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Preacher777

Pre-trib Information Request Not a Debate

Friendly Face Posts: 434 **12/22/15 9:05 am**

I am requesting information as to when and with who the pre-trib rapture teaching originated as I have heard different versions. I really don't have the time to do extensive research but did see some different theories when doing a Google search. Some said Darby, some said a girl had visions before him etc. One friend was taught that pre-trib teaching started in the 15th century. Perhaps some of you have studied this and/or have documentation from credible sources?

This is not an attempt to start a debate. I am not trying to set somebody up so I can disagree. In all due humility, I assume some of you have better knowledge than I as to this question.

I think it is safe to say that the average Christian who is taught pre-trib just assumes that it was taught by the apostles, early church fathers and to the present time.

Old Time Country Preacher

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 **12/22/15 12:24 pm**

P7, don't let at anti-pre-trib gang sell ya the line at it had never been heard of before Darby.

Mark Ledbetter

Origin of Rapture Doctrine

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2109 **12/22/15 1:58 pm**

John Nelson Darby outlined his thoughts on the Rapture in his work, The Rapture of the Saints and the Character of the Jewish Remnant. (c. 1850 or later).

While not citing a specific verse, Darby uses 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 as a backdrop for his position. He bases a "secret" rapture upon Colossians 3.

Some have suggested Darby first heard of the Rapture at a church meeting in Scotland where he heard a young girl prophesy the event.

Darby denied this and claimed he discovered the event on his own in study.

As for an earlier origin, I glanced at an article suggesting the doctrine derived from monks.
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Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **12/23/15 10:54 pm**

I read parts of a book called the 'Catholic Apostolic Church' which was about the movement with Irving that grew out of the movement where the Scottish girl prophesied. It denied the idea that Darby got his theory from her prophecy. I looked up Margaret McDonald's prophecy and it did mention 'secret rapture' if I recall correctly in the version I read, but it didn't seem to be used in a context that we would call 'the rapture.' And you could interpret it to refer to the Pentecostal movement coming in the future, I suppose. It has been years since I found that prophecy online.

Also, the author of that book, apparently a descendant of someone in the movement or a relative, pointed out that the Catholic Apostolic Church did not believe in the pre-trib rapture.

What happened was that around the 1830's, a charismatic and influential preacher with the last name of Irving believed in the baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in other tongues. He heard of tongues and or/prophesying being done by this young Scottish girl, Margaret McDonald and possibly others. It broke out in his church. There were tongues and interpretation and prophesying.

One of the men prophesied to a man there, "Are you not an apostle?" Between prophecies and apostles appointing other apostles, they ended up with 12 members of a Gentile apostolate. Most of them were British aristocrats. One who wasn't was a chemist (pharmacist?). The most influential figure probably was Drummond, an aristocrat who was in the House of Lords in England. He believed in apostolic succession, and that apostles were necessary for coming into the unity of the faith.

At some point, the Presbyterians kicked Irving out over some issue related to whether Jesus could sin or whether He was doing His works out of His deity or out of the power of the Spirit. The latter view is also a Pentecostal view nowadays. Irving was accused of having said that Christ had 'sinful flesh' or something along those lines.

The 'apostles' visited various countries in Europe. The brought back and developed an elaborate liturgy. Irving was in the role of 'angel', which I think was their word for traditional 'bishop' based on their interpretation of Revelation 2-3. They had priests, deacons, and subdeacons, in addition to their 'apostles.' Fairly early on in the movement, Irving died.

I read they had about 5000 people in their movement at one point. There was a splinter group in Europe when someone prophesied someone else into being an apostle. The main group in the UK disagreed and the German group became a separate movement. The UK group died off because they never appointed new apostles. Members went to other liturgical churches. The last of their so-called apostles, if I recall correctly, died in 1901, a few months after the Topeka outpouring.

The German group continues on. They have 'apostles', but I don't know if they were Charismatic otherwise. They don't believe in sermon preparation, and use the apocrypha. I get the impression than the UK group were into imitating 2nd century Christianity and historical practices after the first century. They get their name from a creed. Their 'apostles would 'seal' certain preachers from other denominations, including the RCC, by laying hands on them to give them a new kind of apostolic succession.

It kind of started off Pentecostal and ended really liturgical. The Charismatic manifestations seemed to take a back seat over time. At least, they weren't really part of the liturgy if I recall correctly, but they may have allowed gifts in home groups.
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Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **12/24/15 2:11 am**

I have heard that Darby and Irving went to some of the same end-times Bible prophecy conferences, held at a noble-woman's house. Darby was or became a cessationist. He could have been reacting to Irving in his beliefs. B.B. Warfield mentioned Irving in his cessationist work.

I don't believe Margaret McDonald's prophecy was pre-trib. It didn't mention the subject based on what I read. From what I've read, Irving wasn't pre-trib and neither was the Catholic Apostolic Church movement. They were 'milinearian', which I suppose means pre-mil, but I don't know what their specific beliefs were. The New Apostolic Church movement still exists. I don't know if they have the same eschatology as the Catholic Apostolic Church movement they grew out of or not. There may be some old works from the authors of this movement on their eschatology if anyone is interested. I found an old Drummand book on Google books. The part I read had something about apostles bringing unity.

I have read that there was someone named Ephraim or something like that in the 300s that had a quote consistent with pre-trib. I just think Darby arrived at the conclusion on his own. Maybe he, and Ephraim, were both a bit confused and overlooked the fact that the sign of the Son of man coming in the heavens and the gathering together of the elect from the four winds occurs AFTER the tribulation, and the fact that II Thessalonians shows the Lord coming back executing judgment on them that believe not when He comes to be glorified in the saints. He also probably overlooked they that are Christ will be made alive AT His coming, not seven years before it in I Corinthians 15.

Then Schofield served as a PR man for the theory and it gained in popularity. Since people don't care much for suffering, especially Americans, pre-trib has a certain appeal to it, in spite of the absence of scriptural support for it.
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Pastor Nations

Re: Pre-trib Information Request Not a Debate

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1085 **12/26/15 6:12 pm**

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Re: Pre-trib Information Request Not a Debate

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **12/26/15 6:17 pm**

Pastor Nations

Re: Pre-trib Information Request Not a Debate

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1085 **12/26/15 6:42 pm**

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Re: Pre-trib Information Request Not a Debate

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **12/26/15 6:54 pm**

A list of scriptures would be information.
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