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 Was Hitler trying to create the State of Israel? (V) |
Resident Skeptic |
More and more I'm learning Americans have been fed a very over-simplified version of major historical events.
I wonder how many on this board have heard this? Was Hitler trying to create a Jewish State in Palestine before WW2 broke out? I first discovered the "Transfer Agreement" a few months ago and was shocked. I had never heard it mentioned in school or in any history literature I had previously studied.
Like Pat Buchanan, I see the holocaust as a war crime that would not have happened had there not been a war in Europe at that time. France and Britain's insistence under the leadership of Chamberlain to guarantee to protect Poland from German (not Soviet) aggression caused the foolish Polish dictatorship (Poland was not some peace loving country as it is often depicted to be) to thumb its nose at Germany over some very reasonable German concerns about access to ports and treatment of ethnic Germans citizens in Poland. Churchill inherited the war and admitted to associates that he had thought Germany's concerns had been legitimate and that Poland had been unreasonable, and that the war was unnecessary (Churchill's words).
While all would agree that the persecution the Jews in Germany suffered during the 30's and prior to the Holocaust was wrong, the mass killings were not originally Hitler's plan and did not happen until 1942-43 when it was obvious he was losing the war. During the 30's Hitler was actually sending Jews to Palestine with their assets intact. The global Zionists who had been funding the Bolsheviks during WW1 and who had a major influence on America entering that war in exchange for the Balfour Declaration suddenly changed their minds. While they had certainly bargained for Jewish immigration to Palestine, losing their cash cow (Germany) was too big of a price and the Zionists fought back. Had France and Germany not stuck their noses in it, it is very possible that most of central Europe's Jews would have wound up in Palestine and safe.
The first video discusses the "Transfer Agreement", a book written by a Jewish author. It describes this official Nazi policy of relocating Jews to Palestine. The second video is a very short commentary by Pat Buchanan discussing how WW2 was very avoidable (about 7 minutes or you can start at 5:42 for an even shorter synopsis).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5AEWx_CA3o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srwk5WwroXY
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
12/16/15 7:38 pm
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mytimewillcome |
I thought this had to be a joke when I first saw the title. Nope.
Only RS could pull this off. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3661
12/17/15 2:01 am
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| mytimewillcome... |
Aaron Scott |
You don't have to agree. But apparently you have chosen to still be disagreeable.
Buchanan does have some strong theories. As a history teacher, I have learned that the untempered belief in "America the Good" is wrong. Even Lincoln, for instance, thought the Mexican-American War was unjust (as did U.S. Grant).
We certainly did wrong with slavery and the Native Americans.
We are the BEST...but we are by no means always good.
Yes, if America had sat the war out...and, yes, if England had not created an entangling alliance with Poland...things might have been very different. One thing Germany wanted from Poland was a piece of land that was largely German and, if I remember correctly, WANTED to be reunited with Germany.
The drawing of political lines after WWI not only set up a future war with Germany, but has played havoc with the Middle East.
Last edited by Aaron Scott on 12/17/15 8:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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12/17/15 5:36 am
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| Re: mytimewillcome... |
Resident Skeptic |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | You don't have to agree. But apparently you have chosen to still be disagreeable.
Buchanan does have some strong theories. As a history teacher, I have learned that the untempered belief in "America the Good" is wrong. Even Lincoln, for instance, thought the Mexican-American War was unjust (as did U.S. Grant).
We certainly did wrong with slavery and the Native Americans.
We are the BEST...but we are by no means always good.
Yes, if America had set the war out...and, yes, if England had not created an entangling alliance with Poland...things might have been very different. One thing Germany wanted from Poland was a piece of land that was largely German and, if I remember correctly, WANTED to be reunited with Germany.
The drawing of political lines after WWI not only set up a future war with Germany, but has played havoc with the Middle East. |
Good points.
America is not a war mongering nation per say, but we seem to allow ourselves to be sucked into things we really have no vital interest in being a part of.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
12/17/15 7:57 am
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UncleJD |
So
1. If we had just let Hitler do what he wanted, then everything would have worked out fine.
2. The Jews should have cooperated and let Hitler send them away from Europe because they didn't belong there anyway (after millennia)
3. Japan wouldn't have attacked us
4. Germany wouldn't have declared war on us the day after Japan attacked us. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3145
12/17/15 9:05 am
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| Uncle JD |
Aaron Scott |
The REST of the story is that we were actively helping Germany's enemies with the Lend-Lease program.
The REST of the story is that we had done about all we could to choke Japan out of natural resources.
The QUESTION is whether there would have been a World War II if we had allowed Hitler to RECLAIM land taken from it in WWI. The harshness of WWI's peace treaty against Germany seeded the Second World War, giving Hitler a platform.
