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When the rapture does occur...
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Post When the rapture does occur... roughridercog
What possible explanation will the rulers and officials who are left give to somehow explain the occurrence, in your opinion?
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5/18/21 8:47 am


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Post Re: When the rapture does occur... UncleJD
roughridercog wrote:
What possible explanation will the rulers and officials who are left give to somehow explain the occurrence, in your opinion?


Mass alien abduction. Have you seen the recent "news" that "UFO's are real"?
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5/18/21 9:36 am


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Post Re: When the rapture does occur... roughridercog
UncleJD wrote:
roughridercog wrote:
What possible explanation will the rulers and officials who are left give to somehow explain the occurrence, in your opinion?


Mass alien abduction. Have you seen the recent "news" that "UFO's are real"?


Either that or a new symptom of Covid
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Post Quiet Wyatt
Since the New Testament only reveals a singular coming of Christ at the end of the age, and no secret rapture at all, we must pray that we may endure.

https://theologue.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/thecomingofthelorde28093robertbrown.pdf
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5/19/21 12:52 am


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Post Re: When the rapture does occur... Link
roughridercog wrote:
What possible explanation will the rulers and officials who are left give to somehow explain the occurrence, in your opinion?


They might be too concerned with Christ executing vengence on them that know not God to bother with giving explanations. In II Thessalonians 1, Christ returns to give the church rest and to execute vengence on them that believe not, when He comes to be glorified in the saints.

In I Corinthians 15, they that are Christ's are made alive at His coming. It does not say seven years before His coming.

In I Thessalonians 4, the rapture and resurrection seem to occur at the coming 'parousia' of Christ. In II Thessalonians 2, 'that wicked' is destroyed with the brightness of Christ's coming.

I am not seeing room for pre-trib in there.
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6/3/21 7:02 am


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Post How could millions get it wrong then??? Dean Steenburgh
With all due respect, how could millions of preachers & believers have it all wrong?
For 100's of years, thousands upon thousands of Holy Ghost filled pentecostal preachers & tens of thousands of nominal Christian preachers helped to lead a nation back to Christ & planted thousands of good churches all over the world who taught the pre-trib rapture belief.
In fact I believe most of those ministers & their converts believed in a pre-trib rapture.
1 Thess. 4 teaches it very clearly unless one tries to place the event at the end of the 7 year trib.
But if you do that you have the marriage supper of the Lamb ...so how could that happen at the end of the trib when the 1,000 year reign with Christ is supposed to take place?
We know exactly how many days the trib will last & if the rapture were to occur after the trib then we would know what day it occurs - but we're told no man knows "the day or the hour." (Matt. 24:36)
I don't see God crushing the Church prior to His presentation of the Bride to Christ.
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7/11/21 11:52 pm


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Post Bro Bob
Like the CoG I do not have a firm understanding of the order of future events as far as pre-mid-post trib. We only teach a pre millenial 2nd coming.

And I can list several objections or concerns about any of the three choices. But there are some fundamentals that I do know. And this is one:

Quote:
Genesis 18:
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord. 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”


If the church is here through the horrors of the 7 year great tribulation, there may be many martyrs, many righteous who are slain for their testimony by the wicked. But God will not kill the righteous with the wicked. Not the God of Abraham. Not the God I serve.
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7/13/21 11:56 pm


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Post Pre-tribbers need to act like it. SCFIRE
I'm with Dean Steenburgh and Bro Bob. I'm pre trib and will be greatly surprised if it doesn't happen that way. Either way I will be ready for whatever happens.
I personally see more salvation results in those that teach and believe pre-trib.
The thing that disturbs me is how so many church's are nonchalant about winning souls. So many of the ones that believe in pre trib are just ministering to their congregations with very little thought given to how to bring the lost in. Waiting on the lost to come into the church to hear us preach is a waste of time in many cases.
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7/14/21 6:47 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Where do we find a secret rapture in the New Testament? It was certainly not taught by Jesus or Paul, both of whom explicitly taught the rapture/gathering of the elect would be after the tribulation, at the revelation/ appearing/manifestation of Christ. The pretrib theory, which no one taught prior to 1830, is entirely based on inference from Jesus’ statements about readiness, but His teaching on readiness is in reference to the ONE rapture He ever spoke of—that which He said will occur “AFTER the tribulation of those days” in Matthew 24. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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7/14/21 9:45 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
According to Paul, the blessed hope is the glorious APPEARING of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ:


Titus 2:13 - waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing (epiphaneia) of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Do a study on epiphaneia. You will find it only can refer to a public display, the very opposite of a secret rapture concept.
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7/14/21 11:37 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
2 Thess 1:6 NASB For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed.

