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 The God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims? |
Aaron Scott |
I don't make it a point of doctrine, of course, but I do believe that the Muslims, though their understanding can be twisted, dark, and erroneous, is reaching out to the God of Abraham, as they understand Him.
Consider that the Athenians were "ignorantly worshipping" the Unknown God--and Paul came along to declare Him unto them. To tell them the truth about this Unknown God, to reveal what they did not know, to straighten out misconceptions.
It occurs to me that the radical Muslims of today are pretty much like the early Old Testament Hebrews. Consider that when Muslims stone someone, we are taken aback, considering it barbaric...yet in the OT, that was standard operating procedure.
Hands could be cut off in the OT...same with the Muslims today.
Both believe strongly in circumcision (since both Ishmael and Isaac were circumcised).
The modern-day Jews have pulled away from many of these OT practices. I'm not sure I understand their justification for doing so. Christians have justification, since we believe in the grace of Jesus, but I'm not sure that Jews have as good a reason for acting like stoning is somehow barbaric, since, supposedly, that is the Law they should be following, right?
Just to clarify, Muslims are WRONG. They are going to hell if they don't accept Jesus.
Further clarification: Jews are WRONG. They are going to hell if they don't accept Jesus.
But I have come to believe that we are all reaching out to the same God. However, because Christians come by Jesus, we have access to this God...Jews and Muslims cannot come to the Father except by Jesus. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/30/15 9:27 am
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| Re: The God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims? |
DrDuck |
(Delete) Accidental duplicate.
Last edited by DrDuck on 12/30/15 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 755
12/30/15 10:07 am
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UncleJD |
There's a lot to unpack there Aaron so I'll just keep it short.
When Christians say "Muslims don't worship the same God as I do", on the surface that may seem incorrect if you ONLY consider the term God and the historical context from which they claim their religion flows.
Muslims claim the word Allah is simply "God" in their language and I agree with that.
However, saying that he is the same God as Yahweh is not true based on the revealed nature of Yahweh vs. the god of Islam. And the revealed nature of God is the very core of the mater. The name and historical link (creation and Abraham) are insignificant.
Then there's Jesus. The physical, human, tangible manifestation of God that Christians actually DO worship, denying Him is the opposite of the claim that "we worship the same god".
So, while many Christians might be ignorant of the "historic" reasons for saying Allah and God are synonymous, in their hearts they understand that the revealed Christ is the core of who God is and that there is not even a vague similarity.
(there's a lot more to what you posted that can be unpacked but I have no time) |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3145
12/30/15 10:08 am
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| Re: The God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims? |
DrDuck |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | I don't make it a point of doctrine, of course, but I do believe that the Muslims, though their understanding can be twisted, dark, and erroneous, is reaching out to the God of Abraham, as they understand Him.
Consider that the Athenians were "ignorantly worshipping" the Unknown God--and Paul came along to declare Him unto them. To tell them the truth about this Unknown God, to reveal what they did not know, to straighten out misconceptions.
It occurs to me that the radical Muslims of today are pretty much like the early Old Testament Hebrews. Consider that when Muslims stone someone, we are taken aback, considering it barbaric...yet in the OT, that was standard operating procedure.
Hands could be cut off in the OT...same with the Muslims today.
Both believe strongly in circumcision (since both Ishmael and Isaac were circumcised).
The modern-day Jews have pulled away from many of these OT practices. I'm not sure I understand their justification for doing so. Christians have justification, since we believe in the grace of Jesus, but I'm not sure that Jews have as good a reason for acting like stoning is somehow barbaric, since, supposedly, that is the Law they should be following, right?
Just to clarify, Muslims are WRONG. They are going to hell if they don't accept Jesus.
Further clarification: Jews are WRONG. They are going to hell if they don't accept Jesus.
But I have come to believe that we are all reaching out to the same God. However, because Christians come by Jesus, we have access to this God...Jews and Muslims cannot come to the Father except by Jesus. |
\
I think you make a subjective vs objective decision to believe this. The god of the Koran does not trace back the the monotheism that begins in the first chapter of Genesis. Allah's origins are in the same idols that deceived Israel and led her kings to stray from Jehovah. Allah is the ancient Moon god that Arabs have worshiped from ancient times.
Last edited by DrDuck on 12/30/15 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 755
12/30/15 10:09 am
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| Re: The God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims? |
c6thplayer1 |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | I don't make it a point of doctrine, of course, but I do believe that the Muslims, though their understanding can be twisted, dark, and erroneous, is reaching out to the God of Abraham, as they understand Him.
Consider that the Athenians were "ignorantly worshipping" the Unknown God--and Paul came along to declare Him unto them. To tell them the truth about this Unknown God, to reveal what they did not know, to straighten out misconceptions.
It occurs to me that the radical Muslims of today are pretty much like the early Old Testament Hebrews. Consider that when Muslims stone someone, we are taken aback, considering it barbaric...yet in the OT, that was standard operating procedure.
Hands could be cut off in the OT...same with the Muslims today.
Both believe strongly in circumcision (since both Ishmael and Isaac were circumcised).
