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The Pastor's Frustration

 
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Post The Pastor's Frustration Cojak
I have already modified this, I wrote too much. I have heard many times in the last few years, "It is the sheep that give birth to new ones for a pastor to nourish and feed, it is not the pastor's job to bring new sheep into his fold!

What about many of our churches who support a pastor, but are old. The old sheep barely can make it to church, 2-3 times a week. We have churches once large, that are still paying a pastor from reserves and it is still going down. Is it still the pastor's job to sit in an office and wait for new sheep to be born?

In reality THAT is not going to happen. Beating the old sheep that are left, ain't gonna produce new borns.
SO, my question is how do you get new sheep?

I already know several of the old sheep who are looking for a new fold to join and it hurts. We are traveling members and are seldom in our local church but do send all of our support financially to our home church. This situation is NOT unique we visit them all over the south. COG, COGOP, AOG and Congregational.
I just read that one large church is selling the church building and will exist only on line. Now that will definitely lose some old folk who cannot do techy stuff. :-O Shocked
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2/21/22 10:42 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
I've heard the same quote - and see firsthand the dwindling of churches with no vision or outreach.

I think I would take a part-time job as a greeter at Wal-Mart before I let it dwindle away to nothing - (at least I would meet a lot of people - and who knows - perhaps invite them to church)

But what do you do - fire those guys and get someone else in there? That's what a business entity would do that wanted to survive - but overseers are mostly overseers of the pastors of their state - they aren't going to do that. And we have a model that doesn't really allow any change/firing when the wrong guy - or the unwilling to work guy - is pastor.

Also - some churches are locked into a place that is no longer a viable place for a neighborhood church. How do you solve that? Property values are sky high right now - sell some of them and plant new ones? ...but then the overseer is accused of stealing a church.

It seems this is a problem with no actual solution available. I certainly don't know of one.

<sigh>
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2/22/22 8:09 am


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Post FLRon
Our church is also made up of predominantly older saints, several of whom have adopted the unhealthy mindset that “I’ve done my time now it’s the next generation’s turn”. Very few of them invite people to church, believing that to be part of the Pastors responsibilities.

I have concluded that unless we have a major attitude shift back to personal accountability, we will cease to exist in a decade or so. We do a lot of things in our church to bring visitors in and we are doing pretty well at that. The problem we have is that most don’t stick around because they are looking for a younger crowd with newer music etc. There is no perfect answer so we keep trying hoping to turn the tide.
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2/22/22 8:16 am


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Post Cojak
FL I do agree with part of this statement 100% when you said:

The problem we have is that most don’t stick around because they are looking for a younger crowd with newer music etc.

Younger Christian families are looking for a place where there are other kids to mingle and be with. But the music part I am not too sure of. Many of the MEGA churches still have a choir and use traditional music. They are very well received.

I do think music moved some people, but I think more people were lost by the shepherd, because he would not go looking for that one. Just my opinion...

In the COG you would have been blind not to see the pastors who 'split' most churches they pastored because of an attitude, 'my way or the highway'. Not interested in praying with, or seeking some kind of compassionate answer. Again my opinion. Crying or Very sad
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2/22/22 11:04 am


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Post Many reasons why, but the same results. Mat
There are many reasons why, which have been shared already, but the results are the same. Dwindling and aging church members, who meet in a building they sacrificed to build forty years ago. Their children and grand children have stopped coming and if they are going to church, the grandparents long to be with them, no matter what the music or style of church.

Many of us have set through seminars, or at least read the books of John Maxwell. As he says, "Everything rises and falls on leadership," or something along those lines. If you have an aging ministry who have fought their "battles" make their sacrifices and given their all to build churches and congregations, that might be a problem (I may be speaking of myself, Lord help me!). We just want to get to retirement without another mountain to climb.

I will point to one source who said a church should move its location every 20 to 30 years, perhaps to the newer communities where your people and new people are moving (but that sounds like a lot of work and struggle with members).

Finally, denominations develop a culture, and culture keeps you cornered. It you only developed well educated ministers, they often look for positions which with "packages" that match their knowledge (experience seems to be trumped by education now a days). Gone are the days when those called to the ministry would leave their family, hometown and jobs to plant a church where they knew there was a need (this was common culture in the Pentecostal Movement up until a generation ago).

