/5/22 11:14 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
The reason I think divorce would be permissible in cases when someone is viewing child porn is the unconscionably aggravated perversion involved in such. Any children in such a household would be in grave danger from such a sick individual. A major distinction between adult porn and child porn is the adults are able to give consent to it, while children are by definition not able to consent, and are being horrendously abused against their will.

I agree such sick perverts should go to prison, though the prison terms for these crimes are far too lenient in my view. I think they should be hanged by the neck until dead in the town square, but unfortunately that is highly unlikely in modern society.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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7/6/22 1:02 pm


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Quiet Wyatt wrote:

I agree such sick perverts should go to prison, though the prison terms for these crimes are far too lenient in my view. I think they should be hanged by the neck until dead in the town square, but unfortunately that is highly unlikely in modern society.


My objection to that would be that it is not listed as a death penalty crime in the Old Testament. In some cases, acting on it could be. But I understand and can relate to the emotion behind your statement.

Does your statement apply if it is one of those "Oops, I thought the girl was 18 instead of 17 cases." Viewing only of course.

The women involved in porn could also be victims, or have been victims in their youth and ended up in that lifestyle. I heard a testimony from a woman who didn't get along well with her father who was kicked out of the house when she turned 18, was propositioned in exchange for cash while she was starving and accepted, and ended up doing porn eventually. Then she got saved and got out of it.
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7/7/22 6:55 pm


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Post I'm not sure how to handle this one.... Aaron Scott
Jesus said if you look at a woman to lust, then you've already committed adultery with her in your heart. But would any of us think that a woman was justified in divorcing her husband because he admitted that he had looked on another woman lustfully?

I don't think we'd believe that was acceptable.

Yes, it is indeed an issue/sin with God, but with man, we tend to require actual adultery--not just symbolic adultery (i.e., adultery of the heart).

HOWEVER, I would imagine that if a man is so caught up in lusting after other women (which would seem to be the very point of pornography), there may be a tipping point where the woman would have some justification. For instance, if such activity is robbing her of her husbands attentions, that may be an issue. Or if it is otherwise damaging or endangering the relationship.

I don't make any doctrine of that, but I will say I don't think that it is--at least initially--grounds for divorce.
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7/19/22 10:33 am


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Post Re: I'm not sure how to handle this one.... Link
Aaron Scott wrote:
HOWEVER, I would imagine that if a man is so caught up in lusting after other women (which would seem to be the very point of pornography), there may be a tipping point where the woman would have some justification. For instance, if such activity is robbing her of her husbands attentions, that may be an issue. Or if it is otherwise damaging or endangering the relationship.


That's actually a thing, porn addiction that leads to a husband depriving his wife. The men 'take care of themselves' and don't touch their wives. That seems counter-intuitive. You'd think a porn addict would be all revved up and their wives would be overwhelmed.
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7/25/22 12:21 pm


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