NO ONE is remotely claiming that Hitler is somehow good or justified. Hitler was evil. We see this from what eventually happened. But Buchanan's point is that none of that had to happen. We and others had fallen for precisely what George Washington had warned against: the entangling alliances that lead us into wars started by others. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
12/17/15 10:56 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| UncleJD wrote: | So
1. If we had just let Hitler do what he wanted, then everything would have worked out fine.
2. The Jews should have cooperated and let Hitler send them away from Europe because they didn't belong there anyway (after millennia)
3. Japan wouldn't have attacked us
4. Germany wouldn't have declared war on us the day after Japan attacked us. |
Since my post did not even hint at such a thing, your comments make no sense. You obviously fit the description of the typical American who has been fed a very over-simplified version of events. You started your comments out by saying.....
| Quote: | | If we had just let Hitler do what he wanted |
Who is "we"? We (the USA) were not even involved at that point. Hitler was not asking anything of us. I was referring to requests Hitler was making of Poland that I'm sure you would find to be reasonable ones if you at all knew what they were and the background surrounding them. But you don't and probably do not care to, either.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI
Last edited by Resident Skeptic on 12/17/15 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
12/17/15 12:12 pm
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| Re: Uncle JD |
Resident Skeptic |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | The REST of the story is that we were actively helping Germany's enemies with the Lend-Lease program.
The REST of the story is that we had done about all we could to choke Japan out of natural resources.
The QUESTION is whether there would have been a World War II if we had allowed Hitler to RECLAIM land taken from it in WWI. The harshness of WWI's peace treaty against Germany seeded the Second World War, giving Hitler a platform.
NO ONE is remotely claiming that Hitler is somehow good or justified. Hitler was evil. We see this from what eventually happened. But Buchanan's point is that none of that had to happen. We and others had fallen for precisely what George Washington had warned against: the entangling alliances that lead us into wars started by others. |
I wholeheartedly agree.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
12/17/15 12:15 pm
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| Re: Uncle JD |
UncleJD |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | The REST of the story is that we were actively helping Germany's enemies with the Lend-Lease program.
The REST of the story is that we had done about all we could to choke Japan out of natural resources.
The QUESTION is whether there would have been a World War II if we had allowed Hitler to RECLAIM land taken from it in WWI. The harshness of WWI's peace treaty against Germany seeded the Second World War, giving Hitler a platform.
NO ONE is remotely claiming that Hitler is somehow good or justified. Hitler was evil. We see this from what eventually happened. But Buchanan's point is that none of that had to happen. We and others had fallen for precisely what George Washington had warned against: the entangling alliances that lead us into wars started by others. |
I wholeheartedly agree. |
"We" are the Western Allies and the USA, thought that was easy. Perhaps you thought I was talking about Acts-celerate?
Wow, apologies for America. I thought only Obama did that. "Oh its all America's fault for being involved financially with the countries that we had already been involved with for a hundred and fifty years" "Oh we were so mean to Japan, its really our fault that they tried to conquer the entire continent of Asia, we should have let them have all of the islands around them whether the natives wanted that or not".
Next do we hear how there wasn't really 6 million Jews killed?
I think you are mistaking Washington for Monroe. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3145
12/17/15 12:38 pm
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| Re: Uncle JD |
Resident Skeptic |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | The REST of the story is that we were actively helping Germany's enemies with the Lend-Lease program.
The REST of the story is that we had done about all we could to choke Japan out of natural resources.
The QUESTION is whether there would have been a World War II if we had allowed Hitler to RECLAIM land taken from it in WWI. The harshness of WWI's peace treaty against Germany seeded the Second World War, giving Hitler a platform.
NO ONE is remotely claiming that Hitler is somehow good or justified. Hitler was evil. We see this from what eventually happened. But Buchanan's point is that none of that had to happen. We and others had fallen for precisely what George Washington had warned against: the entangling alliances that lead us into wars started by others. |
I wholeheartedly agree. |
"We" are the Western Allies and the USA, thought that was easy. Perhaps you thought I was talking about Acts-celerate?
Wow, apologies for America. I thought only Obama did that. "Oh its all America's fault for being involved financially with the countries that we had already been involved with for a hundred and fifty years" "Oh we were so mean to Japan, its really our fault that they tried to conquer the entire continent of Asia, we should have let them have all of the islands around them whether the natives wanted that or not".
Next do we hear how there wasn't really 6 million Jews killed?
I think you are mistaking Washington for Monroe. |
At the point in history I was referring to, there were no Allies. We were not allied with any nation against Germany. That point seems to have escaped you. And considering the way things turned out, it would have been better to let the Japs dominate Asia instead of the communists. Our sacrifice was for naught. South Korea is the only country worth anything in that region.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
12/17/15 1:28 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| There's this incredible cognitive bias humans have that causes them to look at a certain action and predict with total certainty what would have been had that not been the case. Of course the truth is that a million other factors influence the course of history and that it's patently absurd to make a statement that X would have been so or Y wouldn't have been so had Z not been done. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/17/15 3:21 pm
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| UncleJD... |
Aaron Scott |
You can get a big "amen" out of your statement...but they are still wrong.