However, members have developed expectation of experience, in that they want their church experience to be more "macro" than "micro." They want the bells and whistles of a large/mega church with less individual accountability. I blame Disney for the church being a theme park for the lukewarm (the mouse never died for anybody's soul to be saved, his eye is on your wallet and he's watching you).

Mat
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2/22/22 11:38 am


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Post Cojak
I have appreciated ALL the comments here and they do represent true situations, BUT from the last comment:

However, members have developed expectation of experience, in that they want their church experience to be more "macro" than "micro." They want the bells and whistles of a large/mega church with less individual accountability. I blame Disney for the church being a theme park for the lukewarm (the mouse never died for anybody's soul to be saved, his eye is on your wallet and he's watching you).

Mat ..............

Lot of truth jumps out of that statement.
Cool

Also the caring LEADERSHIP of the Shepherd counts. Smile
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2/22/22 12:51 pm


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Post skinnybishop
I think WAY too much is expected of pastors, in terms of building and maintaining a congregation. They have most of the responsibility, but almost none of the control.

"Our numbers are dwindling pastor, what are you doing about it?"

I can't tell you how often I've been asked why, a certain family isn't coming to church. "Have you called and checked on them?".

Yeah, I have. And they don't answer the phone. They don't return my calls. They don't answer my texts, or emails.

Or they tell me flat out, "We'll be there when we can. We are really busy with camping, travel ball, and dance competitions".


Pastors can't fix priorities.

It bugs me when people suggest that pastors aren't doing enough, when people don't come....or they leave the church.... for reasons that are outside of a ministers control.

"We go camping and to ball games on weekends" (what am I supposed to do about that?)

"My feelings are hurt, but I'm not going to tell you why" (again, what do I do with that?)

"Not enough people wear masks". (Sorry, I can't force people to do that)

"You don't have a choir". (I'm sorry, but not enough people would come to practice, to have a full choir)

"I want a better children's/youth program for my kids" (Well, we are doing the best we can here. We have limited volunteers. We have limited resources. I'm sorry that there was only 8 teens in youth group tonight, but I don't control who shows up, and who doesn't)

"We left because your church isn't Pentecostal enough"

[/b]Well, I don't control Pentecost, or the Holy Spirit. Not sure what I can do about that
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2/23/22 8:56 am


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Post Cojak
skinnybishop wrote:
I think WAY too much is expected of pastors, in terms of building and maintaining a congregation. ...................

It bugs me when people suggest that pastors aren't doing enough, when people don't come....or they leave the church.... for reasons that are outside of a ministers control.

"We go camping and to ball games on weekends" (what am I supposed to do about that?)

"My feelings are hurt, but I'm not going to tell you why" (again, what do I do with that?)

"Not enough people wear masks". (Sorry, I can't force people to do that)

"You don't have a choir". (I'm sorry, but not enough people would come to practice, to have a full choir)

"I want a better children's/youth program for my kids" (Well, we are doing the best we can here. We have limited volunteers. We have limited resources. I'm sorry that there was only 8 teens in youth group tonight, but I don't control who shows up, and who doesn't)

"We left because your church isn't Pentecostal enough"

[/b]Well, I don't control Pentecost, or the Holy Spirit. Not sure what I can do about that


SB, I have admired and enjoyed your comments and posts. I also agree with the many 'EXCUSES' given for not attending their home church. However most excuses are just that. SOME of the time that is given to a pastor or boss man on a job is that he/she cannot handle the truth and will find someway to make a cut to the congregation or other workers. THAT is a fact. I have been a witness.

But, but are we to then just throw up our hands and say, SO BE IT!

I do disagree with the one thing you said about choirs. I know it is a fact about our own choir a few years back. WE had a GREAT CHOIR people would stand outside just to listen. BUT then we hired a CHoir director who REQUIRED attendance at practice. If you did not attend practice you did not sing at the next service. Within 6 months we had a 'Praise group of 4, within a year we had a praise group of 2, now we have a guitar player who sings.

I am NOT saying the REQUIREMENTS by a director sunk all the singing, there were many other factors of course as always. I am saying we sang without forced practices for many years, because COG folks loved to worship in singing. COG singing was considered the best, it was spirit filled.

Now that I have that off my chest. Is there an answer? I don't have much reason to complain since we live in a motorhome and move around the USA a lot.