The modern-day Jews have pulled away from many of these OT practices. I'm not sure I understand their justification for doing so. Christians have justification, since we believe in the grace of Jesus, but I'm not sure that Jews have as good a reason for acting like stoning is somehow barbaric, since, supposedly, that is the Law they should be following, right?
Just to clarify, Muslims are WRONG. They are going to hell if they don't accept Jesus.
Further clarification: Jews are WRONG. They are going to hell if they don't accept Jesus.
But I have come to believe that we are all reaching out to the same God. However, because Christians come by Jesus, we have access to this God...Jews and Muslims cannot come to the Father except by Jesus. |
Our God is a God of Love and does not require us to kill those who dont convert to Christianity. I could go on and on but you get the picture.
I wonder how our wives would feel if we were awarded 72 virgins in heaven?
How would we feel if our wives were awarded 72 men in heaven? It seems to me that lust would be prevalent in heaven if this was the case.
As a side note ;
Who would award phony Degrees , Jesus or allah? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
12/30/15 12:19 pm
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| Re: The God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims? |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | I have come to believe that we are all reaching out to the same God. However, because Christians come by Jesus, we have access to this God...Jews and Muslims cannot come to the Father except by Jesus. |
Partially correct, Aaron.
1. Christians access Jehovah via Jesus.
2. Jews reach out to Jehovah, while rejecting Jesus as Messiah.
3. The god of Islam IS NOT Jehovah. Yes, Muslims reach out, as do all people (i.e., via Paschal's "God-shaped Vacuum), to a supreme being. Allah IS NOT Jehovah. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
12/30/15 12:37 pm
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| Uncle JD |
Aaron Scott |
| If denying Jesus means Muslims don't worship the same God, then that would mean Jews don't either, right?{ |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/30/15 1:55 pm
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| Re: Uncle JD |
UncleJD |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | If denying Jesus means Muslims don't worship the same God, then that would mean Jews don't either, right?{ |
Yes to some extent. They refuse to believe the revelation of Himself in the person of Christ. However, they could turn to Christ and not deny the God they believe in. There is no Jewish scripture that says that "God has no son" like the koran does. While Jews may not believe that He does, there is no scripture in their Bible that specifically states that. Also, we Christians share the same scriptures with Jews, scriptures that reveal as much about God as He wanted to reveal prior to Christ. There is no shared scripture with Islam, Islam rejects both the OT and the NT and calls them both corrupt. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3145
12/30/15 2:44 pm
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| Re: Uncle JD |
DrDuck |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | If denying Jesus means Muslims don't worship the same God, then that would mean Jews don't either, right?{ |
Not UJD, but Muslims, while they do not acknowledge Jesus as savior, they regard him as one of the greatest of prophets. Even their holy book confirms the virgin birth of Jesus. Oxymoronic that they do this and still hate Jesus' followers enough to kill them wholesale.
Even in the case of the Jews their treatment of Jesus is disconnected from their perception and regard for God. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 755
12/30/15 2:49 pm
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Link |
As far as the name 'Allah goes, Christians use that term. The evidence seems to support the idea that this was the pre-Islamic Christian name for God. Some of the Christians named their boys 'Abdullah, which is a contracted form of 'Abdu 'Allah. 'Allah is believed in the cognate with 'El in Hebrew. 'Abdu is cognate with 'Obed.
Do Muslims worship the same God? Maybe it's a question of semantics. We might argue that the Samaritans were closer to Judaism than 'Islam. But Jesus said to the Samaritan woman 'Ye worship ye know not what.'
But we might translate that as 'Ye bow down to ye know not what.' The topic she had raised was the proper place of prostration. The Samaritans had had a rival temple in Samaria after a high priests brother was expelled from the Jerusalem temple for marrying Sanballat's daughter, and was given the role of high priest in a temple Sanballat built for him, taking a number of priests with him, according to Josephus.
I've heard that Islam teaches that 'allah is the biggest deceiver. For Christians, that sounds like a description of the Devil.
In speaking to Muslims, particularly in languages where 'Allah is a name for God that Christians use, I don't think it is wise to say they worship another God. Talk about what 'Allah is like. You can point out that Muhammad claimed that the proof of his prophethood was in the Gospels and Torah, so explain that those books aren't corrupted, and then point out how important it is to study these books. Then tell them what the Bible says.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
12/30/15 3:10 pm
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UncleJD |
| When a Jew turns to Christ, they not only keep their existing scripture, they learn more about its meaning and can embrace Him more than ever. When a Muslim turns to Christ, the entirety of what they have believed about God must be discarded including every single word of what they believe is scripture. So while they may worship the same God in name (though I disagree in that the name of Jesus is the name that counts when it comes to worship of God), they have no real revelation of who He is. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3145
12/30/15 5:21 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| UncleJD wrote: | | When a Muslim turns to Christ, the entirety of what they have believed about God must be discarded including every single word of what they believe is scripture. |
Ats true, an ats cause the entirety a what they believe has no reference to Jehovah, the fully revealed God of the Bible. Islamic stories of Abraham and Jesus are not biblical, they are but biased caricatures of the genuine biblical account (e.g., Allah as no son, etc.). The Koran offers an Abraham, a Jesus, and other similar stories, but these are never in the same status as presented in the Bible. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
12/30/15 6:11 pm
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| Uncle JD... |
Aaron Scott |
My friend, Muslims accept large portions of the OT and NT.
