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 "Black and White Bible, Black and Blue Wife" (L) |
bonnie knox |
Here is an interview with the author of the book, Black and White Bible, Black and Blue Wife.
http://natesparks130.com/2016/03/03/a-qa-with-dr-ruth-tucker/
A quote from the interview:
The audience I most desire to reach is the very influential segment of evangelicalism that supports the doctrine of male headship. I don't expect to 'convert' them in large numbers to the egalitarian position, but I do want them to reassess their position and how it plays out in practical terms. At the very end of the book I ask a series of questions. Here I will simplify in one question: Does the doctrine of male headship allow a husband to take the car keys or the cell phone away from his wife? It's a very simple question and I believe that those who promote male headship must be forthcoming. A standard response is that no marriage should get to the point of fighting over phone or keys and if it does the husband must go to the male elders of the church. But that does not answer the question. What power and authority does the husband have over his wife? Keys, phone, I want an answer. |
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Posts: 14803
3/8/16 10:41 am
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| Re: "Black and White Bible, Black and Blue Wife" (L) |
Patrick Harris |
| Quote: | | Does the doctrine of male headship allow a husband to take the car keys or the cell phone away from his wife? |
No, unless she's going to be doing something illegal like Drinking and driving.
| Quote: | | A standard response is that no marriage should get to the point of fighting over phone or keys and if it does the husband must go to the male elders of the church. |
Yeah, right.. Not the church elders business 
But then I don't believe that a patriarchal mandate still exists today. |
Acts Enthusiast
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3/8/16 11:45 am
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c6thplayer1 |
| Totally ridiculous. In a relationship that works both are equal. In a relationship thats beyond great , the wifes treated like a queen and given a much greater share. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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3/8/16 3:45 pm
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| Re: "Black and White Bible, Black and Blue Wife" (L) |
Link |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Does the doctrine of male headship allow a husband to take the car keys or the cell phone away from his wife? It's a very simple question and I believe that those who promote male headship must be forthcoming. A standard response is that no marriage should get to the point of fighting over phone or keys and if it does the husband must go to the male elders of the church. But that does not answer the question. What power and authority does the husband have over his wife? Keys, phone, I want an answer. |
In an extreme circumstance that calls for it, maybe. But I don't think that would generally be a healthy thing to do in a relationship.
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3/8/16 8:27 pm
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| Re: "Black and White Bible, Black and Blue Wife" (L) |
bonnie knox |
Are there extreme circumstances that call for a wife to take the keys or cell phone of her husband?
| Link wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Does the doctrine of male headship allow a husband to take the car keys or the cell phone away from his wife? It's a very simple question and I believe that those who promote male headship must be forthcoming. A standard response is that no marriage should get to the point of fighting over phone or keys and if it does the husband must go to the male elders of the church. But that does not answer the question. What power and authority does the husband have over his wife? Keys, phone, I want an answer. |
In an extreme circumstance that calls for it, maybe. But I don't think that would generally be a healthy thing to do in a relationship. |
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3/9/16 10:29 am
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| Re: "Black and White Bible, Black and Blue Wife" (L) |
UncleJD |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Are there extreme circumstances that call for a wife to take the keys or cell phone of her husband? |
I think so |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
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3/9/16 10:31 am
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| Re: "Black and White Bible, Black and Blue Wife" (L) |
bonnie knox |
I can think of examples such as being under the influence, developing dementia, etc. where one person might feel it necessary to take the keys, but I think the question Dr. Ruth Tucker was asking was more about whether a husband has the "authority" to take the car keys as a punitive or corrective measure (or even whim?). That boggles my mind to even think in those terms, but it has even been suggested here on Acts.
| UncleJD wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Are there extreme circumstances that call for a wife to take the keys or cell phone of her husband? |
I think so |
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3/9/16 10:47 am
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| Re: "Black and White Bible, Black and Blue Wife" (L) |
UncleJD |
| bonnie knox wrote: | I can think of examples such as being under the influence, developing dementia, etc. where one person might feel it necessary to take the keys, but I think the question Dr. Ruth Tucker was asking was more about whether a husband has the "authority" to take the car keys as a punitive or corrective measure. That boggles my mind to even think in those terms, but it has even been suggested here on Acts.