In the above passage, Paul notably does not say, “You will get relief from your afflictions when the rapture takes place and you are removed from the earth prior to the great tribulation.” Instead he says the Thessalonian believers will get relief from their affliction when the Lord Jesus is revealed from Heaven, in flaming fire taking vengeance on the enemies of God, and that He will come to be glorified in His saints on THAT day.
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7/14/21 11:43 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
With regard to the idea that God would somehow crush his church if he allowed her to go through the tribulation, it is certainly not the posttrib view that says God will ever crush his church or pour out His wrath on the faithdul. God certainly knows how to aim. Just as He protected the Israelites from the Egyptian plagues, even so, He will not fail to protect his people in the last days. That said, more Christians have been martyred for their faith in the last 100 years than in all the centuries previous to it combined. The pretrib doctrine is based in part upon the positively cowardly idea that the final generation of Christians should somehow be exempt from martyrdom. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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7/14/21 11:52 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Also, do a study on the Greek word typically used in the NT which is usually rendered “coming.” (Parousia). It signifies “arrival” or “presence,” and usually always refers to the public arrival of a king or other dignitary. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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7/14/21 11:56 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Jesus himself says in Matthew 24:29-31 that His return will be immediately after the tribulation of those days. His statements regarding readiness for His return, spoken of later in the same chapter, do not state or in any way require a secret rapture before the one and only return He speaks of in this passage or any other.

Matt. 24:36“But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40At that time there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

In the above, He is not teaching an “any moment” return per se, but is saying His return will be sudden, catastrophic and unexpected by the ungodly, just as the Great Flood was for the ungodly in Noah’s day.

Jesus’ statement that no one knows the day nor the hour, in context, is itself an exhortation to unwavering readiness through faithful service, and a stark warning against sinful, careless living in light of the fact that He definitely will come back:

Matt. 24:42“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44For this reason you must be ready as well; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
45“Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household slaves, to give them their food at the proper time? 46Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49and he begins to beat his fellow slaves, and he eats and drinks with those habitually drunk; 50then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, 51and he will cut him in two and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

We prepare for His return by living holy, spiritually awake and alert lives, looking for His appearing.
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7/14/21 3:06 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
1 Thess 5:1Now as to the periods and times, brothers and sisters, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord is coming just like a thief in the night. 3While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction will come upon them like labor pains upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are NOT in darkness, so that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so then, let’s not sleep as others do, but let’s be alert and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who are drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we are of the day, let’s be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. NASB

In the above passage, Paul says that the day of the Lord shall come like a thief upon the unsuspecting lost world of mankind, but that faithful believers are not in darkness, that that hour should overtake them as a thief. Contrary to how the secret rapture theory is often taught, Christ coming back as a thief only applies to the unsuspecting, unregenerate world, not to the faithful believer. This fits perfectly with the posttrib view, for until Christ returns to earth bodily, the unbelieving world will be completely deceived by strong delusion God will send them concerning the Antichrist, etc.

This same emphasis of Christ coming as a thief upon the unbelieving or upon the backslidden, unbelieving church is seen in every place in the NT where the thief motif is used:

Rev. 3:3 Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you. NASB

Rev. 16:15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and people will not see his shame.”) NASB

Luke 21:34“But be on your guard, so that your hearts will not be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that this day will not come on you suddenly, like a trap; 35for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth. 36But stay alert at all times, praying that you will have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man. NASB

Even in the less clearly premillennial passage, 2 Pet. 3, the “coming like a thief” concept refers to that which will be destroyed, not to the faithful believer:

2 Peter 3:10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered.
11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace,

To avoid having the day of the Lord come upon one as a thief, one must be faithful, awake and alert spiritually, not walking in darkness but instead in the light. This motif of readiness most definitely holds true with the posttrib view. Upon the unbelieving world, Christ’s coming will be unexpected, like a thief. That hour shall not overtake faithful believers as a thief, according to 1 Thess 5. BE READY! LIVE HOLY EVERY DAY!
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7/14/21 3:07 pm


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Post Re: When the rapture does occur... Link
roughridercog wrote:
What possible explanation will the rulers and officials who are left give to somehow explain the occurrence, in your opinion?


I don't know that they will be explaining anything at the moment when Christ returns to execute vengence on them that believe not, to give the church rest, and to be glorified in them that believe.

I see no evidence for a seven year gap between the coming of Christ and the coming of Christ.
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7/14/21 4:18 pm


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Post Re: When the rapture does occur... Link
roughridercog wrote:
What possible explanation will the rulers and officials who are left give to somehow explain the occurrence, in your opinion?


I don't know that they will be explaining anything at the moment when Christ returns to execute vengence on them that believe not, to give the church rest, and to be glorified in them that believe.

I see no evidence for a seven year gap between the coming of Christ and the coming of Christ.

I consider the parousia/coming of Christ and the parousia/coming of Christ to be one event.
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7/14/21 4:18 pm


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Post Dean Steenburgh
Here is the way some of this is coming across.
The post-trib view:
At some secret moment the 7 year tribulation will begin & we will have a countdown on a day by day calendar as to when it will be over.
We know when the first 3.5 years will be over, we know when the anti-Christ will reveal himself & we know when his reign will end.
The problem with this view is that the end of the 7 year trib (based on those who teach this theory) is when Christ returns & we would know "the day" which is contrary to scripture.
Even if He didn't come back on the very last day of the 7 yr trib we know that His coming would be momentarily.
This sets up a scenario whereby people can live pretty much any way that they want to & just hold out until it's pretty close to the end & then 'suddenly' get their life right with Christ because we know in a few days the tribulation will be over & that means His return will suddenly appear.