If you love America--and Jesus--you tell the truth. America DID do some things that were horrendously wrong. Like slavery, some could justify it at the time, but when you consider the things we've done that caused useless loss of life, it's a big score to settle.
Consider that if ISIS dropped a nuclear bomb on Atlanta and killed 100,000 people, we'd call it terrorism...but when we did it to Hiroshima, that's just war, right?
You don't get to kill civilians en masse and say, "Oops, collateral damage." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
12/17/15 3:23 pm
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| Re: UncleJD... |
Dave Dorsey |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | Consider that if ISIS dropped a nuclear bomb on Atlanta and killed 100,000 people, we'd call it terrorism...but when we did it to Hiroshima, that's just war, right? |
Sometimes folks say things that demonstrate such a total and complete lack of knowledge and context that you are able to readily say, "Okay, cool. Love that guy, but it's just not worth spending any more time rowing down this river."
Except when those folks are history teachers.  |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
12/17/15 4:38 pm
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| Dave |
Aaron Scott |
I challenge you to research the matters and not just accept the received history as told by one side.
Several of Truman's advisors and generals were against the dropping of the bomb.
General Lemay of the Air Force feltt he would have been tried for war crimes for some of the bombings of Japan.
Of course if you just want to blindly hold to the American version of the truth, go right ahead. I prefer THE truth...and not a faulty version of it. Still love America...just don't believe all I read. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
12/17/15 5:19 pm
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| Re: Dave |
Resident Skeptic |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | I challenge you to research the matters and not just accept the received history as told by one side.
Several of Truman's advisors and generals were against the dropping of the bomb.
General Lemay of the Air Force feltt he would have been tried for war crimes for some of the bombings of Japan.
Of course if you just want to blindly hold to the American version of the truth, go right ahead. I prefer THE truth...and not a faulty version of it. Still love America...just don't believe all I read. |
There is evidence Japan was trying to surrender before the bomb was dropped.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
12/17/15 6:03 pm
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| Re: Uncle JD |
UncleJD |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: |
At the point in history I was referring to, there were no Allies. We were not allied with any nation against Germany. That point seems to have escaped you. |
Nope, You mean a history teacher can't conceive of the idea that generations of people were still alive world-wide that felt they WERE still allies of England and France against Germany. It would be like forgetting that we had gone to war against Iraq in the 90s. I would suggest trying to insert yourself into the historical context of the day rather than make a silly statement that while technically true (on some paper somewhere), was FAR from the way people saw it then.
Last edited by UncleJD on 12/17/15 11:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3145
12/17/15 11:02 pm
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| Re: Dave |
UncleJD |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: |
There is evidence Japan was trying to surrender before the bomb was dropped. |
Tell that to the military that tried to silence their own Emperor before the surrender was broadcast. Tell that to the American Navy sitting off the coast of Okinawa who witnessed yet another vicious kamikaze attack hours after they surrendered.
Instead the truth is, there was much greater evidence that Japan would never surrender until an extremely violent and bloody war was fought on their main island. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3145
12/17/15 11:07 pm
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| Re: Uncle JD |
Resident Skeptic |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: |
At the point in history I was referring to, there were no Allies. We were not allied with any nation against Germany. That point seems to have escaped you. |
Nope, You mean a history teacher can't conceive of the idea that generations of people were still alive world-wide that felt they WERE still allies of England and France against Germany. It would be like forgetting that we had gone to war against Iraq in the 90s. I would suggest trying to insert yourself into the historical context of the day rather than make a silly statement that while technically true (on some paper somewhere), was FAR from the way people saw it then. |
Sorry, but you need to practice what you preach. Do you think Pat Buchanan, Aaron Scott and myself are just making this stuff up? You talk about context and with every word you demonstrate you don't understand the context of what lead up to Germany's invasion of Poland. Hitler didn't just wake up one day and say, "Hey, I think I'll invade Poland". I suggest you read Buchanan's book on this subject.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
12/18/15 3:53 am
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The Little Fat Pig |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Has the question about the systematic killing of 6 million Jews been answered? |
It was the blacks who did it, but the mainstream media won't report it. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 868
12/18/15 6:50 am
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| Re: Uncle JD |
Dave Dorsey |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Do you think Pat Buchanan, Aaron Scott and myself are just making this stuff up? |
Pretty much, yes. Buchanan's book uses exactly zero primary sources. You guys find secondary sources that kind of back up things you want to believe, and then stack them into a conspiracy theory about an event while ignoring a mountain of contradictory primary sources. I don't think you make things up intentionally, and I don't think Buchanan does either, but yes, that's pretty much exactly what you guys do. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
12/18/15 6:58 am
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