| UncleJD wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Are there extreme circumstances that call for a wife to take the keys or cell phone of her husband? |
I think so |
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Does he have the authority to? Or the sense not to? I prescribe to the headship principle as a call to sacrifice and leadership through example and servant-hood as Christ modeled it, and to submission as being each to the other. Forced "submission" is not submission at all. If the husband can't ask his wife to not go somewhere without consideration from her, then he's already forfeited his "authority" somewhere else down the line through some action that was NOT Christlike. A husband can't claim Christ's authority without acting like Christ. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3147
3/9/16 10:57 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| c6thplayer1 wrote: | | In a relationship thats beyond great , the wifes treated like a queen and given a much greater share. |
I hope this reply is not off-topic; Bonnie, if you feel that it is, please comment and I will start a new thread.
With that said, I don't understand this statement. What about this makes a relationship "beyond great"? Is female superiority not reflective of the same inequality as male superiority? I would really like to understand the thinking behind this (admittedly very common) statement.
My wife and I are equals (even though we hold to complementarianism and male headship; figure that one out!) My goal in our marriage is to serve her, sacrifice for her, and put her first. Her goal in our marriage is to serve me, sacrifice for me, and put me first. I would argue that that level of mutual submission, service, and sacrifice is what makes a marriage "beyond great". |
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3/9/16 11:27 am
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c6thplayer1 |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | c6thplayer1 wrote: | | In a relationship thats beyond great , the wifes treated like a queen and given a much greater share. |
I hope this reply is not off-topic; Bonnie, if you feel that it is, please comment and I will start a new thread.
With that said, I don't understand this statement. What about this makes a relationship "beyond great"? Is female superiority not reflective of the same inequality as male superiority? I would really like to understand the thinking behind this (admittedly very common) statement.
My wife and I are equals (even though we hold to complementarianism and male headship; figure that one out!) My goal in our marriage is to serve her, sacrifice for her, and put her first. Her goal in our marriage is to serve me, sacrifice for me, and put me first. I would argue that that level of mutual submission, service, and sacrifice is what makes a marriage "beyond great". |
Thats exactly my thought. As you said "put her first. and sacrifice is what makes a marriage "beyond great". |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
3/9/16 11:37 am
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bonnie knox |
| Dr. Ruth Tucker has an interesting story to tell. She was married to a minister. And for 19 years he was abusive to her. |
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3/9/16 11:43 am
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| I'm more open to rabbit trails than you might imagine! |
bonnie knox |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | c6thplayer1 wrote: | | In a relationship thats beyond great , the wifes treated like a queen and given a much greater share. |
I hope this reply is not off-topic; Bonnie, if you feel that it is, please comment and I will start a new thread.
With that said, I don't understand this statement. What about this makes a relationship "beyond great"? Is female superiority not reflective of the same inequality as male superiority? I would really like to understand the thinking behind this (admittedly very common) statement.
My wife and I are equals (even though we hold to complementarianism and male headship; figure that one out!) My goal in our marriage is to serve her, sacrifice for her, and put her first. Her goal in our marriage is to serve me, sacrifice for me, and put me first. I would argue that that level of mutual submission, service, and sacrifice is what makes a marriage "beyond great". |
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3/9/16 11:45 am
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bonnie knox |
| When c6th made his comment, I couldn't help recalling Jerry Clower talking about being humiliated by a feminist who wouldn't accept the seat he gave up for her on stage. He then launched into a monologue about how pampered and privileged his wife was. He ended by saying "Mama don't want you [women liberationists] messing with the deal she's got." He could make any story entertaining, but I thought it would be more effective if his wife was the one who told she was satisfied with her lot in life. In addition, if one woman wants her life that way, it shouldn't mean other women shouldn't have other choices. |
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3/9/16 11:50 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| c6thplayer1 wrote: | | Thats exactly my thought. As you said "put her first. and sacrifice is what makes a marriage "beyond great". |
Not if she's not doing the same for you. Otherwise, you have a one-sided marriage with one giving partner and one taking partner. You took half of what I said. |
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3/9/16 12:03 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | In addition, if one woman wants her life that way, it shouldn't mean other women shouldn't have other choices. |
I will say I can understand the comment. In a world where so many women are relegated to second-class citizens in marriages, I understand urging men to make their wives #1. A woman getting "a greater share" is much preferable, in my opinion, to her being a second-class citizens.