They believe Jesus was born of a virgin.
That Moses was a prophet.
Etc.
They borrow heavily from the OT and NT.
Just FYI...I do know where you are coming from though. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/30/15 8:21 pm
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| Re: Uncle JD... |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | My friend, Muslims accept large portions of the OT and NT.
They believe Jesus was born of a virgin.
That Moses was a prophet.
Etc.
They borrow heavily from the OT and NT. . |
Aaron, son, I don't know what sources you been readin an all, but be encouraged to keep readin.
Yep, large portions a the OT an NT, wrongly interpreted, an changed to fit Islam.
Jesus born a virgin, but not the son of God? Not the Savior of the world? What good is a Jesus that aint God?
Moses a prophet? Yep, but far inferior to Mohammed. An not the Moses equal to the one we read about in the Bible.
Son, Wicca teaches some things in the Bible.
Mormonism/JW teach some things in the Bible.
Em Rosicrucian boys believe some things in the Bible.
Hinduism/Buddhism believe in Jesus.
But not a one of these false religions believe in the Jesus presented in the Bible. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
12/30/15 9:44 pm
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| Re: Uncle JD... |
UncleJD |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | My friend, Muslims accept large portions of the OT and NT.
They believe Jesus was born of a virgin.
That Moses was a prophet.
Etc.
They borrow heavily from the OT and NT.
Just FYI...I do know where you are coming from though. |
Which portions of the Bible do they accept? Can you give me a list of chapters and verses? |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3145
12/30/15 9:57 pm
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| Uncle JD |
Aaron Scott |
They have this new thing now called Google. Check it out.
Certainly Islam does not believe as we do, but they do accept swaths of the old and new testaments, even if they interpret differently, etc. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/31/15 8:13 am
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| Re: Uncle JD |
UncleJD |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | They have this new thing now called Google. Check it out.
Certainly Islam does not believe as we do, but they do accept swaths of the old and new testaments, even if they interpret differently, etc. |
Is there a way to get it to come up with something that doesn't exist? that would be cool. The Google machine (Deja to us old timers using it since 1997), said they have their own teachings on Biblical characters, but they are no more than borrowed names. They have an Adam that built a temple in Mecca, an Abraham who's promised seed was Ishmael and a Jesus was a Muslim prophet born of a virgin but not the son of God. So saying they accept "swaths" of the Bible is incorrect unless you can make the Google show us. The truth is they accept NONE of the Bible, the very concept of the Koran is that it is a correction of all of the "errors" in the Bible. While you can find that they claim to believe in the Torah, in the Psalms, and the gospels, they simultaneously believe that the versions that you and I read are corrupted and that God had to reveal the "true" version to Muhammad.
Further, the "interpret it differently" line is a little disturbing, sounds like they are just another denomination in the Church (big C), that might not believe in a rapture or something. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3145
12/31/15 10:36 am
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| Uncle JD... |
Aaron Scott |
Muslims accept, for instance, that Jesus was born of a virgin.
And about Ishmael, they have a pretty good case, do they not, with him being the firstborn? Yes, you and I know and believe differently, but they do believe Abraham had a son, Ishmael.
They believe in circumcision.
Like kosher Jews, they abstain from pork, etc.
They believe Jesus will return.
Again, I am NOT saying that these beliefs make them Christians--far from it! I AM saying that they have much overlap with our Christian beliefs. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/31/15 10:43 am
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UncleJD |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | My friend, Muslims accept large portions of the OT and NT. |
Ok, I was confused because you used the above to disprove what I claimed about the fact that they have to deny every single thing they believed about scripture once they come to Christ. If you meant "they claim to believe a lot of the same things we do (albeit with huge changes to the facts), then I can agree on that. The fact is they claim that the entirety of the Bible is corrupt and only in light of their Koran can it be interpreted correctly (negating the authority of the Bible)
Its really fascinating to be honest. Take nearly anything of spiritual consequence in the Bible whether its about a human or about God, and they have a belief that conflicts with Biblical teaching on the subject. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3145
12/31/15 11:00 am
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Link |
| UncleJD wrote: | | When a Jew turns to Christ, they not only keep their existing scripture, they learn more about its meaning and can embrace Him more than ever. When a Muslim turns to Christ, the entirety of what they have believed about God must be discarded including every single word of what they believe is scripture. So while they may worship the same God in name (though I disagree in that the name of Jesus is the name that counts when it comes to worship of God), they have no real revelation of who He is. |
They might get to keep a little of what they know about Him. They may have to throw out 70% or 90% or whatever.
A lot of Jews have to discard a lot of what they believed before. Orthodox Judaism has a lot of 'traditions of men' as a religion descended from the religion of the Pharisees.
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Acts-perienced Poster
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12/31/15 2:53 pm
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