The pre-trib view:
At some moment (any second) our world will experience an event that will be so climatic that nothing in all of history will be able to compare to it's magnitude. The rapture (catching away) of the saints.
The righteous will be protected & safe with Christ - the unGodly will be doomed.
The Groom will come for His bride & the door will be shut for those who cannot enter.
We are to warn folks of this coming event but we live in the days of Noah.
Noah tried to teach about God but people didn't want to hear it ...and then 'suddenly' a storm came up, the door to the ark was shut & it was too late.
The righteous were protected & safe - the unGodly were doomed.
In Gen. 19 the righteous were removed from the judgment of God (notice they didn't continue living there, isolated in a safe zone).
The children of Israel were protected in Goshen prior to their rescue but it was pre-determined by God that they would be slaves in Egypt & then they would leave for the promised land.
God has a master plan & we can see the way He wants it played out as it follows the former accounts throughout scripture.
As soon as the rapture occurs where we go to meet the Lord in the air we will go to heaven where we will enjoy the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
During this Supper the world will be suffering the affects of a 'shut door' due to the 7 yr tribulation.
At the end of the Marriage Supper, the Lord will return in the 2nd advent & bring a final judgment on the inhabitants of the world before we begin the 1,000 year reign with Christ here on earth where the new Jerusalem will be our world captial.
We won't have any warning as to when the Lord returns & that is why He comes as a thief in the night, where we can't prepare for the intrusion unless our lamps are already trimmed & waiting for Him to return.
We won't see the world wide worship of the anti-Christ with a mandatory mark of the beast.
We won't experience blood being turned to water for months, winds withheld from the earth for months, rotting fish in the ocean for months, billions of people slaughtered, moon & stars destroyed, 1/3 of the daylight removed, food almost entirely gone & countless other destructions ...God isn't going to subject us to that.
And then after these days are complete we have the exact day He is supposed to return?

Doesn't add up folks when you see the track record of God's protection throughout history & compare it to what He says He will do here at the end of time.

.
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7/17/21 9:08 pm


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Post Re: How could millions get it wrong then??? Link
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
With all due respect, how could millions of preachers & believers have it all wrong?
For 100's of years, thousands upon thousands of Holy Ghost filled pentecostal preachers & tens of thousands of nominal Christian preachers helped to lead a nation back to Christ & planted thousands of good churches all over the world who taught the pre-trib rapture belief.


How could all the multitudes of Christians be wrong before the dispensational pre-trib rapture belief was invented in the 1800's who did not teach it.

Quote:

In fact I believe most of those ministers & their converts believed in a pre-trib rapture.
1 Thess. 4 teaches it very clearly unless one tries to place the event at the end of the 7 year trib.


Can you show me where I Thessalonians teaches that the rapture is pre-trib? I Thesalonians puts it at the parousia, the coming of Christ. Pre-trib has the rapture occuring 7 years before the coming of Christ. II Thessalonians 2 says that that wicked will be destroyed at the brightness of his coming. Pre-trib has the man of sin being revealed after the rapture.

Quote:

But if you do that you have the marriage supper of the Lamb ...so how could that happen at the end of the trib when the 1,000 year reign with Christ is supposed to take place?


What problem do you see exactly?

Quote:

We know exactly how many days the trib will last & if the rapture were to occur after the trib then we would know what day it occurs - but we're told no man knows "the day or the hour." (Matt. 24:36)


That assumes every little detail of your pre-trib interpretation is correct.

Do you have any scripture you can present that actually puts the rapture before the tribulation? Where is the pre-trib rapture mentioned in Matthew 24 or the book of Revelation or any other passage in the Bible? Why does pre-trib have to be read into passages that do not mention it?

Why do references to the 'coming of the Son of Man' and the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24 show up 'after the tribulation of those days'?

Quote:

I don't see God crushing the Church prior to His presentation of the Bride to Christ.


Do you interpret Revelation to be about God crushing the tribulational saints? Do you think they are not a part of the church of the firstborn?
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7/19/21 12:51 am


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Post Dean Steenburgh
Link,
Please give me an explanation as to what you believe will be the launch of the 7 year tribulation? Do you think it has a start date?
Keep in mind if you have a start date for the 7 year trib then you also have a countdown for the 1,260 days of the 1st half of the trib & 1,260 days for the 2nd half of the trib. (this sets up a potential knowing of the exact day of Christ's 2nd advent).

How do you explain the Marriage Supper of the Lamb with your theory of a post trib rapture? (where does it fit in with your time-line?)

The souls that are seen under the altar in Rev. 6 are those who receive Christ during the tribulation. Are you of the understanding that these souls are "all" of the Christians who are living (& then martyred) during the tribulation?

Bonus question: are you in the camp that believers will face the great white throne judgment?
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7/19/21 10:24 pm


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