And really, that should be the goal of every husband regardless, but it should ALSO be the goal of every wife. But, I get tired of hearing things like "happy wife, happy life" -- if you have to work to keep your wife happy and satisfied, or there will be hell to pay for you, you don't have a healthy marriage. Same thing if a wife has to do that for her husband to avoid trouble, which sadly many, many women do. |
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3/9/16 12:05 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Not if she's not doing the same for you. Otherwise, you have a one-sided marriage with one giving partner and one taking partner. You took half of what I said. |
And before anyone says so, if a husband had a wife (or vice-versa!) who was a "taking" partner, I would not counsel him to stop giving to her until she changed. My counsel to him would always be the same -- to love her, sacrifice for her, and put her first, regardless of whether that behavior is reciprocated. He is responsible for himself, not her. But let's not let ourselves dwell under the illusion that one partner doing that makes a "great" or "beyond great" marriage. It doesn't. Marriages only reach total bliss when both partners embrace submission and selfless service to the other. |
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Posts: 13654
3/9/16 12:07 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Does he have the authority to? Or the sense not to? I prescribe to the headship principle as a call to sacrifice and leadership through example and servant-hood as Christ modeled it, and to submission as being each to the other. Forced "submission" is not submission at all. If the husband can't ask his wife to not go somewhere without consideration from her, then he's already forfeited his "authority" somewhere else down the line through some action that was NOT Christlike. A husband can't claim Christ's authority without acting like Christ. |
Questions from the author:
"If the husband is the head--the ruler--in the home, who regulates him? Who determines if his headship is actually comparable to the headship of
Christ? The husband himself? Is he alone the interpreter of the biblical
standard? Is he the judge and jury in his own court case? Is he the
referee, the umpire, in his own ball game? Is he absolutely unbiased?
Who determines exactly what male headship entails in each situation? Is
there a written or unwritten standard for twenty-first- century domestic
situations? At what point, if ever, does his behavior make his headship
invalid? Indeed, what are the consequences when husbands fail to live
up to this standard?" |
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3/9/16 12:10 pm
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bonnie knox |
Dave, my take on what c6th and Jerry Clower are/were saying is not that she is above him; it's that there is an exchange. She exchanges some agency about executive decisions for material comforts and a life of ease.
JMO |
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3/9/16 12:16 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| bonnie knox wrote: | Dave, my take on what c6th and Jerry Clower are/were saying is not that she is above him; it's that there is an exchange. She exchanges some agency about executive decisions for material comforts and a life of ease.
JMO |
I don't think I'm understanding you; or we are talking about two different things. I am taking issue with the following statement only:
"In a relationship thats beyond great , the wifes treated like a queen and given a much greater share." |
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Posts: 13654
3/9/16 12:19 pm
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| Re: "Black and White Bible, Black and Blue Wife" (L) |
Link |
| bonnie knox wrote: | Are there extreme circumstances that call for a wife to take the keys or cell phone of her husband?
| Link wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Does the doctrine of male headship allow a husband to take the car keys or the cell phone away from his wife? It's a very simple question and I believe that those who promote male headship must be forthcoming. A standard response is that no marriage should get to the point of fighting over phone or keys and if it does the husband must go to the male elders of the church. But that does not answer the question. What power and authority does the husband have over his wife? Keys, phone, I want an answer. |
In an extreme circumstance that calls for it, maybe. But I don't think that would generally be a healthy thing to do in a relationship. |
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The scenarios I was thinking of were if a woman were mentally or emotionally unstable or if she'd been texting her old boyfriend.
Let me ask you something, Bonnie. The Bible tells wives to submit to their husbands in everything. Do you think it would be right for a husband to refuse to submit to her husband if he told her he wanted to hold her cell phone or car keys.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
3/9/16 12:43 pm
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