While I am fussing, In my youth congreations in the COG stood when they wanted to give praise or join the choir in singing and sat after standing to join in praise. Then we went thru a period of not knowing when to stand and sit. Now we sit until told to stand and STAND until we are told to sit. Yep silly ain't it?

We re glad our home services are on FAcebook so we can stay in contact that way. WE have a variety of services. SOME have crowds some are 10-15.

We all know if there was a simple answer all our churches would be full. BUT a few have found the answer. For sure most of us who sit in pews do not know the answer.
BUT in most cases we need good advisors and leaders. WE are all sheep out here..... However some are stubborn (BUT NOT ALL) Shocked Cool
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2/23/22 11:16 am


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Post How I Have Come to See It... Aaron Scott
It is EVERYONE'S job to try to bring in new sheep. It so happens, though, that the pastor has an ADDITIONAL job--that of feeding and shepherding the sheep. In a sense, everyone in a congregation is responsible for the church. It seems quite foolish for a sailor to let a ship sink because of something that "wasn't my job."

HOWEVER, there are additional considerations....

Like neighborhoods, churches have lifespans. What used to be the up-and-coming side of town eventually will become older, worn, and the such, while other areas are now doing most of the growing. I have never heard of the need to MOVE a church every so often, but that actually makes sense!

It has been my thinking that a church must "renew" itself in some way--it may be a new pastor, a building program, an outreach program, etc., but doing so keeps it on the radar. North Cleveland, along with having its traditional attractiveness to nearby Lee students and COG leadership, has also upgraded its facilities every 20 years or so, since the 1970s (maybe earlier), I believe.

But there's still more to it....

Churches, over time, can get a "reputation." All it takes is one pastor to tarnish a church's image. In some cases, however, it has to do with the traditional "hardness" that we holiness folks exhibited back in the day. People were hurt and run off, and that gets around.

If a pastor has a moral failure, that often gets around, and that damages the church's reputation.

Add to that the fact that not only do churches have lifespans, so do towns/areas. There are places that used to exist that don't even show up on a map any longer...or have just been swallowed up by a larger city. When places change, people often move on for any number of reasons: Jobs, to be closer to the children/parents, to move to another better part of the city, to get away from higher crime rates, etc. And that church that is still there often gets left behind (which is a good argument for moving every so often).

Also, people age. As they get older, they cannot do all they used to do. They may now be on fixed incomes. On and on. And a church loses what I call "critical mass." To simply that, I simply mean that it's not enough to have a match. You must also have something to strike it on. You must also have something available to set fire to. if any of these are missing....

And because of a lack of critical mass, church programs/ministries begin to fade, attendance begins to fade because they don't have available the things that people would want (e.g., a good Youth Group), the congregation's average age is older, this, in turn, affects the sort of music that might be played, affects that number and/or quality of the music program, income, etc.

In my small neck of the woods--Jasper, FL--we have three good Churches of God in our county. Ideally, we would merge, since we all kind of lean the same way and love each other. But the problem is that these churches are a minimum of 10 miles away from each other, and that almost certainly ensures that, no matter where we merged to, there would be a number of people who simply would not travel that far.


This also creates problems in areas like...who will be the pianist, who will lead the choir, who will teach the adult Sunday School, which pastor will be the head pastor? Even though there is love among our three churches, I imagine that there would still be some fitting issues. Pastors can do things differently, and that can create some friction.

Ideally, if the other facilities were sold, this would enable one the newly-merged church to have significant fund for the future.

Ultimately, I think the claim that it's the congregation's job to bring in sheep MAY BE either an attempt to "inspire" others to get busy...or to somehow justify a pastor's failure to bring in more sheep. But I trust that the above demonstrates that even great pastors can land in places that just have too much against it to do all they would want done.
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2/23/22 11:49 am


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Post Cojak
Thanks Bro. Aaron. You covered a lot of bases and used logic. Of course some thoughts I did not think of in this post. I am definitely no authority on the subject. I did want to say you stated a fact with this: But I trust that the above demonstrates that even great pastors can land in places that just have too much against it to do all they would want done................
A former State overseer took the church close to here in Leesburg a few years back. It was disbanded and now a Baptist church.
Combining churches is an up hill climb, but it looks like Wildwood COGs are doing well after a merger.

Un fortunate incident occurred at the N Belmont COG (NC) It was growing with a nice youth group and sunk when the Youth pastor was convicted for molesting. That caused a merger of the two Belmont Churches, we are hoping that the merger there will work, however that is senior folks mostly also.

I am enjoying reading pastor's thoughts here, I know laymen and pastors are many times at a loss at what to do. Crying or Very sad
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2/23/22 4:53 pm


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Post Its easier... 4thgeneration
It always seems easier to find somewhere or someone on which to fix the blame, than it is to find understanding, and develop solutions to the situations we face. I think we feel that pointing a finger of blame frees us of the feeling of responsibility for what is, and removes us from the list of those who need to do something about it. So we blame. And nothing good comes from it.

Early on as Covid was ravaging our nation and world, and as communities and churches were shut down for an extended of time, I participated in Zoom meetings where the issues we were facing were discussed. We were told back then (Spring/Summer of 2020) that an extended season of shut down would likely result in a loss of 30% of our pre-covid congregation. For most of the pastors I know, they were right, if not low in their estimate. Some people aged out, becoming too old or physically unable to return to in-house services. Some people chose not to utilize the different methods offered to stay connected to their church during the shut down time. Weeks became months, and for some, now years, and they disconnected from church. At first they answered with, "we are just trying to stay out of environments that put us at risk for covid." But at this point, they mostly just admit that they have gotten out of the habit, and are struggling to get back in. And some saw the opportunity to graze in new/other pastures, and have moved on.

Who/what is to blame? Everyone. Life. An uncontrollable, extended situation. Imperfect responses to an unpredictable, drastically and constantly shifting environment. Life... Everyone...

Should pastors be engaged in the growth of the church? Absolutely! Should members be engaged in the growth of the church? Absolutely! Should everyone in the church embrace the responsibility of the church being a place where people feel welcomed and wanted? Absolutely!

But the reality is, some have simply chosen not to return. And our lead team decided at some point in the journey, to focus our efforts and energy on opportunities for growth through visitors that show up, through ministries that reach out, and through providing focus and care to those who attend. We decided that to continue to try to find some method that would bring back those who have not returned (for whatever reason) is to not make the best use of our ministry resources. They know, because we have told them, they are wanted and welcome. But our focus has become ministering to those searching, needing, and wanting what the church has to offer through its ministries.

Maybe you could say we kicked the dust off our shoes. I prefer to think that we decided to do ministry that is productive and effective. And we are seeing the positive results (spiritual and numerical) of that refocus.

Just my O!
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2/24/22 1:30 pm


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Post It's on the Preacher FG Minister
When I was in seminary, a professor said "to grow a church you will have to win people to yourself first, then they will consider your church." I didn't like that idea, but it's true. If they don't like the preaching, the way I conduct a service, the way I interact with them - they won't be back. People don't choose churches based on denomination like they used to. They evaluate the ministry and choose the church based on that. The head of the ministry is the pastor as he leads the vision for the entire church.

But here is what I believe is Priority #1 - churches will grow if the preacher will learn how to preach. Most pastors have no clue how to organize a sermon, make points, use illustrations, and be cogent throughout without hollering or making stupid comments. My advice - learn to preach, take a class, listen to good preachers, and apply what you learn. Then your congregation will grow.
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2/25/22 10:55 am


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Post Re: It's on the Preacher Cojak
FG Minister wrote:
When I was in seminary, a professor said "to grow a church you will have to win people to yourself first, then they will consider your church." I didn't like that idea, but it's true. If they don't like the preaching, the way I conduct a service, the way I interact with them - they won't be back. People don't choose churches based on denomination like they used to. They evaluate the ministry and choose the church based on that. The head of the ministry is the pastor as he leads the vision for the entire church.

But here is what I believe is Priority #1 - churches will grow if the preacher will learn how to preach. Most pastors have no clue how to organize a sermon, make points, use illustrations, and be cogent throughout without hollering or making stupid comments. My advice - learn to preach, take a class, listen to good preachers, and apply what you learn. Then your congregation will grow.


That may not be the BEST way to choose a church, but what you say seems to be how it is today. Life today, I guess we must live with it or lose (IF that is the case, and it looks like it is)
Very good points my friend. Wink
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2/25/22 6:02 pm


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